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This is one of the many problems associated with closed source drivers. (ATI related)

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Link.

As of driver version 8.29.6 support for the following products is no longer included:

* Radeon® 8500/9000/9100/9200/9250
* Mobility? Radeon® 9000/9100/9200
* Radeon® IGP 9000/9100/9200

Users with these products should use driver version 8.28.8

If the drivers were open source there would be a much better chance that they would continue to support the older products. Instead plenty of customers will be unable to upgrade.

Luckily in this case there is limited 3d acceleration in the open drivers (or so drag's posts lead me to believe, I've never tried or looked into it), so ATI owners aren't totally screwed. But what happens when another company does this. Maybe for wireless or chipset drivers?
 
That's pretty sucky... 🙁 Luckily I have a 9600 in my laptop but to those who have one of those cards they're stuck with the old drivers. 🙁
 
Originally posted by: magomago
didn't nvidia already do this? I know when i used a geforce 2 i had to have the nvidia-legacy drivers...

The latest drivers only support back to GeForce2 Go. 🙁

It is good to see they support more than just x86 though...
 
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
https://support.ati.com/ics/support/def...894&task=knowledge&questionID=737-1176">Link.</a>

As of driver version 8.29.6 support for the following products is no longer included:

* Radeon® 8500/9000/9100/9200/9250
* Mobility? Radeon® 9000/9100/9200
* Radeon® IGP 9000/9100/9200

Users with these products should use driver version 8.28.8

If the drivers were open source there would be a much better chance that they would continue to support the older products. Instead plenty of customers will be unable to upgrade.

Luckily in this case there is limited 3d acceleration in the open drivers (or so drag's posts lead me to believe, I've never tried or looked into it), so ATI owners aren't totally screwed. But what happens when another company does this. Maybe for wireless or chipset drivers?

I use the ATI 9200 on my Ibook with R200 DRI drivers. Good 3d and 2d support. Most X.org developers seem to use these cards since they are well known. I think they'll eventually move to the Intel IGP stuff.

I also have a X800 PCIe ATI card which is a R400 generation card and I use the R300 DRI drivers to motivate that into 3d acceleration.

On the the same motherboard I have the X800 I was running the Intel GMA 950 IGP. 3d and 2d works out of the box for that.

The Intel IGP GMA x3000 should technically offer mid-range descrite card performance. It'll be on the Intel G965 motherboards. (there are low end versions for Q965 and such that don't have all the same features) It uses Tile based rendering to maximize the amount of bandwidth aviable from the shared memory stuff. 8 pipelines that are dynamicaly allocated for pixel, texture, shading. It also supports hardware acceleration vertex, shading, T&L, and antrostopic filtering. The current GMA cards do that stuff mostly on the host's CPU... The GPU core is 667mhz. This on paper puts the x3000 on par with Nvidia cards from 2 generations ago... (so it would be low/midrange cards of today) However reviews are not very good as it seems the GMA 950 outperforms it on Windows XP. This is blamed on poor beta drivers that don't take advantage of the hardware features. I haven't seen any benchmarks or whatnot with Linux, but the drivers are only realy aviable via CVS at this point.


As far as going into the future.. There is rumors that Intel is going back into the discrete video card market. Something like the GMA x3000, but with dedicated memory and more pipelines should offer some pretty decent performance. This would be nice for open source distro users as would be supported by X.org and all the platforms that use it.

And the future of ATI and AMD remains to be seen. Both AMD and Intel are making noises about integrating GPU features back into the CPU with future multicore designs and ATI has made a announcement that they are pursuing 'GPGPU' for "General Proccessing Graphic Proccessor Units" for scientific computing and clustering.

One would think that this would lead to open specs on how to use these GPUs since it doesn't realy make any sense to hide how to program for CPUs... but it doesn't realy make sense to hide how to program for video cards either. So what the f do I know?

Maybe in a few years we will all be back to doing software rendering just with multiple cpu cores that are just as fast at rendering that stuff as any video card. Which is nice since software rendering gives better results and is much more flexible. There are a lot of Open* stuff for graphics besides just OpenGL...

Screw propriatory drivers. I've sworn them off, too much of a PITA. Gave away my Nvidia card to my little brother.
 
Originally posted by: SleepWalkerX
I think those older ATi cards already have open-source driver support.

But what happens when they drop support for cards that aren't fully supported by open source drivers?

Or other companies offering closed source drivers stop supporting their older products?

Why isn't there PowerPC or Sparc support for any of these drivers?

EDIT: My point is that this isn't about what's supported where by whom, it's this is one of the dangers by giving up and letting companies sell you something without telling you anything about it.
 
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Originally posted by: SleepWalkerX
I think those older ATi cards already have open-source driver support.

But what happens when they drop support for cards that aren't fully supported by open source drivers?

Yep. Current generation of ATI cards are the r500. And nvidia cards.

Older Nvidia cards already have very little support. There is 'legacy' nvidia drivers for older stuff, but they aren't kept up to date. They are just modified older drivers that can compile against newer kernels.

They'll never support AIGLX or work realy that well with newer applications and games.. although cards that are decently popular and have open source drivers are support the newest APIs and features that other Mesa-based drivers support.

And 2d support for open source nvidia drivers aren't that hot. 2d support for ATI r500 cards is non-existant. A X.org hacker programmed rudementary 2d drivers for the r500 cards, but he is constrained by NDA for what he does for a living and ATI is ignoring his request to allow X.org to incorporate them.

The way things are going when ATI gets tired of supporting these older stuff then there will be no open source drivers for them. There are basic efforts to reverse engineer Nvidia cards but even less is known how they work then the newer ATI stuff.

Also for these cards (r500 and nvidia) if your not using x86 or x86-64 your SOL. If your not using Linux or FreeBSD (in the case of Nvidia they have support for FreeBSD) your SOL. They aren't ever going to support OpenBSD or any of the other dozens of operating systems and hardware combinations that Free software users can enjoy.

No Sparc. There is a company right now that is selling a 16-way ARM computer that runs Debian that uses about 50 watts or so of power total. Nvidia or ATI will never care about that. Embedded platforms can benifit from these sort of things also, but can't use them becuase of their propriatory drivers.

 
Originally posted by: drag
Also for these cards (r500 and nvidia) if your not using x86 or x86-64 your SOL. If your not using Linux or FreeBSD (in the case of Nvidia they have support for FreeBSD) your SOL. They aren't ever going to support OpenBSD or any of the other dozens of operating systems and hardware combinations that Free software users can enjoy.

OpenBSD doesn't have the kernel DRI stuff anyhow. 😉

No Sparc. There is a company right now that is selling a 16-way ARM computer that runs Debian that uses about 50 watts or so of power total. Nvidia or ATI will never care about that. Embedded platforms can benifit from these sort of things also, but can't use them becuase of their propriatory drivers.

Out of curiosity, how do embedded systems (obviously I'm not counting game consoles 😉) benefit from hardware accelerated graphics? Am I thinking too small?
 
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Originally posted by: drag
Also for these cards (r500 and nvidia) if your not using x86 or x86-64 your SOL. If your not using Linux or FreeBSD (in the case of Nvidia they have support for FreeBSD) your SOL. They aren't ever going to support OpenBSD or any of the other dozens of operating systems and hardware combinations that Free software users can enjoy.

OpenBSD doesn't have the kernel DRI stuff anyhow. 😉

It will eventually. And when it does those open source drivers will be waiting for it. 🙂

Anyways the actual DRI drivers is userspace. For examples r300_dri.so for the r300 dri driver. The DRM driver is what resides in Linux-kernel-land. I think it's the same for other platforms.

No Sparc. There is a company right now that is selling a 16-way ARM computer that runs Debian that uses about 50 watts or so of power total. Nvidia or ATI will never care about that. Embedded platforms can benifit from these sort of things also, but can't use them becuase of their propriatory drivers.

Out of curiosity, how do embedded systems (obviously I'm not counting game consoles 😉) benefit from hardware accelerated graphics? Am I thinking too small?

Well even cell phones have games now. Most 'embedded systems' aren't realy all that embedded anymore anyways. Not like the traditional programmed to do one thing running on bare hardware stuff anymore, or using software and general proccessor as a cheap substitute for hardware logic.

Nowadays even most simple devices are moving to a stripped down general purpose system running on a low resource computer.

For instance TI now has a dual core ARM system that seems to be kinda popular. It uses one core for general purpose stuff and the other core for sound and graphics proccessing. Typically you'll find Linux on that stuff. (got one in my GP2x.. capable of playing mame versions and emulation sega genesis as well as movie and music stuff. Runs linux)

So pretty much any thing that has to deal with a human interface I figure can benifit from this sort of stuff. Specialized cores for graphics acceleration probably can lead to better battery usage and more fancy interfaces for improved UI and marketability.

ATI sells a stripped down r200 core for embedded work that people use.
 
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Originally posted by: SleepWalkerX
I think those older ATi cards already have open-source driver support.

But what happens when they drop support for cards that aren't fully supported by open source drivers?

Well I assume they only dropped proprietary support because there had already been open-source support for a while. I think ATi actually helped these projects that write open-source drivers.

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Or other companies offering closed source drivers stop supporting their older products?

Don't buy their products if they don't provide the kind of support you need. Buy Intel stuff.

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Why isn't there PowerPC or Sparc support for any of these drivers?

Same as above. ^

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
EDIT: My point is that this isn't about what's supported where by whom, it's this is one of the dangers by giving up and letting companies sell you something without telling you anything about it.

I agree, that's why you should always research a product before you buy it and buy whatever suits you. But in the case of this news, its really a non-issue since there is a better solution in almost every way (not sure about performance though).
 
Originally posted by: drag
It will eventually. And when it does those open source drivers will be waiting for it. 🙂

Anyways the actual DRI drivers is userspace. For examples r300_dri.so for the r300 dri driver. The DRM driver is what resides in Linux-kernel-land. I think it's the same for other platforms.

Ignorance in acronyms on my part. 🙂

I think one of the devs was working on it for a while but got bored.

Well even cell phones have games now. Most 'embedded systems' aren't realy all that embedded anymore anyways. Not like the traditional programmed to do one thing running on bare hardware stuff anymore, or using software and general proccessor as a cheap substitute for hardware logic.

Nowadays even most simple devices are moving to a stripped down general purpose system running on a low resource computer.

For instance TI now has a dual core ARM system that seems to be kinda popular. It uses one core for general purpose stuff and the other core for sound and graphics proccessing. Typically you'll find Linux on that stuff.

So pretty much any thing that has to deal with a human interface I figure can benifit from this sort of stuff. Specialized cores for graphics acceleration probably can lead to better battery usage and more fancy interfaces for improved UI and marketability.

ATI sells a stripped down r200 core for embedded work that people use.

Ahh, I was just thinking too small in the category of embedded hardware. I've got to get out of the server room. 😛
 
Originally posted by: SleepWalkerX
I agree, that's why you should always research a product before you buy it and buy whatever suits you. But in the case of this news, its really a non-issue since there is a better solution in almost every way (not sure about performance though).

nVidia doesn't support older products that aren't supported fully by open source stuff. What's to say ATI won't do it?

Intel's stuff isn't entirely open source last I heard, plus they don't release documentation. 🙁
 
Oh, and I do research the stuff I use. But I'm still confused why people let hardware companies get away with handing out "blackbox" hardware. We bought the stuff, we should be able to easily find out how to use it.
 
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Originally posted by: SleepWalkerX
I agree, that's why you should always research a product before you buy it and buy whatever suits you. But in the case of this news, its really a non-issue since there is a better solution in almost every way (not sure about performance though).

nVidia doesn't support older products that aren't supported fully by open source stuff. What's to say ATI won't do it?

Intel's stuff isn't entirely open source last I heard, plus they don't release documentation. 🙁

They have a binary module for doing support for things like Macrovision content protection. Drivers work great without it.

And Intel worked with Tungsten Graphics (company founded by Xfree devs) with documentation released under NDA. This is par for the course when dealing with X.org, the XFree86 people were very happy to work under NDA's. Kinda like a tradition. When ATI helped out with the old 8500 cards (IIRC) they did that and that's what nvidia does for the 'nv' 2d driver.
 
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Originally posted by: SleepWalkerX
I agree, that's why you should always research a product before you buy it and buy whatever suits you. But in the case of this news, its really a non-issue since there is a better solution in almost every way (not sure about performance though).

nVidia doesn't support older products that aren't supported fully by open source stuff. What's to say ATI won't do it?

Sorry, I'm having a brain fart right now. Are you saying that Nvidia doesn't have support for their older cards? They have proprietary legacy drivers and proprietary drivers they keep up with right now.

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Intel's stuff isn't entirely open source last I heard, plus they don't release documentation. 🙁

http://www.intellinuxgraphics.org/index.html
 
Originally posted by: SleepWalkerX
Sorry, I'm having a brain fart right now. Are you saying that Nvidia doesn't have support for their older cards? They have proprietary legacy drivers and proprietary drivers they keep up with right now.

The current drivers (latest release) only support from the GeForce2 Go and newer. I'm not interested in old drivers.


I feel like an idiot, I can't find the hardware documentation on that site. Any chance you can provide a link?
 
I was snooping around and stumbled across somebody that did a benchmark for the GMA x3000 under Linux.
http://www.oakcourt.dyndns.org/~andrew/x3000_benchmark.html

Information on his machine is aviable:
http://www.oakcourt.dyndns.org/%7Eandrew/wiki/index.php/DebianOnIntel965
(kinda interesting. He got suspend to ram working well in a desktop)

You can find the benchmarking tool at:
http://ut2k3botbench.sourceforge.net/

And I found some results here of various machines so you can see how it stacks up:
http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/umark/

I suppose I'll have to download the app when I get home. But whatever. I thought somebody might be curious about how well it works. Of course it's all very unreliable information at this point. Very beta drivers and all.
 
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