Thinking about some options moving from a nice receiver to pre/pro...

[Rio Rebel]

I have a Denon 3805 and Paradigm Monitor7's and CC370 center (v.4, before the merge with Performance series), and I'm pretty happy with the setup. I also have Mini Monitors on the side surrounds and the Cinema surrounds on the back...I'm not focusing on anything but the front stage right now, though.

I have been kicking the idea around for a while, and now a friend has loaned me his amp (Denon POA 8300, 3 channel, 120wpc). It's a very nice amp, and I can tell an improvement in sound...but not a dramatic one. My receiver is very nice, but it doesn't have HDMI audio capabilities. I have three devices that I'd like to send multichannel to the receiver (a Blu-Ray player, and HD-DVD player, and a DVD-A/SACD player). So here's my consideration:

1. Buy an HDMI-capable receiver and use the amp for the front stage. I could get by with amp in the receiver since it would only be pushing the surrounds and rear, but I'm very concerned with stepping backwards in signal processing. The 3805 is a very nice processor, and moving to something like the Onkyo 605 with the Denon amp would be a step forward in power to the speakers but a step back in signal processing.

2. Keep my current setup, and add the amp. It would be about $300. My issue here is that I still wouldn't have HDMI audio, the gain isn't that dramatic to my ears, and finding space in the component rack would be a little difficult.

3. Keep current setup and be happy, until I am ready to go pre/pro or get a 3808 or the equivalent.

I am having trouble with this one, partly because I don't want to put a lot of money in my setup - I am rather happy with it. But right now, my SACD/DVD-A player is in the closet, and I can only play DVD-A through my Panasonic BD10 Blu-Ray player. And my HD-DVD player I just use with digital optical, so I'm losing the ability to play the advanced audio formats there.

Thoughts?

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Seems like your primary concern is that you're not getting the full abilities of your HD players so I think that would be a primary concern?

http://www.outlawaudio.com/
and
http://www.emotiva.com/

Both have new pre-pro units coming out by the summer afaik and the prediction for those is going to be really high bang for the buck sound quality.

Last time I checked the LMC-2 (now UMC-1?) from Emotiva was aimed at a $700 pricepoint?
Features mentioned in this thread:
http://av123forum.com/showthread.php?t=30338

There's also an Emotiva forum, but I haven't really gone there at all to get information from them directly.

I'm not as sure on the Outlaw features or timeline for their 970/990 replacements.

If I was looking at upgrading in the near future, I'd try to wait it out until those were released to see if they live up to the hype.

 

[Rio Rebel]

Well, I'm getting full use of the Blu-Ray player. It is taking up the analog inputs on the receiver. And it also has DVD-A capability, so my current setup is only lacking two areas: HD-DVD advanced audio (no HDMI capability on the receiver), and no SACD multichannel (I have a Sony carousel DVD player that can output SACD 2 channel to my receiver via analog, but my preferred Denon universal player is put away since my analog inputs on the receiver are taken up by the Blu-Ray player).

I have been satisfied for a while now, but this is probably the next issue I will address. An HDMI receiver would solve the problems above. And I've always been interested in separate amplification, so I may start by buying this amp and then moving toward a new processor for the next round. I would still need something to push the surrounds and rears, though, which means either another 4 channel amp or a receiver.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
Well, I'm getting full use of the Blu-Ray player. It is taking up the analog inputs on the receiver. And it also has DVD-A capability, so my current setup is only lacking two areas: HD-DVD advanced audio (no HDMI capability on the receiver), and no SACD multichannel (I have a Sony carousel DVD player that can output SACD 2 channel to my receiver via analog, but my preferred Denon universal player is put away since my analog inputs on the receiver are taken up by the Blu-Ray player).

I have been satisfied for a while now, but this is probably the next issue I will address. An HDMI receiver would solve the problems above. And I've always been interested in separate amplification, so I may start by buying this amp and then moving toward a new processor for the next round. I would still need something to push the surrounds and rears, though, which means either another 4 channel amp or a receiver.

And I suppose that having a pre-pro, a 3 channel amp, and then using your Denon for the surrounds/rears would take up a tad too much space

 

[Rio Rebel]

Yes, in fact there will have to be some trade-offs to use the amp and the Denon...adding yet another pre/pro would be even more challenging. But even moreso, the money is a factor. I am trying to keep this endeavor somewhat cost effective. My original idea was to spend around $800-$1000 for some used amps and a cheap HDMI capable receiver. But I think I can rule that out.

What do you think about this Denon amp for $300? That sounded like a good price to me.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
Yes, in fact there will have to be some trade-offs to use the amp and the Denon...adding yet another pre/pro would be even more challenging. But even moreso, the money is a factor. I am trying to keep this endeavor somewhat cost effective. My original idea was to spend around $800-$1000 for some used amps and a cheap HDMI capable receiver. But I think I can rule that out.

What do you think about this Denon amp for $300? That sounded like a good price to me.

Well you've heard it so I guess you'd be a better position to decide if it's worth it

I know there are a lot of nice amps in that pricerange used, but they tend to be stereo rather than 3-channel. I'm not sure where Denon fits in for the range of quality for amps since they tend to concentrate so much on receivers.

Also before you mentioned the Onkyo 605... that one doesn't have pre-outs so you'd have to step up the budget a bit to get pre-outs to use an amp and still get HDMI audio.

 

[Operandi]

In regards to the amp, if you are trying to keep the price down going with a used amp from Audiogon would be good way to go. Amp technology doesn't change as fast as fast as source, or speaker tech dose. For the most part a great sounding amp from 5-10 years ago doesn't lose out on much and is still a great sounding amp today. Just a few examples; here is a really nice Outlaw and Adcom.

 

[Rio Rebel]

Thanks for the input.

It looks to me that this isn't the time to jump. I may be willing to buy a processor/used amp combination at some point in the future, when I can get all the benefits I want. I just don't think I hear a $300 difference between my 3805 and using the amp for the front stage.

I don't see many Denon amps out there. Is this considered a good one, or do people typically stay away from Denon for amps? I don't know enough about them to know their value. I have a very good friend who is offering me this one, and I know I can trust him and he's local. But if it's just an average deal, I think I'd rather wait to make this move.

 

[Operandi]

Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
Thanks for the input.

It looks to me that this isn't the time to jump. I may be willing to buy a processor/used amp combination at some point in the future, when I can get all the benefits I want. I just don't think I hear a $300 difference between my 3805 and using the amp for the front stage.

I don't see many Denon amps out there. Is this considered a good one, or do people typically stay away from Denon for amps? I don't know enough about them to know their value. I have a very good friend who is offering me this one, and I know I can trust him and he's local. But if it's just an average deal, I think I'd rather wait to make this move.

Is this the amp in question? If so that looks like a really nice amp, and an excellent deal. Having said that you may need better speakers to precive a large difference.

 

[Rio Rebel]

Yes, that's the one. And I agree about the speakers, but I don't see myself changing speakers for a long time. I'm very satisfied with them.

I think the 3805 is a nice match to the speakers, but I can tell an improvement with the amp. Monitor 7's (up until version 4, which mine are) are not highly efficient, and benefit from more power. A friend in the industry told me that one of the things Paradigm did when they joined the Monitor and Performance line was to make them more efficient, because every time someone demo's the Paradigm Monitors against something like Klipsch, the Klipsch would be louder and it was hard for the customer to accept that this doesn't mean better.

 

[Twinpeaksr]

I have a matched set of Monitors (7, Mini, ADP370 and ADP370 all pre version 4), your speakers can sound phenominal with more Power. I am running a Marantz 7400 right now and had issues when using HD disks, I took the front 2 channels and put them on an Anthem PVA2, and it was a great difference! If you are in the $1000 range, look at an Anthem PVA5 or check eBay (or whatever) for a MCA5 (will be my next purchase), you will be very happy with the results.

Also make sure you have a heavy gage connection from speakers to amp, I recommend getting some 12ga THHN wire and bi wiring, I had a significant improvement in sound quality going from single 16ga to biwire 12ga.

 

[Pacfanweb]

A great amp you can find on Audiogon is Anthem. They make up to a 5 channel model. I paid about 600 for mine there about 4 years ago. Very pleased with it.....it's really powerful, too. 250/wpc to all 5.

Denon is known for having a slightly different color to their sound of at least their receivers...not sure about their amps but I figure they'd be the same.

I was jonesing for a new receiver a few years back, before I went with a B&K preamp, and looked at Denon receivers. They had all the bells and whistles....but they simply did not produce sound as accurately as my NAD I had at the time. The store I was at sold all of the ones mentioned....I was able to test them side by side. There was a definite difference in the sound.
The NAD just had a "warmer", more realistic sound. Hard to describe unless you heard it, but all the guys at the store agreed and had told me the same before I bought. My salesman at the time had actually just bought the top NAD receiver and loved it. That's what I would've bought had I not gone with separates.

 

[Rio Rebel]

Problem is, I'm not really looking for another receiver from an audio aspect. I'm happy with mine. I just want HDMI capability.

I'm really torn on this Denon amp. It sounds good, seems to be a good price, and I'm buying it from a close friend so I know it's in great shape. But I just don't have room for it in my shelves (I'd have to take out my cd changer), and I think I'd rather put that $300 somewhere else (like toward a 1080p projector).

Tough call.

 

[Muadib]

Although your friend is giving you a good price on that amp, I don't see how you can buy it. You've mentioned that space is at a premium, and if you buy it, you will still need another amp in order to go to a 5.1 setup.

If I were you, I'd look into getting a used 5.1 amp for now, and start researching the new gear
thats due out soon. Do you have a price range yet?

 

[Twinpeaksr]

IF all you need in HDMI, just get a basic switch, you can even get ones that separate out the audio bit stream for $250. save the rest of the cash for what you really need/want.

 

[Rio Rebel]

I don't really have a price range. I was just collecting some people's thoughts.

As to the hdmi, I already have a switch. I only wanted the hdmi for lossless audio like TrueHD or uncompressed PCM, since you can't send them through digital coax or optical.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Your Panny Blu Ray has analog outputs, right? Does the Denon have analog inputs? If so, you can get lossless that way.
Don't need HDMI...maybe someone makes an analog switch you can hook them both to?

 

[Rio Rebel]

Read the third post in this thread.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
Your Panny Blu Ray has analog outputs, right? Does the Denon have analog inputs? If so, you can get lossless that way.
Don't need HDMI...maybe someone makes an analog switch you can hook them both to?

Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
Well, I'm getting full use of the Blu-Ray player. It is taking up the analog inputs on the receiver. And it also has DVD-A capability, so my current setup is only lacking two areas: HD-DVD advanced audio (no HDMI capability on the receiver), and no SACD multichannel (I have a Sony carousel DVD player that can output SACD 2 channel to my receiver via analog, but my preferred Denon universal player is put away since my analog inputs on the receiver are taken up by the Blu-Ray player).

EDIT: guess we came back at the same time Rio Rebel

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
Read the third post in this thread.

Okay, but is there such thing as an analog switcher? It'd be cheaper than a new receiver is there was. Just plug all your inputs into it, then the switcher into the receiver.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
Read the third post in this thread.

Okay, but is there such thing as an analog switcher? It'd be cheaper than a new receiver is there was. Just plug all your inputs into it, then the switcher into the receiver.

That's still going to leave him without the HD-DVD in the optimal configuration unless he has one with multichannel analog output.

 

[Rio Rebel]

...which I don't (although the hd-dvd player with analog outs is not that expensive).

I am still giving consideration to the 6-input analog switcher. Monoprice has one that is remote controlled that looks like it will work. At some point, though you have to be concerned with all that traffic/connections for the signal to travel, particularly since the point to all this is to used advanced audio for higher clarity.

Thanks for the thoughts, guys. Feel free to keep them coming.

I am pretty sure I am not going to get the amp now. I just don't want to sacrifice the space right now. I will hold off until I see a 5 or 7 channel amp that does the trick for me.