Thinking about replacing CRT with a LCD

[w0w0w0w0w]

I am thinking about replacing my "Samsung SAMTRON 75E(M) (Plus)" 15.7 inch CRT.

I use the 1024x768 @ 85Hz mode and my primary use is "hardcore gaming". I do prefer 85Hz modes over 60Hz modes on this CRT.

I tested my dads Samsung SM226BW (S-panel, I think) and although it is a beautiful large display, I was a little disapointed as I thought I could see some bluring during gameplay in addition to a low refresh rate (Probably 60Hz) when comparing to my CRT.

I was looking at the LG L227WT (not-glossy UK version) as the replacement as it seems to have good input lag and response time.

Do I risk being disappointed with the LG L227WT compared to my CRT given my observations of the SM226BW?

Are there any other options for me or am I just going to have to accept that to benefit from a brighter and larger display I must sacrifice motion quality?

EDIT: On both Windows Vista and Windows 7, I can't play Counter Strike : Source because it is far too dark on this CRT. It works fine in Windows XP but I don't want to limit myself in this way just because of this old CRT. It's somthing about colour management and drivers in XP vs Vista/7.

 

[Genx87]

Hehe your handle is exactly my reaction to seeing somebody still using a 15" CRT

 

[error8]

60 Hz refresh rate for an LCD monitor is enough. You don't need 85 Hz to be able to stare into it for hours, without your eyes bleeding, as it happens on CRTs. In my opinion, almost any LCD out there will be much better then your 20 years old CRT display. Buy it and don't look back. Your CRT has no advantage over that LG monitor.

 

[BFG10K]

Originally posted by: error8

60 Hz refresh rate for an LCD monitor is enough.

Not for 3D gaming it's not, especially not for someone used to 85 Hz.

To the OP: look at one of the true 120 Hz LCDs from Samsung or Viewsonic. They'll hit 120 Hz @ 1680 x 1050 so you'll get a resolution and refresh rate upgrade over your CRT.

Here's a review of one:

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articl.../samsung-sm2233rz.html

After holding on to your CRT for so long, I don't think you'd tolerate a regular 60 Hz LCD.

 

[error8]

Originally posted by: BFG10K


After holding on to your CRT for so long, I don't think you'd tolerate a regular 60 Hz LCD.

Why are you saying this? When I got my 60 Hz LCD, it felt like it had the same effect on my eyes as my old 100Hz CRT. Or are you referring at "ghosting"?

 

[Arkaign]

If gaming is your *only* concern, and you have the space for it, a quality 21" - 24" CRT can be found very very cheaply, and they are still pretty much unbeatable for the pure speed available with a high refresh rate.

I second BFG's advice above. I have a nice 24" Dell to play with, but I still notice some pretty big limitations in twitch-FPS situations compared to what I experienced previously with large CRTs.

Negatives to CRT's : big, heavy, power-hungry, not 'cool'.

 

[Mem]

Not for 3D gaming it's not, especially not for someone used to 85 Hz.

I use to run 85Hz and 100Hz on my CRT in the old days ,however I find 60Hz gaming fine on a fast TN panel,personally otherthings like colour quality,viewing angles will probably be more of an issue then refresh rate IMHO,anyway its awesome playing FPS games in widescreen mode on my LCD,as a beta games tester myself I'm really use to widescreen LCD gaming now (1920x1080@60Hz in DVI mode)playing games like CS,DoD,TFC etc..
End of the day its a personal thing with regards to refresh rate,however in my case refresh rate is not an issue at all when it comes to buying a LCD.

Another point quite a few LCDs can do 75Hz too(however I have yet to see any difference personally).

Last point there is always some time to adjust for the user in question going from CRT to LCD regardless of refresh rate in question.

 

[error8]

Originally posted by: Arkaign

Negatives to CRT's : big, heavy, power-hungry, not 'cool'.

and eye destroyers.

 

[gramboh]

60hz LCDs are not ideal for high end twitch gaming (CS, Quake 1v1 etc with vsync on at 100/120hz), you will definitely notice it can be harder to aim quickly in some situations versus a 100/120hz CRT. I haven't tried the 120hz LCDs personally but they sound like a good option. This is a very specific part of gaming that applies to some people, so the argument that 60hz is fine doesn't work.

I used to be CRT only @ 100/120hz, but was sick of dealing with the downsides (blur over time, bad colours over time etc) and picked up a Dell 24in SPVA panel a few years ago. After a few months I found I was pretty much as good in FPS games as I was with the CRT, it just took time to get used to it, although I still think the ideal display is the Sony 24inch CRT if you can get one in perfect condition.

 

[Mem]

Originally posted by: gramboh
60hz LCDs are not ideal for high end twitch gaming (CS, Quake 1v1 etc with vsync on at 100/120hz), you will definitely notice it can be harder to aim quickly in some situations versus a 100/120hz CRT. I haven't tried the 120hz LCDs personally but they sound like a good option. This is a very specific part of gaming that applies to some people, so the argument that 60hz is fine doesn't work.

I used to be CRT only @ 100/120hz, but was sick of dealing with the downsides (blur over time, bad colours over time etc) and picked up a Dell 24in SPVA panel a few years ago. After a few months I found I was pretty much as good in FPS games as I was with the CRT, it just took time to get used to it, although I still think the ideal display is the Sony 24inch CRT if you can get one in perfect condition.

This brings up another point,I use a Razer Diamondback 3G mouse and find it excellent with my fast TN panel even at 60Hz rate,mouse can play an important role too in gaming.

End of the day I guess its what you are comfortable with,I have no serious complaints as a long term gamer.

 

[w0w0w0w0w]

Originally posted by: Mem
mouse can play an important role too in gaming.

Oh absolutely. I would say this is the one most important factor for my gaming. I bought a Logitech G5 in 2004 and it broke. I "upgraded" to a Logitech G9 and my "skills" instantly decreased... I had to buy a G5 again.

I think I might just get the LG L227WT and hope that I get used to it.

Originally posted by: error8
and eye destroyers.

I have recently been diagnosed with an eye disease and it's probably paranoia or whatever but I feel that getting a larger monitor(Less eye strain) that isn't CRT(Radiation... O.K. low levels...) might be more healthy for me.

 

[error8]

Originally posted by: w0w0w0w0w

Originally posted by: error8
and eye destroyers.

I have recently been diagnosed with an eye disease and it's probably paranoia or whatever but I feel that getting a larger monitor(Less eye strain) that isn't CRT(Radiation... O.K. low levels...) might be more healthy for me.

Totally true. Looking at an LCD is like looking at the wall. There is no eye strain whatsoever, on a good LCD panel. This was the biggest and most important upgrade for me, when I switched from my old CRT to the LCD.

 

[brblx]

LCD's can still cause eyestrain. the only way to totally eliminate it is with a natural, non-backlit source like e-ink.

and i'm not sure why LCD refresh rate is even being discussed. it's irrelevant.

the reason for using 75-85hz or more on a CRT was to reduce flickering that was noticeable for many at 60hz. LCD's do not have this issue- their backlight is not provided by the same mechanism that renders the picture (it is effectively constant), and the actual pixels of the LCD screen are not required to update at a specified rate. thusly, the picture is stable and devoid of flicker.

all the 60hz refresh rate of an LCD controls is how fast the video card can shovel frames to the monitor. besides the fact that it's nearly if not entirely impossible to detect more than 60fps, if your card is making more than that you're probably going to turn vsync on to get rid of the horrid tearing.

you're all taking about response time, it would seem. and as long as that's less than a genuine 10ms (not grey to grey), it should be a pretty moot point.

 

[nyker96]

still on 15"? man, I throw away my oldie 17" mag CRT 2 years ago and didn't even bother selling that one. yeah good pick on samsung, i got a 17" samsung, how a backup, it works perfectly.

 

[w0w0w0w0w]

Originally posted by: brblx
and i'm not sure why LCD refresh rate is even being discussed. it's irrelevant.

the reason for using 75-85hz or more on a CRT was to reduce flickering that was noticeable for many at 60hz. LCD's do not have this issue- their backlight is not provided by the same mechanism that renders the picture (it is effectively constant), and the actual pixels of the LCD screen are not required to update at a specified rate. thusly, the picture is stable and devoid of flicker.

all the 60hz refresh rate of an LCD controls is how fast the video card can shovel frames to the monitor. besides the fact that it's nearly if not entirely impossible to detect more than 60fps, if your card is making more than that you're probably going to turn vsync on to get rid of the horrid tearing..

Well I was comparing my CRT at 85Hz to my dads LCD at 60Hz and I thought I was seeing more intermediate motion on the CRT.

Also, I turned on V-Sync on the LCD and got horrible "mouse-to-screen-movement"/ input lag... so I would likely choose screen tearing over that. I don't know if things were set up incorecctly or what... (I'm pretty sure the same thing happens with V-Sync on CRT last time I tried...)

 

[Hadsus]

Originally posted by: error8

Originally posted by: Arkaign

Negatives to CRT's : big, heavy, power-hungry, not 'cool'.

and eye destroyers.

Funny....I use a 22" NEC Multisync CRT at work that's about ten years old and go home to a two year old 21 inch Samsung 215tw LCD (S-PVA). Both are good monitors and I have zero problems. My eyes haven't changed much at all over the years.

I do miss the quickness of the CRT when gaming. It's a bit of an adjustment at first as you easily notice the blurring. Unfortunately in the LCD world you are faced with the tradeoff of quick TN panels that have image issues and more expensive panels that look great with great view angles but aren't as quick as the TNs. No, things are not so rosy with LCDs. I'd stil be using my NEC CRT at home if it weren't for an incompatible connection it has with my 8800 GT card.

 

[Mem]

Originally posted by: Hadsus

Originally posted by: error8

Originally posted by: Arkaign

Negatives to CRT's : big, heavy, power-hungry, not 'cool'.

and eye destroyers.

Funny....I use a 22" NEC Multisync CRT at work that's about ten years old and go home to a two year old 21 inch Samsung 215tw LCD (S-PVA). Both are good monitors and I have zero problems. My eyes haven't changed much at all over the years.

I do miss the quickness of the CRT when gaming. It's a bit of an adjustment at first as you easily notice the blurring. Unfortunately in the LCD world you are faced with the tradeoff of quick TN panels that have image issues and more expensive panels that look great with great view angles but aren't as quick as the TNs. No, things are not so rosy with LCDs. I'd stil be using my NEC CRT at home if it weren't for an incompatible connection it has with my 8800 GT card.

Works both ways, CRTs are bulky use more power and heat,even the best have poor geometry compared to LCD,also CRT lose focus sharpness/quality over time so you may not notice it at first,throw in the pixel sharpness via DVI/HDMI on LCD (even the best CRTs look blurred next to this) ,I would never go back to CRT.

Throw in the widescreen gaming experience via 16:10 or 16:9 LCDs too which very few CRTs have.

 

[Mem]

Originally posted by: w0w0w0w0w

Originally posted by: Mem
mouse can play an important role too in gaming.

Oh absolutely. I would say this is the one most important factor for my gaming. I bought a Logitech G5 in 2004 and it broke. I "upgraded" to a Logitech G9 and my "skills" instantly decreased... I had to buy a G5 again.

I think I might just get the LG L227WT and hope that I get used to it.

Originally posted by: error8
and eye destroyers.

I have recently been diagnosed with an eye disease and it's probably paranoia or whatever but I feel that getting a larger monitor(Less eye strain) that isn't CRT(Radiation... O.K. low levels...) might be more healthy for me.

Going from 1024x768 res on your 15" to 1680x1050 on 22" widescreen LCD should be an enjoyable upgrade IMHO ,once you adjust to LCD.

 

[Stas]

I hate using LCDs @60Hz for anything more than typing. The mouse just feels sluggish, fast FPS are horrible. I literally lose up to 30% accuracy in CSS and QL from playing at 60Hz. That said, almost all LCDs can be forced to work at 75Hz. I've done that to my 906BW Samsung, 2253BW Samsung, and my wife's 20" LG (can't remember the model). It feels MUCH better. BTW, I use PowerStrip for both ATi and nVidia cards - the only tool I've found that actually overrides the signal output in DVI bypassing all the driver BS, AND it's reliable (given the low level of the software function, you can easily kill your monitor though! use brain.sys and hands.dll ). I also hate the artifacts from response compensation, so always turn that off. Still, those LCDs don't compare to my 19" Philips CRT and my Sony CRT that can do 120Hz @ 1024x768 and 100@ 1280x960. Beautiful image, colors, along with perfect response. Unfortunately, the Sony is over 6 years old and has some serious use behind its belt, so games look pretty dark (just as mentioned about CSS, tunnels on Dust are pitch black). Can't beat the brightness of an LCD. And widescreen (given the game's proper support) is just too nice to give up. Looking forward to more 120Hz LCD models. Hoping to pick one up this summer.

 

[Stas]

Also, about the eye strain. Given that you use at least NATIVE refresh rate (CRT: 85Hz @1024x768, etc, LCDs: 60Hz), your problem will be focusing at a set distance for a long period of time. Same can be achieved by reading a book for 5 hours straight. So take breaks for 3-5 min every 2 hours or so. Whenever I have a long game session going (4+ hours), I just look out the window for a few minutes every time I go to the bathroom or get a drink.

 

[Hadsus]

Originally posted by: Mem

Originally posted by: Hadsus

Originally posted by: error8

Originally posted by: Arkaign

Negatives to CRT's : big, heavy, power-hungry, not 'cool'.

and eye destroyers.

Funny....I use a 22" NEC Multisync CRT at work that's about ten years old and go home to a two year old 21 inch Samsung 215tw LCD (S-PVA). Both are good monitors and I have zero problems. My eyes haven't changed much at all over the years.

I do miss the quickness of the CRT when gaming. It's a bit of an adjustment at first as you easily notice the blurring. Unfortunately in the LCD world you are faced with the tradeoff of quick TN panels that have image issues and more expensive panels that look great with great view angles but aren't as quick as the TNs. No, things are not so rosy with LCDs. I'd stil be using my NEC CRT at home if it weren't for an incompatible connection it has with my 8800 GT card.

Works both ways, CRTs are bulky use more power and heat,even the best have poor geometry compared to LCD,also CRT lose focus sharpness/quality over time so you may not notice it at first,throw in the pixel sharpness via DVI/HDMI on LCD (even the best CRTs look blurred next to this) ,I would never go back to CRT.

Throw in the widescreen gaming experience via 16:10 or 16:9 LCDs too which very few CRTs have.

The geometry canard is used again and again. It is not an issue. Just like some LCDs slightly change color left to right or have brightness issues vertically. Eventually it is just ignored. Not to mention that geometry can be fixed on CRTs. And if image quality were to deteriorate significantly on a CRT I simply wouldn't use it. But the one I use at work is going strong after ten years. If it was a problem, I'd simply ask for a new monitor. But I like the Multisync and will use it till it dies. Like I said, I use both and demonizing CRTs for some insignificant issue just gets old.

BTW, try to find a good LCD that does gaming well, isn't hampered by response/frame lag, viewing angles, and limited/shifting colors. I have poured over the sticky for days trying to find a 24 inch LCD that does it all and it can't be found for less than $1,000. Believe me, I have tried. I've come close to getting the HP lp2475w but there are threads miles long complaining about red push and white crush that has eventually discouraged me from pulling the trigger. CRT is definitely still on option IMO.

 

[Mem]

From Bit-tech.

60Hz, 100Hz, Vsync... how do all these terms inter-relate?

On a CRT, the refresh rate is how many times, per second, the display is drawn - i.e. how many times the electron guns are told to fire by the video source. The refresh rate on a monitor is limited by how fast the guns can fire - more expensive guns can obviously fire faster. The refresh rate is also limited by the resolution, because the higher the number of vertical lines to refresh, the longer it takes the guns to refresh them all.

We all know from experience that a higher refresh rate makes for a better image that has less flicker, but do we know why? The phosphors in a CRT illuminate when hit with electrons, but begin to fade as soon as the energy from the electron is used up. To keep the phosphor illuminated requires a constant stream of electrons. If they're not coming in fast enough, the phospor will visbly fade then light up again - causing that horrendous 60Hz flicker we all know and love, which is especially visible on high resolution screens with lots of vertical lines to scan. 60Hz is more tolerable on a lower resolution screen where there are less lines to scan.

On a CRT monitor with a resolution of 1600x1200 or above, 100Hz is ideal to keep all the lines supplied with enough electrons to stop the phosphors fading and flicker occurring.



Refresh and Response on LCDs
All of this doesn't really apply to LCDs. The pixels and subpixels in LCD panels don't fade as phosphor does, since the light from the backlight is constant and the current from the electrodes is constant, meaning that light is passed from the pixels for as long as the display controller tells it to. However, LCDs are nominally set up to report a 60Hz refresh back to the video controller, which often requires at least some value to work to.

What does matter on a LCD, however, is the response time. This is not the same as a refresh rate. Refresh rate time is the measurement of how many frames can be displayed per second. For an LCD, response time refers to how quickly a liquid crystal can twist, then untwist to either pass or block the light of each pixel. The faster the crystals can react, the faster the motion that can be displayed on screen.

This is why a low response time is essential for applications like movies and games to be watchable without ghosting. Ghosting is the remnants of the old frame image 'below' the new frame image due to the fact that not all the crystals have updated with the new frame in time to display it.

 

[w0w0w0w0w]

HMMMM...

I have glanced over some 120Hz LCD articles and what they say is quite interesting with respect to motion quality. They seem to say that they improve the ghosting issue of LCDs as well as providing smoother motion. If only they weren't so expensive...

Damn I almost bought the LG L227WT...

Does anyone have any predictions as to if 120Hz monitors will become more affordable in the near future (<1Year)? (Lets say cut the 2233RZ from £400 down to £300)

 

[Mem]

The geometry canard is used again and again. It is not an issue. Just like some LCDs slightly change color left to right or have brightness issues vertically. Eventually it is just ignored. Not to mention that geometry can be fixed on CRTs. And if image quality were to deteriorate significantly on a CRT I simply wouldn't use it. But the one I use at work is going strong after ten years. If it was a problem, I'd simply ask for a new monitor. But I like the Multisync and will use it till it dies. Like I said, I use both and demonizing CRTs for some insignificant issue just gets old.

It is when you you have to rebox them like have done in the past over the years for RMA,believe me its no joke boxing those huge monitors back due to some crappy geometry or other issue,especially 3 floors up.

At least with LCD I only have to worry about dead pixels(can be covered by pixel check) and if I'm very unlucky maybe serious backlight bleed.

I'm glad CRTs are going way of the dodo.

 

[brblx]

i think some of you guys either havn't used a decent LCD or are full of it- with a true sub-10ms response time there just isn't any visible ghosting. saying you see ghosting on a 5ms display is akin to those guys who think they can hear the difference in audio cables made of silver. you're psyching yourself out.