THG now saying Rambus is where it's at

Novgrod

Golden Member
Mar 3, 2001
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"Rambus: Take 2"

Now I don't believe that they're right, and I'm hoping somebody who knows more than I know will back me up :)

"We ultimately believe that in hitching its processor roadmap to Rambus, Intel is ensuring its ability to push CPUs into higher speeds. Rambus has a clear cut roadmap that Intel can target, and that's been the case since the beginning."

I'm going to go out on a limb (I hate Rambus -ed) and say that this quote is a particular bunch of bunk.

Tell me I'm right please!
 

CKDragon

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2001
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I'll withold my opinions on THG as I've had limited experience with them other than the few articles I've read that have seemingly been talking down to me...

From what I understand with P4 systems is that an 2.4 Northwood and RAMBUS is actually able to run faster than a 2.8 Northwood with DDR. The only reason that the RAMBUS is not able to overclock as well is the motherboard. With a new chipset, RAMBUS may take a definitive lead.

As an AMD guy, I will just add how frustrating it's been to see the DDR price raise almost to RAMBUS levels... almost.

CK
 

oldfart

Lifer
Dec 2, 1999
10,207
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<< As an AMD guy, I will just add how frustrating it's been to see the DDR price raise almost to RAMBUS levels... almost. >>


Crucial 256 meg DDR with AT discount:
256MB 83.99 71.39 CT3264Z265 DDR PC2100 ? CL=2.5 ? Unbuffered ? Non-parity ? 2.5V ? 32Meg x 64

256 meg Samsung RDRAM $76.00

Yep, pretty close these days.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,605
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<< Rambus has a clear cut roadmap that Intel can target, and that's been the case since the beginning."

I'm going to go out on a limb (I hate Rambus -ed) and say that this quote is a particular bunch of bunk.
>>



What is wrong with this section of the quote? Rambus has been around since the early 90's. Rambus has always had clear roadmaps and has always provided those products when they said they would be available. Rambus uses a 5 year roadmap - giving companies lots of time to prepare. Rambus is already two generations ahead of Intel - they have shown both PC1066 and PC1200 up and running in computers (while Intel is stuck with a 800 MHz fsb). That is very nice for a company that takes years to develop a new chip. Do you know what DDR will be like in 5 years? Neither does any company tring to develop a new product which uses DDR.

I'm not going to attempt to guess if RDRAM will stay a niche market or if it will become an industry standard. So I could see how you might not accept the first half of your quote: ""We ultimately believe that in hitching its processor roadmap to Rambus, Intel is ensuring its ability to push CPUs into higher speeds." However, please tell me what is bunk about the second half.
 

Novgrod

Golden Member
Mar 3, 2001
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Oh nuffin is wrong with that particular quote; just felt like giving everybody more than one line.

Though, for what it's worth, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Rambus' roadmap was under 50% of the reason that Intel hitched to their trailer. The thought of controlling some of the memory market might be another chunk.

Also, why no mention of dual-channel DDR, e.g. the one that nvidia could provide for the p4?
 

Athlon4all

Diamond Member
Jun 18, 2001
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Here's my feelings on the Memory situation. I feel that both RDRAM and DDR can and will coexist in the market.

RDRAM I feel is the supirior memory for the P4. Right now, the difference bertween PC800 and PC2700 is negligable, and the difference between PC800 and PC2100 on the most popular platform (845-D) is at most 10%. With current prices, RDRAM is definately worth it performance wise. And I am also going to note that while this board doesn't have the goodies of boards like the 845 Ultra ARU, 8IRXP, etc, but Abit TH7II can hit 133fsb (some 140fsb) easily, and when using Samsung/Corsair RDRAM, you can easily have a 533fsb+PC1066 setup. This setup, is definately faster enough than 845-D @ 533fsb (Prolly at most 15% faster). Reallym DDR I feel, and THG not in so many words, but really gives the feeling that DDR is experiencing heavy signal degredation at PC2700 speeds, I personally, feel that the path stops here for DDR. I doubt that Pararell DDR will ever get above PC2700 speeds. And in that situation, DDR is pretty much at it's max, and even now, it barely keeps up with RDRAM, and as Ace's Hardware has shown, the improvments from going 400fsb+PC800 to 533fsb+PC1066 are very real, while, DDR will barely get any speed increase from 533fsb because it's not maxing out the fsb as it is.

So really, I do agree with THG that RDRAM is in for a comeback. And really, some people are saying that RDRAM prices are gonna come up soon as well, but I really think that isn't gonna happen. RDRAM is only gonna get faster, and as fsb increases even more, RDRAM will be faster and faster than DDR.

This hasn't even taken into account the whole thing about DDR gaining lkess from higher CPU clock speeds than RDRAM. I am not sure what to think about this. It does make sense to me that high clocked P4's will need faster RAM, only benchmarks will tell.

People have said, well what about Dual Channel DDR? People do not realize how expensive Dual Channel DDR is and how difficult it is to implement compared to 850's Dual Channel RDRAM platform. I will not deny that 850 is expensive, and that nVidia has done an amazing job in designing Dual Channel DDR in nForce, but I think that when it all irons out, a Dual Channel DDR chipset will be very much more expensive than an equivalent 850+PC1066 platform.

All this though does not mean that DDR is on it's way out. Hammer, unlike the P4 is:

1. Not as memory bandwidth hungry
2. Will not achive as high clock speeds as the P4

And this is why, I feel, that PC2700 will be plenty for a long time for Hammer.

I think the bottom line, is that DDR is a dead end. DDR is not going to get a whole lot faster, and really, it's latency is only going to get higher and higher. Meanwhile, RDRAM has a lot of head room, latency is getting lower as frequency gets higher (proven by Ace's Hardware as well), there's 4i Architechure (4 Banks vs 32 banks on current devices) which will cut costs, plus there is 32-bit and 64-bit RIMM's as well. So, DDR will stay for a while, especially in the AMD platform, but my prediction is if Intel goes back to Rambus, then we will see RDRAM back by this time next year. Really, I still think it sucks that Intel canceled Tulloch. It would've provided the same bandwidth of 850 but without the dual channels.
 

Diable

Senior member
Sep 28, 2001
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RDRAM has always been the best type of memory for P4's and probably will be for a long time. DDRAM IMO offers nothing that I can't get from a i850 based motherboard. Its not faster then RDRAM nor is it exorbitantly cheaper either, for once I can say THG is 100% correct.
 

majewski9

Platinum Member
Jun 26, 2001
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Give me a break! Intel is going to dump RDRAM. I mean they have just released a couple DDR chipsets as of late.

SIS 645 + DDR333 = Rambus killer! There are P4 DDR chipsets from ali, sis, via, ati, and intel coming out. I didnt think that Intel was going to make any more RDRAM chipsets for the p4. They did release the 860 for the xeon though. They might release one using 533 fsb. Most chipset companies have stayed away from Rambus saying that it was too costly to produce Rdram chipsets. SIS however might make an RDRAM chipset. If there are any new Rambus chipsets in the works I hope an AMD RDRAM chipset is produced. I dont think that there would be a performance gain , but it would be neat to see RDRAM and the Athlon pair up.
 

Daovonnaex

Golden Member
Dec 16, 2001
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RDRAM is the future, as it scales much higher and is more reliable. Furthermore, latency in RDRAM actually drops the higher the clock frequency is. With the kind of performance we're getting from mere 16-bit dual channel RDRAM, and given that 64-bit RDRAM already exists, it's pretty clear that RDRAM is the future of memory for now. When the new fsb arrives, PC1066 dual-channel RDRAM will provide DDR SDRAM destroying performance, especially given that PC3200 DDR SDRAM has proven very difficult to get in sufficient yields without turning to exotic memory. I don't possibly see how PC4266 DDR SDRAM can be manufactured any time in the near future, which would still be inferior to dual-channel PC1066 RDRAM due to the higher latency and more frequent memory errors it would incur. While many people tout that dual-channel DDR SDRAM would blow RDRAM away, that wouldn't work because the P4's FSB cannot handle that volume of memory bandwidth as it is. Even if it would work, 32-bit and 64-bit RDRAM already exist, whereas I see no 128-bit DDR SDRAM on the horizon.
 

BD231

Lifer
Feb 26, 2001
10,568
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Rambus is clearly a better performer, one only has to take clock speed in account to notice the difference. While clock speed isent everything, it's still something. DDR dosent seem like it will be able to offer what RDRam can, however I dont know much about the newer forms of DDR coming out, but for now RDRam is an all around better performer, regardless of the latency issues people complain about.
 

Daovonnaex

Golden Member
Dec 16, 2001
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<< Rambus is clearly a better performer, one only has to take clock speed in account to notice the difference. While clock speed isent everything, it's still something. DDR dosent seem like it will be able to offer what RDRam can, however I dont know much about the newer forms of DDR coming out, but for now RDRam is an all around better performer, regardless of the latency issues people complain about. >>

QDR SDRAM will be quad-pumped, but will still have the same issues. RDRAM is currently double pumped (I believe), and it would be easy to make it quad-pumped (RAMBUS is working on it, I believe).
 

Novgrod

Golden Member
Mar 3, 2001
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Rambus has been working on a lot of stuff for a long time, but they've had the same memory out for a couple years now.

Don't forget that they had a rude awakening when they learned they couldn't steal profits from SD and DDRAM. Maybe they dumped some of their lawyers and they're paying some engineers :)
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,605
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Rambus seems to think that they will nearly double their market share from now until 2005. That seems like they aren't going to be going away anytime soon. However, Rambus also thinks that DDR will still dominate in 2005.

Link
 

Snoop

Golden Member
Oct 11, 1999
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IMO, this argument will become moot as soon as more Dual Channel DDR chipsets become available; Dual channel pc2700 lovin :D
 

Diable

Senior member
Sep 28, 2001
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<< Give me a break! Intel is going to dump RDRAM. I mean they have just released a couple DDR chipsets as of late.

SIS 645 + DDR333 = Rambus killer! There are P4 DDR chipsets from ali, sis, via, ati, and intel coming out. I didnt think that Intel was going to make any more RDRAM chipsets for the p4. They did release the 860 for the xeon though. They might release one using 533 fsb.
>>



First thing, SiS' 645 chips set is far from a Rambus killer. The hand made boards they gave to Anand and a few other sites was a Rambus killer but non of the shipping SiS645 motherboards performs as good as those "special" boards SiS loaned out. If Intel only makes Xeon chipset's that uses RDRAM I'm cool with that I have two 1.8GHz Xeon's in the box next to me.