They'll Never Stop Until that Day Comes

[Dari]

These southern conservatives are determine to overturn the nation's federal and state abortion laws. Bush's UN team working with fanatical ayatollahs to curb the right of women around the globe was disturbing enough. But with two justices about to retire and their attrition of current laws supporting abortion shows no abatement.

Most western countries support abortion and that's how it should be. I find it paradoxical and hypocritical that southern conservatives can find it morally abhorrant for a woman to abort a child but have no problems when countless people, mostly minorities, are legally executed every year. Sounds like two conflicting ideologies of christianity and American justice. I, for one, never believed in a Christian cowboy because they represented vastly different beliefs. The former teaches morality and forgiveness while the latter worships vigilantism and vengeance. In fact, cowboy myths sings the praises of redemption through violence. Christian forgiveness is never an option.

So, is there an unholy alliance in southern conservatives; between the cowboy and the christian? I think so. Both are part of the american tradition and both are part of a certain flank in this administration. The alliance has survived for over 200 years, but it isn't sustainable. Something has to give. I sincerely hope that these conservatives study their actions and notice the hypocrasy.

 

[rudder]

I find it paradoxical and hypocritical that southern conservatives can find it morally abhorrant for a woman to abort a child but have no problems when countless people, mostly minorities, are legally executed every year.

Maybe they view unborn children as innocent and in need of protection, whereas that person on death row is there for a reason.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: rudder
I find it paradoxical and hypocritical that southern conservatives can find it morally abhorrant for a woman to abort a child but have no problems when countless people, mostly minorities, are legally executed every year.

Maybe they view unborn children as innocent and in need of protection, whereas that person on death row is there for a reason.

how does that reflect upon their christian beliefs? The irony here is that the Cross is talking when it comes to the child and the cowboy is speaking for the deathrow inmate, who may be innocent. Seems like Christ never holds dialogue with the Cowboy. They are distrustful of each other. That is the paradox that lives within each southern conservative.

 

[Warin]

Yeek. Bringing up the abortion issue... sure to degenerate to flaming

I am of two minds on the issue though. I believe it is truly a womans right to decide when it comes to abortion. However, I feel it is reprehensible to use abortion as a form of birth control. If you are responsible enough to have sex, you should be responsible enough to consider consequences and use a form of birth control. Of course, that would mean good sex education in schools, and those same conservatives that decry abortion would also go through the roof if good sex ed was taught in public schools.

 

[sMiLeYz]

Finally I agree with Dari on something.

It's accepted fact that there are women in our society who doesnt want a child no matter what, and there should be a place where women can get abortions.

But these Christian hypocrites would rather have these women who may have been raped either to do it illegally and risk their lives, rather than do it safely under the watch of a professional physician.

They think that making it illegal to have abortion clinics are to stop people from having abortions, please. These women that have them, dont want to... believe me I've spoken with someone that's been through this. No woman wants to to go through an abortion, they understand the implications of it. They're doing it because they've been raped, or their father doesnt want the child or to take responsibilty, and they have no means to support the child. Never the less, Christians want to bring these children in to this world which the mom cant raise poperly... when they become criminals than they want them executed.

 

[tcsenter]

I find it paradoxical and hypocritical that southern conservatives can find it morally abhorrant for a woman to abort a child but have no problems when countless people, mostly minorities, are legally executed every year.

Hmm, killing innocent babies because it might put a damper on one's free-wheeling social life or professional career is good, but executing murderers and the like is bad?

Sorry, I'm just not seeing the contradiction or the moral equivalency.

 

[rickn]

Of course, that would mean good sex education in schools, and those same conservatives that decry abortion would also go through the roof if good sex ed was taught in public schools.

how about free cable access for everyone, and force them to watch the sunday night sex show. Women will know what to do, and guys will be so turned off by that old skank host they won't want to have sex. Best mass sex education class the world over

 

[sMiLeYz]

Originally posted by: tcsenter

I find it paradoxical and hypocritical that southern conservatives can find it morally abhorrant for a woman to abort a child but have no problems when countless people, mostly minorities, are legally executed every year.

Hmm, killing innocent babies because it might put a damper on one's free-wheeling social life or professional career is good, but executing murderers and the like is bad?

Sorry, I'm just not seeing the contradiction or the moral equivalency.

I hate killing anybody, especially babies... but than again it's an fetus... and I'd rather the mother decide than the government decide or some Religious Whacko.

 

[sMiLeYz]

Originally posted by: rickn

Of course, that would mean good sex education in schools, and those same conservatives that decry abortion would also go through the roof if good sex ed was taught in public schools.

how about free cable access for everyone, and force them to watch the sunday night sex show. Women will know what to do, and guys will be so turned off by that old skank host they won't want to have sex. Best mass sex education class the world over

God forbid, we have sex education in schools because that would actually prevent abortions.

 

[Tab]

Their is a difference between sex education and good sex education.

 

[Moonbeam]

Lets take a look at the confidence intelligence and vigor of Dari's claim:

Originally posted by: Dari
These southern conservatives are determine to overturn the nation's federal and state abortion laws. Bush's UN team working with fanatical ayatollahs NOT THE APPEAL TO EMOTION. EVERYBODY HATES FANATICAL AYATOLLAHS RIGHT AND THAT'S WAHT ALL MODERATE CHRISTIANS ARE, RIGHT? to curb the right of women around the globe was disturbing enough. But with two justices about to retire and their attrition of current laws supporting abortion shows no abatement.

Most western countries support abortion and that's how it should be. SEE THE DEEP APPEAL TO TRUTH AND PRINCIPLE? THAT'S HOW IT SHOULD BE. BUT WHY? I find it paradoxical and hypocritical that southern conservatives can find it morally abhorrant for a woman to abort a child but have no problems when countless people, mostly minorities, are legally executed every year. I FIND? i FIND? THAT'S A POWERFUL LOGIC INDEED. WOW, I FIND. OH NOW I'M CONVINCED. Sounds like two conflicting ideologies of christianity and American justice. SOUNDS LIKE? TO WHOM, TCSENTER? i DON'T THINK SO. I, for one, never believed in a Christian cowboy because they represented vastly different beliefs. YOU SHOULD GET TO KNOW PEOPLE. THEY ARE QUITE CONTENT TO HOLD MILLIONS OF OPPOSING ABSURDITIES WITHOUT A SINGLE THOUGHT ABOUT IT. The former teaches morality and forgiveness while the latter worships vigilantism and vengeance. NOTICE HERE THE FINE SCULPTING OF THE ARGUMENT OFF INTO A SINGLE DIALECTIC AS IF THESE WERE THE ONLY OR EVEN THE PRIMARY REALITIES. In fact, cowboy myths sings the praises of redemption through violence. Christian forgiveness is never an option.

So, is there an unholy AH, BUT YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN THE HOLY, DO YOU. alliance in southern conservatives; between the cowboy and the christian? I think so. WEEEEEEEEEEEE, YOU THINK SO, THAT'S PERSUASIVE. Both are part of the american tradition and both are part of a certain flank in this administration. The alliance has survived for over 200 years, but it isn't sustainable. THERE WEREN'T ANY COWBOYS TWO HUNDRED YEARS AGO. Something has to give. WHY, AS I SAID PEOPLE HAVE NO PROBLEM LIVING WITH CONTRADICTION WHAT SO EVER. I sincerely hope that these conservatives study their actions and notice the hypocrasy. WHAT YOU SINCERELY HOPE IS THAT YOU CAN LOOSE THEIR MORAL AUTHORITY ON THE INSAQNE NOTION THAT YOU ARE A QUALIFIED ARBITER OF TRUTH. YOUR GOAL IS TO DESTROY MORAL ABSOLUTES TO MAKE WAY FOR THE BEAST'S AGE OF SECULAR HUMANISM. YOU WISH US ALL TO PARTAKE OF YOUR OWN PERSONAL HELL. YOU ARE THE UBER MENCH. I KNOW YOU WELL.

You see Dari in your whole argument you could not base a single point on anything but air, because you are a hollow man. You float in a world of relatives where truth is whatever takes your fancy. What you will create is the Monster from the Id.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Originally posted by: tcsenter

I find it paradoxical and hypocritical that southern conservatives can find it morally abhorrant for a woman to abort a child but have no problems when countless people, mostly minorities, are legally executed every year.

Hmm, killing innocent babies because it might put a damper on one's free-wheeling social life or professional career is good, but executing murderers and the like is bad?

Sorry, I'm just not seeing the contradiction or the moral equivalency.

First, fetuses ain't babies. Second, Christians are supposed to believe that sinners can potentially be saved.

Let's save the person that's not really a person vs. let's kill the person who has sinned regardless of any potential for redemption.

There's your contradiction.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I don't see the problem. The southern conservatives are in a leadership position which obligates them to follow the dictates of their constituency. They have a clear vision of what is in the best interest of Americans. That being the case, they have the right to use their position and power for the greater good as they perceive it. Laws that oppose their point of view need to be changed to reflect the fact that they act in the best interest of America. The opposition is weak, and logic dictates that they take advantage of it. Romantic notions of conspiracies are irrelevant. By demonstrating their strength, they will either force others to accept their beliefs as truth, creating harmony in this country, or the other side becomes irrelevant. No matter though, this is the basis on which America was founded and Americans can either accept it or they can leave.



Kind of sounds familiar somehow.

 

[Moonbeam]

Kind of sounds familiar somehow.
------------------------------
And I thought I was mean. :evil::beer:

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

:beer::beer:

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: Hayabusarider
I don't see the problem. The southern conservatives are in a leadership position which obligates them to follow the dictates of their constituency. They have a clear vision of what is in the best interest of Americans. That being the case, they have the right to use their position and power for the greater good as they perceive it. Laws that oppose their point of view need to be changed to reflect the fact that they act in the best interest of America. The opposition is weak, and logic dictates that they take advantage of it. Romantic notions of conspiracies are irreverent. By demonstrating their strength, they will either force others to accept their beliefs as truth, creating harmony in this country, or the other side becomes irrelevant. No matter though, this is the basis on which America was founded and Americans can either accept it or they can leave.



Kind of sounds familiar somehow.

there is an underlying schism that should be effectively dealt with before they (southerners) can convincely present their beliefs to the wider world. As I mention earlier, they can't team up with fanatical ayatollahs at a UN sponsored women's conference, and down the same hall, lambast the Iranians as part of an axis of evil.

And southern conservatives do not make up the entirety of the Bush Administration. There are also conservatives from the Eastern seaboard, who support women's right. Furthermore, these conservatives are what you would call neocons. As with any administration, there is a give and take when it comes to various policies. The neocons don't care too much about the abortion issue. In fact, they are willing to go along for the ride so long as their policies are carried out. Those deal mainly with business and democracy.

If anything, the southern part of the conservative establishment still has some hard choices to make before they can take a true leadership position in many institutions. Let's not forget that it was another conservative from the eastern seaboard, George H. W. Bush, that lost his re-election bid after he had a falling out with the southern folks.

By the way, you really need to stop turning my opinions into simplistic drivel.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian

Originally posted by: tcsenter

I find it paradoxical and hypocritical that southern conservatives can find it morally abhorrant for a woman to abort a child but have no problems when countless people, mostly minorities, are legally executed every year.

Hmm, killing innocent babies because it might put a damper on one's free-wheeling social life or professional career is good, but executing murderers and the like is bad?

Sorry, I'm just not seeing the contradiction or the moral equivalency.

First, fetuses ain't babies. Second, Christians are supposed to believe that sinners can potentially be saved.

Let's save the person that's not really a person vs. let's kill the person who has sinned regardless of any potential for redemption.

There's your contradiction.

Fetuses are babies. But, strangly and disgustingly, that's argueable. What is NOT arguable is that a fetus WILL become a baby unless outside influences hinder that development. Ending that devleopmental process is equivalent to ending the baby's life.

Christians believe anybody can be saved, but they don't believe there shouldn't be punishment for your sins. The death penalty isn't a "Christian" thing. Nobody is saying these criminals can't get saved.

But I like how you incorrectly portray the opposition. Sure makes arguing easier when you pretty much make up facts as you go.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: Hayabusarider
I don't see the problem. The southern conservatives are in a leadership position which obligates them to follow the dictates of their constituency. They have a clear vision of what is in the best interest of Americans. That being the case, they have the right to use their position and power for the greater good as they perceive it. Laws that oppose their point of view need to be changed to reflect the fact that they act in the best interest of America. The opposition is weak, and logic dictates that they take advantage of it. Romantic notions of conspiracies are irrelevant. By demonstrating their strength, they will either force others to accept their beliefs as truth, creating harmony in this country, or the other side becomes irrelevant. No matter though, this is the basis on which America was founded and Americans can either accept it or they can leave.



Kind of sounds familiar somehow.

I was just thinking how the inhumanization of unborn babies is similar to the Nazi dehumanization of the Jews, but hey...

 

[Dari]

this is a conflict within an inter-party conflict, not something liberals can debate on

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Fetuses are babies. But, strangly and disgustingly, that's argueable. What is NOT arguable is that a fetus WILL become a baby unless outside influences hinder that development. Ending that devleopmental process is equivalent to ending the baby's life.

No, ending the process prevents the baby from existing. Hell, another real Christian thing is that life begins with the first breath. That's why you don't see funerals for fetuses.

Christians believe anybody can be saved, but they don't believe there shouldn't be punishment for your sins. The death penalty isn't a "Christian" thing. Nobody is saying these criminals can't get saved.

Believing anybody can be saved is debatable. But believing everyone deserves the chance isn't. And ending their natural life prematurely is depriving them of the chance.

But I like how you incorrectly portray the opposition. Sure makes arguing easier when you pretty much make up facts as you go.

I haven't made up a damn thing, nor have I incorrectly portrayed anyone. Or is it PC now to label pointing out the hypocrisy of hypocrits as an 'incorrect' portrayal'?

 

[Moonbeam]

Sure makes arguing easier when you pretty much make up facts as you go.
----------------------------
But, but, but that's certainly what you did.
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this is a conflict within an inter-party conflict, not something liberals can debate on
-------------------------------
Right. It such a pain having the fundies wag the dog. If they's only drop that religious bull sh!t we could really take off. Morals just get in the way.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Dari
this is a conflict within an inter-party conflict, not something liberals can debate on

The other day you said that politicians don't tell the voter stuff they don't want to hear... so what's the problem... tell the voter what gets ya elected then do what ya can to advance the real Agenda... when a district issue comes up ... pair your vote with some one who has to deal with a similar problem but in reverse... The Agenda of the Big Players is what is gonna be moved not the wishes of the voter... say what ever ya have to to get the seat..

 

[Brie]

Originally posted by: Dari
These southern conservatives are determine to overturn the nation's federal and state abortion laws. Bush's UN team working with fanatical ayatollahs to curb the right of women around the globe was disturbing enough. But with two justices about to retire and their attrition of current laws supporting abortion shows no abatement.

Most western countries support abortion and that's how it should be. I find it paradoxical and hypocritical that southern conservatives can find it morally abhorrant for a woman to abort a child but have no problems when countless people, mostly minorities, are legally executed every year. Sounds like two conflicting ideologies of christianity and American justice. I, for one, never believed in a Christian cowboy because they represented vastly different beliefs. The former teaches morality and forgiveness while the latter worships vigilantism and vengeance. In fact, cowboy myths sings the praises of redemption through violence. Christian forgiveness is never an option.

So, is there an unholy alliance in southern conservatives; between the cowboy and the christian? I think so. Both are part of the american tradition and both are part of a certain flank in this administration. The alliance has survived for over 200 years, but it isn't sustainable. Something has to give. I sincerely hope that these conservatives study their actions and notice the hypocrasy.

I am a "southern conservative" living in very "conservative" district. I must say that if ANY politician took the stance of overturning abotion laws here in my district, he would have no chance at election. While there may be a predominance of "southern conservatives" that want to overturn abortion laws, I must ask you to not sterotype us in general

These southern conservatives

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Sure makes arguing easier when you pretty much make up facts as you go.
----------------------------
But, but, but that's certainly what you did.
--------
--------
this is a conflict within an inter-party conflict, not something liberals can debate on
-------------------------------
Right. It such a pain having the fundies wag the dog. If they's only drop that religious bull sh!t we could really take off. Morals just get in the way.

Ah, the old 'I know you are but what am I' comeback. You must win all the arguments in your third grade class.

 

[Maetryx]

Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Fetuses are babies. But, strangly and disgustingly, that's argueable. What is NOT arguable is that a fetus WILL become a baby unless outside influences hinder that development. Ending that devleopmental process is equivalent to ending the baby's life.

No, ending the process prevents the baby from existing. Hell, another real Christian thing is that life begins with the first breath. That's why you don't see funerals for fetuses.

I've never heard this belief before. I've taken 6 or 7 college level theology classes from a professor that graduated with a Masters of Divinity at Yale. I've been attending Protestant churches for 25 years or so. I don't view the stated position as a "Christian thing". It is difficult to decide when something is alive or not, but I don't think anyone cares whether or not there is proof one way or the other. I doubt anyone would flip flop on the abortion issue based on a 100% agreed upon definition of when life begins.

Christians believe anybody can be saved, but they don't believe there shouldn't be punishment for your sins. The death penalty isn't a "Christian" thing. Nobody is saying these criminals can't get saved.

Believing anybody can be saved is debatable. But believing everyone deserves the chance isn't. And ending their natural life prematurely is depriving them of the chance. [/quote]

Calvinist Christians actually don't believe that anyone can be saved. But generally it is agreed that there should be punishment for sin. As a Christian, I don't believe someone who is destined to be saved can accidentally miss his chance by being "prematurely" executed or aborted or whatever. God wouldn't be omnipotent if buses could go round running over people just before they get saved.