These Are The Military Projects Losing Funding To Trump's Border Wall

[Challenger]

Nice deflection.

Have you ever worked with union people? I have and they protect the lazy and the stupid more than they do for the good employees. My company (which is doubling in size from 200 to more than 400 in the next year) hires contractors and they are moving away from the unions yet still pay scale pay and better benefits. I am a maintenance tech so I work closely with contractors and most of them are glad they don't pay dues anymore because it is thier money and they can use it as they see fit. They also have the ability to get rid of dead weight without having to go through the union red tape saving them money, time and stress.


Unions were once needed and valuable entities but have become a heavy burden and if you voluntarily belong to one and put your trust in the hands of mob bosees I don't think the American public should bail you out.

If congress can find the money to bail out the criminals that stole from workers pensions without investigating where the money went, why can't they find money for the military and a wall for protectio of our border against invasion by illegal?

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Nice deflection.

Have you ever worked with union people? I have and they protect the lazy and the stupid more than they do for the good employees. My company (which is doubling in size from 200 to more than 400 in the next year) hires contractors and they are moving away from the unions yet still pay scale pay and better benefits. I am a maintenance tech so I work closely with contractors and most of them are glad they don't pay dues anymore because it is thier money and they can use it as they see fit. They also have the ability to get rid of dead weight without having to go through the union red tape saving them money, time and stress.


Unions were once needed and valuable entities but have become a heavy burden and if you voluntarily belong to one and put your trust in the hands of mob bosees I don't think the American public should bail you out.

If congress can find the money to bail out the criminals that stole from workers pensions without investigating where the money went, why can't they find money for the military and a wall for protectio of our border against invasion by illegal?

You have an emotional investment in this matter, please understand that's going to taint your view.

Unions had an undeniable impact on bolstering the middle class in the last century, and the middle class is lesser for abandoning them, regardless of their warts. I have no doubt that the contractors you work with are dreaming of roses and candy right now, but give it a few years, once the honeymoon wears off the company will start turning the screws on them for profits. It's been the MO of companies for the last half century.

 

[zinfamous]

Yep, about 10 lbs of Reagan still obstructing those bowels, I see.

It's like you're just regurgitating the same, tired propaganda that conflates a legit minority problem to represent the whole, in the same, repeated, targeted effort to absolutely crush your generational gain in actual wages.

The fact that you think you are being paid a decent wage is what is absolutely hysterical. It's fucking hysterical, and I have no sympathy for you. You are in fact being paid roughly 20% less than the rate you would have seen in the 70s. That shit is criminal, and you vote for it because you swallow this nonsense that the savings by the company! and my piddly union dues = I see more peanuts each month and all of those savings by my bosses goes back to me (it never does and never will, dummy).

Anyway, continue drinking the kool-aid, chump. I have no doubt you will only ever vote against your actual interests.

 

[zinfamous]

If congress can find the money to bail out the criminals that stole from workers pensions without investigating where the money went, why can't they find money for the military and a wall for protectio of our border against invasion by illegal?

What the hell? You mean you don't know who these people are? They are the fucking contractors that you lionize, the CEOs, the titans of industry that were gifted your tax dollars for the grand holy "Trickle Down." For generations, when progressive, liberal economics saw the absolute greatest power of the middle class and blue collar wages and pensions, those funds were being seeded by those very same bosses as a way to avoid paying exorbitant corporate taxes. You see, that was actual, real trickle Down, but you fucking believed the abject lies of St Reagan that his new version would instead allow those holy people that you lionize to keep all that vast wealth that you created for them--without penalty! ...and that out of the purity of their hearts, they would just "give back to you."

They were already doing that for more than a generation, dummy. That's exactly what was happening. Instead, you voted for them to steal your goddamn pension fund. They went insolvent. It wasn't the unions, it was fucking you voting for the GOP to absolutely legalize this kind of theft. it was you. So, don't bother trying to find them: the GOP is fucking responsible and you empowered them to do it, and it is obvious that you still worship the thieving ground that they stand on.

This is actual history, this is actual policy, and the facts are out. This isn't really debatable anymore. We've got better than 100 years of total data, the last 40 marking the clear point in time where the GOP decided to outright fuck you and the rest of us in the ass and you welcomed it with open, lustful arms.

 

[Challenger]

You did not answer my question. Have you worked with any measurable amount of union companies.

Can you ever reply to a post that you disagree with without using vulgarity and childish insults? I doubt it but you could try.

Last year I made over $120K (not counting my wifes income) in an area where you can buy a very nice 2500 sq ft house for around $175K and gas is around $2.30 per gal, so I am pretty happy with my financial situation.

 

[Challenger]

What the hell? You mean you don't know who these people are? They are the fucking contractors that you lionize, the CEOs, the titans of industry that were gifted your tax dollars for the grand holy "Trickle Down." For generations, when progressive, liberal economics saw the absolute greatest power of the middle class and blue collar wages and pensions, those funds were being seeded by those very same bosses as a way to avoid paying exorbitant corporate taxes. You see, that was actual, real trickle Down, but you fucking believed the abject lies of St Reagan that his new version would instead allow those holy people that you lionize to keep all that vast wealth that you created for them--without penalty! ...and that out of the purity of their hearts, they would just "give back to you."

They were already doing that for more than a generation, dummy. That's exactly what was happening. Instead, you voted for them to steal your goddamn pension fund. They went insolvent. It wasn't the unions, it was fucking you voting for the GOP to absolutely legalize this kind of theft. it was you. So, don't bother trying to find them: the GOP is fucking responsible and you empowered them to do it, and it is obvious that you still worship the thieving ground that they stand on.

This is actual history, this is actual policy, and the facts are out. This isn't really debatable anymore. We've got better than 100 years of total data, the last 40 marking the clear point in time where the GOP decided to outright fuck you and the rest of us in the ass and you welcomed it with open, lustful arms.

Indoctrinated liberal talking points while still not answering my question. Real life experience means more to me than government sponsored left tainted studies. Have fun.

 

[Jhhnn]

You did not answer my question. Have you worked with any measurable amount of union companies.

Can you ever reply to a post that you disagree with without using vulgarity and childish insults? I doubt it but you could try.

Last year I made over $120K (not counting my wifes income) in an area where you can buy a very nice 2500 sq ft house for around $175K and gas is around $1.30 per gal, so I am pretty happy with my financial situation.

That's obviously inefficient from a Capitalist's POV. They're already putting the stink eye on your dept, looking to farm it out.

 

[zinfamous]

You did not answer my question. Have you worked with any measurable amount of union companies.

Can you ever reply to a post that you disagree with without using vulgarity and childish insults? I doubt it but you could try.

Last year I made over $120K (not counting my wifes income) in an area where you can buy a very nice 2500 sq ft house for around $175K and gas is around $1.30 per gal, so I am pretty happy with my financial situation.

I've been a part of a large, national union (as various state employees) that I neither bothered with nor cared all that much about paying dues. The bureaucracy and nonsense notwithstanding, I know for a fact that my healthcare and pension options were preserved by that institution over the previous 15 years only because of the Union. That's simply unarguable.

But you're again ignoring the actual reality because it seems that in your world, a single person's association with a thing is all that matters to define the overarching effects of that entirety of the thing on a national scale. It's piss-poor, 3rd grade playground arguing. This is what I don't tolerate. Bitch and moan all you want about childish insults, but that simply what anyone deserves when they bring childish behavior to the table.

I'm glad that you are very happy to live on roughly 40-70% less of your actual current value, at normal scale with the previous generational history of progressive economic policies that actually created this "greatest country ever" that you "oh so love," but again, that's your fault for voting for the theft of your wages. Hey, you're happy with it because it allows you to live "like a lord" in an area where two stoplights rule the land (no criticism of that--but lol if you think that represents the population of the US).

And that is the exact complacence of your tolerance for your lifestyle, yet your seeming determination to complain about that very thing. I don't get it. You blame the unions for all your problems, whatever they are, yet are so happy now because you live on contractual work with exactly zero power to protect your own rights as a laborer. Your healthcare coverage and options are probably not all that great in comparison, but you're happy that your current productivity is only worth about 30% of what it used to be. ...again, only by your vote. So by happy. Stop bitching about Unions, because that was the only reason your $120k salary would have been $170-200k. Whatever, man. You like your contractors to keep their extra yachts and fire you whenever they please. I can't change that about you, obviously.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Indoctrinated liberal talking points while still not answering my question. Real life experience means more to me than government sponsored left tainted studies. Have fun.

So what you feel means more than data. Your anecdotes do not represent what the rest of America has experienced, most are not nearly as well off as you are.

For some fun math, I'm going to assume you're a male in the highest income period of your life (55 to 64). You're making roughly double the national average.

Based on real labor vs productivity extrapolation, if hadn't abandoned unions and everyone was making a living based on existing productivity, you'd be making in the range of $180k, and that's not counting what your union might negotiate for you. What could you do with another $60k/yr? Aside from pay your union dues, that is.

 

[Challenger]

That's obviously inefficient from a Capitalist's POV. They're already putting the stink eye on your dept, looking to farm it out.

The contractors are building our addition not doing any part of my job, so no.

 

[zinfamous]

Indoctrinated liberal talking points while still not answering my question. Real life experience means more to me than government sponsored left tainted studies. Have fun.

what the fuck does that mean?

you're the guy with a heaping lb-full of GOP horseshit obstructing your rectum, and you have the temerity to talk about indoctrination? lol, dumbass. You are pleased with the ever-shrinking value of your actual labor. And you voted for it. Why are you criticizing the thing that you love? The progressive economy actually valued you tremendously. You only ever voted to make yourself less valuable.

This is exactly what you did, and no amount of "nuh uhing" and "Science is bad!" is going to alter the abject truth of what you did to yourself. But hey, you're happy about it! I don't know why you're bitching about the people that obviously aren't really doing anything to you, because you are happy with your current lack of real value. You're happy, right? What the fuck are you bitching about?

Ah....still need "an enemy" to keep yourself energized at the polls for some reason, right? Common tactic. Hold up a mirror bud, look no further.

 

[SMOGZINN]

You did not answer my question. Have you worked with any measurable amount of union companies.

Can you ever reply to a post that you disagree with without using vulgarity and childish insults? I doubt it but you could try.

Last year I made over $120K (not counting my wifes income) in an area where you can buy a very nice 2500 sq ft house for around $175K and gas is around $2.30 per gal, so I am pretty happy with my financial situation.

Then let me answer your question. I work with a union every day. They don't protect the lazy and stupid more than anyone else, they protect everyone evenly. Their job is to be a counter to the power that management has over the workers. Individually workers have basically no power in the job market, only by banding together can they get any real power to equal the playing field.

 

[zinfamous]

So what you feel means more than data. Your anecdotes do not represent what the rest of America has experienced, most are not nearly as well off as you are.

For some fun math, I'm going to assume you're a male in the highest income period of your life (55 to 64). You're making roughly double the national average.

Based on real labor vs productivity extrapolation, if hadn't abandoned unions and everyone was making a living based on existing productivity, you'd be making in the range of $180k, and that's not counting what your union might negotiate for you. What could you do with another $60k/yr? Aside from pay your union dues, that is.

It doesn't matter if he should be making $60k more per year! The Union taking $1k of that annually, to protect that honest salary for him and an actual pension that worked, is the real crime! It's communism!

lol, GOPers and their low-level thinking are so fucking easy to spot.

 

[Jhhnn]

The contractors are building our addition not doing any part of my job, so no.

You're next. If you think other people won't do what you do for less you might be interested in some Arizona oceanfront property.

 

[Challenger]

I've been a part of a large, national union (as various state employees) that I neither bothered with nor cared all that much about paying dues. The bureaucracy and nonsense notwithstanding, I know for a fact that my healthcare and pension options were preserved by that institution over the previous 15 years only because of the Union. That's simply unarguable.

But you're again ignoring the actual reality because it seems that in your world, a single person's association with a thing is all that matters to define the overarching effects of that entirety of the thing on a national scale. It's piss-poor, 3rd grade playground arguing. This is what I don't tolerate. Bitch and moan all you want about childish insults, but that simply what anyone deserves when they bring childish behavior to the table.

I'm glad that you are very happy to live on roughly 40-70% less of your actual current value, at normal scale with the previous generational history of progressive economic policies that actually created this "greatest country ever" that you "oh so love," but again, that's your fault for voting for the theft of your wages. Hey, you're happy with it because it allows you to live "like a lord" in an area where two stoplights rule the land (no criticism of that--but lol if you think that represents the population of the US).

And that is the exact complacence of your tolerance for your lifestyle, yet your seeming determination to complain about that very thing. I don't get it. You blame the unions for all your problems, whatever they are, yet are so happy now because you live on contractual work with exactly zero power to protect your own rights as a laborer. Your healthcare coverage and options are probably not all that great in comparison, but you're happy that your current productivity is only worth about 30% of what it used to be. ...again, only by your vote. So by happy. Stop bitching about Unions, because that was the only reason your $120k salary would have been $170-200k. Whatever, man. You like your contractors to keep their extra yachts and fire you whenever they please. I can't change that about you, obviously.

Where did I ever blame unions for my problems? If you want to belong to a union, go for it. I am not bitching about unions all I was saying is if you put your trust in the union mob bosses and they steal your pensions the American public shouldn't be stuck with the bill.

BTW wages around the area are going up because everybody is hiring and finding good help is very hard to find.

I also am making a wage pretty much what the union employees are making.

 

[SMOGZINN]

BTW wages around the area are going up because everybody is hiring and finding good help is very hard to find.

I also am making a wage pretty much what the union employees are making.

The FYGM argument. Here is something to think about, the companies job is to lower your salary as much as they can while still getting the job done. If you think they are above using the relative power imbalance between you and them to squeeze you out then you are naive. I know of a company in Houston that in the 90's coordinated with several other companies in the same industry to lay off every single employee working that job and offered to hire them back at roughly half their old pay. They were able to get away with it because there was no union to stop them. It probably was not even legal, but I challenge you to prove that the actually coordinated instead of just reacting to an opportunity.

 

[zinfamous]

Where did I ever blame unions for my problems? If you want to belong to a union, go for it. I am not bitching about unions all I was saying is if you put your trust in the union mob bosses and they steal your pensions the American public shouldn't be stuck with the bill.

BTW wages around the area are going up because everybody is hiring and finding good help is very hard to find.

I also am making a wage pretty much what the union employees are making.

"Union mob bosses" "stole your pensions"

2 out of 2 of those things are abjectly false. As any analysis of late 20th century economic policy will unambiguously demonstrate to you, the switch from high corporate tax rates with high incentives to keep that wealth invested in the company (pension seeding, higher salaries, R&D), to supply-side, unrestrained Friedman-based capitalism, and the GOP mantra that continues to champion this proven system of theft, is what is to blame.

That fact that you believe this proven propaganda to represent some kind of truth, tells us that yes: you do blame the unions and yes, you are bitching about them for societies ills. You continue to blame the false enemy that the GOP provided for you, which is exactly what fascists of all stripes have always relied on to turn the people against the protections that they have always enjoyed, only ever to vote for the dissolution of their own value, in order to ensure that corporate, public/private overloards maintain ever more sway over their own personal freedom and economic value.

This is exactly what you voted for, and you continue to support it. Look: I get that you don't understand this. I get how effective decades of gaslighting can be, but you are literally regurgitating the worst of the worst simple propaganda and it makes you look like a sad pathetic fool that probably hasn't read a single piece of honest non-fiction in decades.

 

[zinfamous]

Where did I ever blame unions for my problems? If you want to belong to a union, go for it. I am not bitching about unions all I was saying is if you put your trust in the union mob bosses and they steal your pensions the American public shouldn't be stuck with the bill.

BTW wages around the area are going up because everybody is hiring and finding good help is very hard to find.

I also am making a wage pretty much what the union employees are making.

lol. why do you keep ignoring the actual truth, and the argument everyone is making, that no matter what you are seeing now, you are still undervalued by about 70% of the actual wage rate, prior to Reaganomics?

Do you understand what people are telling you?

It's simple yes or no:

Would you prefer to be making $180k+ instead of your current $120k? This has nothing to do with current comparatives. Everyone's wages are effected by the same generational theft. That's how public policy works over the course of decades.

I'm just curious about the world in which you don't seem to care that you are fundamentally losing $60k and more per year because your bosses magically deserve more of that, while some other mysterious enemies (not your bosses!) have been stealing that pension, more and more.

 

[zinfamous]

The FYGM argument. Here is something to think about, the companies job is to lower your salary as much as they can while still getting the job done. If you think they are above using the relative power imbalance between you and them to squeeze you out then you are naive. I know of a company in Houston that in the 90's coordinated with several other companies in the same industry to lay off every single employee working that job and offered to hire them back at roughly half their old pay. They were able to get away with it because there was no union to stop them. It probably was not even legal, but I challenge you to prove that the actually coordinated instead of just reacting to an opportunity.

It is a simple matter of fact that in every single right-to-work state (hard core GOP beacons of freedom), wage theft, loss of benefits, inconsistent employment has precipitated at a vastly greater rate than states which enjoy stronger union presence. It's a simple matter of observable data. It isn't any other way.

But the Unions are evil, and they are, against all measurable point of data, somehow reducing actual wages wherever they exist. It's astonishing the amount of brain fuck that can be achieved to convince someone that 2+2 = 7, even when you show them several examples of how adding 2 apples to another 2 apples gives you 4 apples. ...but many have been won over, and they continue to vote for their own worst selves. Truly amazing.

https://www.epi.org/publication/right-to-work-states-have-lower-wages/

 

[senseamp]

As long as it's coming from the wasteful military spending and not domestic programs, I am OK with it. But no backfilling it with deficit spending.

 

[thilanliyan]

Unions were once needed and valuable entities but have become a heavy burden and if you voluntarily belong to one and put your trust in the hands of mob bosees I don't think the American public should bail you out.

I have worked both in and out of a union. I am relatively young (in my 30s) with no health issues so I use very little of the benefits provided.

However, I am very glad to now be in a union. At my previous job one of the managers took a disliking to me and made things very difficult, but there was nothing much I could do besides quit, which I did. I am part of a union at my current place and while there may be some people who are protected despite not being very productive that is definitely not the majority. The only way for the average worker to exert some influence with regards to pay/working conditions/etc is through collective bargaining...very few to no companies will do those things out of the goodness of their hearts. And I did take a pay raise coming to the union job but it isn't an apples-to-apples comparison.

Unions are absolutely needed to protect the average worker.

 

[SMOGZINN]

As long as it's coming from the wasteful military spending and not domestic programs, I am OK with it. But no backfilling it with deficit spending.

But that is exactly what the GOP is talking about already. They are already gearing up the arguments about how we can't allow our military to be underfunded, how the jobs will be lost, bla-bla-bla. The truth of the matter is if we backfill those programs Trump will simply steal the money again because he is going to need more money next year to continue work on his wall. Fool me once...

 

[pauldun170]

Challenger want's to get rid of Police unions. How woke of her.

The rest of you are getting pulled into bullshit whataboutism.

 

[Amused]

Indoctrinated liberal talking points while still not answering my question. Real life experience means more to me than government sponsored left tainted studies. Have fun.

I see this same thing all the time. From science deniers. Flat Earthers. Anti-vaxxers. Alt-med dupes. MLM suckers.

The list goes on.

The absolute refusal to accept that one's own, or anyone else's anecdotal story is NOT the norm and that statistical, scientific evidence shows that. The rejection of any fact that may challenge their worldview.

Fundamentalists do this. Cultists do this. Conspiracy theorists do this. Science denialists do this.

And you do this.

 

[Kobota]

Nice deflection.

Have you ever worked with union people? I have and they protect the lazy and the stupid more than they do for the good employees. My company (which is doubling in size from 200 to more than 400 in the next year) hires contractors and they are moving away from the unions yet still pay scale pay and better benefits. I am a maintenance tech so I work closely with contractors and most of them are glad they don't pay dues anymore because it is thier money and they can use it as they see fit. They also have the ability to get rid of dead weight without having to go through the union red tape saving them money, time and stress.


Unions were once needed and valuable entities but have become a heavy burden and if you voluntarily belong to one and put your trust in the hands of mob bosees I don't think the American public should bail you out.

If congress can find the money to bail out the criminals that stole from workers pensions without investigating where the money went, why can't they find money for the military and a wall for protectio of our border against invasion by illegal?

My company is union, and we make 70% more than all other local companies. Been around for 120 years and doig fine. Lets take your anecdotal evidence as fact. Oh, you are just a piece of worthess shit . Unions just got me a 15% pay increase . Lets go back to slave labor, working the coal mines.