Thermaltake Toughpower 1200W, Beast or Burden?

[Sunbeam65]

Hello All (First timer here),

I?m curious why the Thermaltake Toughpower 1200W is not on AnandTech?s High-End Buyers' Guide May 2007 component list, even as an alternate power supply choice.
This PSU has been getting stellar reviews from all sources I can find (though AnandTech has not yet reviewed it.)

If someone knows why it is not on AnandTech?s list, or if there is something bad about this particular unit, or Thermaltake power supplies in general, please let me know. (You may save me from possibly making an expensive mistake.)

Is there something I don?t know about the Thermaltake Toughpower?

Anyway, some background information for those who are interested:

I?m building my first (high-end gaming) rig. Money is no object (at least for the power supply).

I?ve spent the last month reading pretty much every possible piece of information available on the entire internet, regarding almost every possible high-end power supply. (Not to mention five books). I think I?ve read all the major reviews on the primary power supply choices over 700 Watts. I?ve decided to play it safe by getting a 750 to 1000W so I don?t have to worry about it for a few years. (This will be an Intel Quad Core / NVIDIA 680i SLI based system with dual 8800 GTX?s.)

As far as PSU?s, the contenders are:

PC Power & Cooling Turbo-Cool 1KW SR
PC Power & Cooling SILENCER 750 QUAD 750W
Antec TPQ-850 TruePower Quattro 850W
Antec TPQ-1000 TruePower Quattro 1000W
Cooler Master Real Power Pro 1000W
Enermax 850W
SilverStone Olympia OP1000
SilverStone Strider ST1000
Thermaltake Toughpower 1200W W0133RU
OCZ GameXStream (1000W)
OCZ ProXStream OCZ1000PXS (1000W)
Tagan TurboJet TG1100-U96 (1100W)
Topower PowerTrain TOP-1000P9 U14 (1000W)

Here is my ?Short" List with a few comments on each PSU:

PC Power & Cooling Turbo-Cool 1KW SR
Good: Smoothest DC output signal of any PSU
Good: PCP&P Quality and Reliability
Good: PCP&P manufactures all their own PSU?s
Bad: Too Loud for Home (non industrial) use (80mm Fan just can not handle 1KW)
Bad: Lower efficiency than some competitors at low loads
Bad: Single 12V Rail can be dangerous (high amps)

PC Power & Cooling SILENCER 750 QUAD 750W
Good: A lot quieter than the Turbo-Cool 1KW
Good: Rock-solid DC output
Good: PCP&C Quality and Reliability
Good: One of the better Efficiency numbers on the market
Bad: Still very noisy at high load (80mm fan)
Bad: 750W is at the low end of power requirements for an SLI system

Antec TPQ-850 TruePower Quattro 850W
Good: Antec Reputation
Good: Clean DC output (almost as good as PCP&C)
Bad: Mixed Reviews
Bad: 80mm Fan is not quiet at high load
Bad: Antec does not manufacture their own PSU?s
Bad: Poor Efficiency at low loads (less than 200W)
See: http://www.jonnyguru.com/review_details.php?id=120

Antec TPQ-1000 TruePower Quattro 1000W
Good: Antec Reputation
Bad: So new that there are NO available reviews of this product to be found

SilverStone Strider ST1000
Good: Selected by Falcon Northwest for their Mach V Gaming Rig
Good: High Efficiency
Good: Generally Good Reviews
Bad: Not as clean DC output as PCP&C
Bad: Modular multiple 12 V Rail is safer but requires planning ahead for connections
Bad: Silverstone?s have shut down in some stress tests
See: http://www.extremetech.com/art.../0,1697,1932947,00.asp

Thermaltake Toughpower 1200W W0133RU
Good: Highest Efficiency of any Power Supply in Existence (up to 87%)
Good: Rock solid efficiency never drops below 80% even at highest and lowest loads
Good: Large 120mm Fan makes for one of the quietest PSU?s even at high load.
Good: Highest total Amp (current) capacity of any PC power supply in existence.
Bad: Not quite as clean DC output as PCP&C (120mm peak to peak on 12V Rail)
Modular multiple 12 V Rail is safer but requires planning ahead for connections
See hardocp Review:
http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/...wxLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==

Based on general quality and reputation alone I would go with a PCP&C. I?m discovering that most experts seem to fall in the PCP&C camp. Maximum PC Guide to Extreme PC Mods authors claim to put a PCP&C in every machine they have ever built. (p146)

But apparently the PCP&C 80mm fan design does not seem to be able to keep noise down for PSU?s in the 1KW range, which is now becoming popular for larger dual video SLI systems. According to several reviewers the PCP&C Turbo-Cool can be disturbingly loud.

I?m VERY curious about the Antec TruePower Quattro TPQ-1000 but, alas, there is simply no information anywhere to be found, because it is so new.

Based on this information I?m tempted to go with the Thermaltake Toughpower 1200W.

There are a lot of reviews available, and every single one without exception has given it their highest accolades. For instance: ?At this time there is no consumer power supply available on the retail market with advertised 12v load specifications close to the Toughpower 1200w let alone delivering on them in our testing procedure.?

See: http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/...wxLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==

As far as multiple 12V rails is concerned, one tester claims that the voltage drop due to resistance at the modular connectors is not significant (as PCP&C claims).

See: http://www.motherboards.org/articles/guides/1488_1.html

But it worries me a little that AnandTech has avoided this Thermaltake PSU. Is there something I don?t know about?

AnandTech has proven to be my primary source of relevant information compared to about fifty other web sites, so I?m hesitant to make a purchase outside their recommendation domain.

(It?s a bit ironic that my EE degree is not helping me out here much.)

Can any of you Gaming PC Mod gurus out there point me in the right direction?

Sunbeam

 

[BoomerD]

http://jonnyguru.com/review_details.php?id=107

 

[JEDIYoda]

It recieved an excellent review over at johnny`s site....

Johnny has it listed as a teir 2 power supply.
Mainly from what I understand because in the past thermaltake PSU`s have not been considered to be that good.
Even though this is a good solid poerformer the test of time has not been long enough to be considered at teir 1.

As far as your purchase.....I see no reason not to purchase this beasts!!

Peace!!

 

[thecoolnessrune]

To the 80mm inefficiency argument. I dont know about that. It seems to me as long as things stayed relatively sealed that a suction of air via a channel along the components and heatsinks sounds like a better idea than a 120mm fan swirling air turbulently over the components. I doubt a company like PC P&C would be foolish. I personally think it makes more sense, even if it is louder.

 

[jonnyGURU]

Originally posted by: Sunbeam65
I?m curious why the Thermaltake Toughpower 1200W is not on AnandTech?s High-End Buyers' Guide May 2007 component list, even as an alternate power supply choice.
This PSU has been getting stellar reviews from all sources I can find (though AnandTech has not yet reviewed it.)

Because Anandtech doesn't know any better?

I mean, look at the choices offered:

Corsair HX620W is a good choice, but far from "high end." I mean, it's quiet, it's efficient an it's affordable, but I wouldn't recommend it for high end SLI/Crossfire for the long term. I don't care if you're only pulling 400W from the wall right now. Call me in a year or two after the PSU dies and tell me how it feels.

The Silencer 750W isn't really any different (Seasonic built) except for a little more juice and a different fan configuration. It can put out more power, but the already mediocre voltage regulation just gets worst from there.

Then there's the OCZ/FSP 1010W. What a horrid lump of crap that thing is. It sure as hell can't do 1010W... well, maybe at 25C with 230V input. The thing can't even be used as a paper weight it's so light.

None of the recommendations hold a candle to:

Thermaltake Toughpower 1000W/1200W
Ultra X3 800W/1000W
Cooler Master Real Power Pro 1000W
Enermax Infiniti 720W
Etasis 750W/850W
SilverStone Zeus 750W/850W
Ultra X-Pro 750W

If Anandtech has some commitment to those particular brands, the proper suggestions would have been the PCP&C Turbo-Cool 1000W, with the caveat that it can be quite loud, and the OCZ ProXStream 1000W, which isn't as loud as the PCP&C, but can potentially get loud.

If noise is an issue, then stick with the first four PSU's in my list. Yes, it's true that 80MM front to back cooling cools way better than updraft cooling. Have a look at Matt's review of the Rosewill Xtreme units. The unit with the 80MM ran much cooler than the one with the 135MM:

http://www.jonnyguru.com/review_details.php?id=122

But the fact of the matter is that even a high end rig isn't going to push a good 1000W to even 75% of it's capability for more than a minute at a time (power usage isn't linear, it's actually quite erratic) and may peak out at 80% of it's capability. What that means is a unit that's built to put out that much power is going to be running much cooler than it's designed to tolerate, so the fan is going to be more than adequate.

If you REALLY THINK you need a PSU that can put out a continuous 800 to 1000W and therefore need the cooling required to sustain low temperatures during 800W to 1000W loads, then I suggest the Etasis, SilverStone Zeus, X-Pro 750W, Turbo-Cool or ProXStream hands down. I also would have to assume that noise is no issue because if you have a rig that actually needs that much power all of the time, the PSU is still going to be the quietest thing in the build unless EVERYTHING is water cooled because components that use that much power put out a lot of heat. Even if you did have water cooling, your hard drives would probably still drown out the PSU because you would probably have a minimum of 4 to 6 hard drives in that machine and that can be pretty loud in itself.

 

[jonnyGURU]

And when I say "doesn't know any better," I don't mean to be mean.

The guide was written before Anandtech did power supply reviews. Also, it's impossible for one person to know everything about everything.

 

[John]

Originally posted by: jonnyGURU
Corsair HX620W is a good choice, but far from "high end." I mean, it's quiet, it's efficient an it's affordable, but I wouldn't recommend it for high end SLI/Crossfire for the long term. I don't care if you're only pulling 400W from the wall right now. Call me in a year or two after the PSU dies and tell me how it feels.

I sense a Deja Vu. :shocked:

400W x 82% = 328W (53%) load on the psu. How exactly is that loading up an HX620? Are you basing your failure predictions on a case w/ zero airflow and a factoring in a massive derating curve?

 

[jonnyGURU]

Why do you need to ask the question again. Are my views not completely spelled out in the post you linked?

I do not think it's wise to run a PSU at 50% or greater of it's capability for the long haul. Period.

 

[John]

We are discussing a quality psu w/ full output rated @ 50C. Obviously your 200% rule is good for recommending high wattage psu's and increasing the profits of your sponsors. I'm not the only one who thinks the JG200% rule is overkill. I suppose in a couple of years if we suddenly start seeing a rash of top tier psu failures that were only run @ 50-60% load 24/7 you can say "I told you so", but until then it's nothing more than speculation.

 

[GalvanizedYankee]

"increasing the profits of your sponsors" is a cheap shot AND a button push. I seriously doubt that is jon's intent.

I suspected your intent John, when you were the first to rush to Antec's defence, when I was screaming about their CWT units being populated with failing Fuhjyyu caps.

Oh! Lets not forget the flash/banging Enermax Libertys. Some of those units let out the majic smoke while only supporting a light load. I remember when just about everyone was ga-ga over the Liberty units.

Only time will tell what a HX620 would do with a 500W load 24/7 for 365. My money would be on a 600W Zippy/Emacs over a Corsair. For the high end gaming guys, that might have intermitent loads of 750+W, they had better have 800+W in hand.

SPCR? They should go to their quiet room for a nap.

 

[John]

Intent or not, Jon is assuming something will happen. We can all assume a lot of things.

GY, like clockwork you bring up the Antec/Fuhjyyu cap issue as if it's something that I have denied over the years. I've sold copious amounts of TP1/2 + SP's, used them in countless builds, and I have RMA'ed about 10 of them in a span of 3 years. Yes there is a problem with the Chinese feces caps when they get hot. What else am I supposed to say?

Even though you prefer loud server psu's, that doesn't mean the Seasonic built psu's will fail under a 60% load 24/7. Again, lot's of assuming going on here wihout an ounce of fact to show otherwise. Sheesh, I am starting to sound like dclive.

SPCR staff is planning on having their annual meeting in the AnandTech padded cube.

 

[jonnyGURU]

I admit that I am only "assuming" the longevity of a PSU run 24/7 at a minimum of a 50% load, but why not be on the side of "cautious" instead of siding with "reckless."

Also, we're basing a lot of power consumption figures on Kill-A-Watt type devices. A device that we know to be very inaccurate and that we know has a slow sampling rate and doesn't always measure occasional peaks in the load.

I like being cautious.

EDIT: As for the cheap sponsor shot you took. Isn't Corsair essentially my only sponsor? So how is recommending AGAINST a Corsair going to help their profit margins? You're not that dense.

 

[John]

I have no idea how many sponsors you have, but you do have a lot of companies sending you review samples.

 

[MrOblivious]

Originally posted by: John
I have no idea how many sponsors you have, but you do have a lot of companies sending you review samples.

Then one would think you would refrain from speaking about a topic that you have no knowledge of, no?

 

[John]

Originally posted by: MrOblivious

Originally posted by: John
I have no idea how many sponsors you have, but you do have a lot of companies sending you review samples.

Then one would think you would refrain from speaking about a topic that you have no knowledge of, no?

Spectre, welcome to AnandTech. It's always nice watching employees come to the aid of their boss. My comment holds merit and was not a personal attack on Jon in any way. If anyone assumes that it was please accept my apology. Jon has a lot of influence on people, therefore as long as he recommends psu's in any range then it leads to more profits for the psu mfg's.

 

[MrDudeMan]

Originally posted by: jonnyGURU
I admit that I am only "assuming" the longevity of a PSU run 24/7 at a minimum of a 50% load, but why not be on the side of "cautious" instead of siding with "reckless."

Also, we're basing a lot of power consumption figures on Kill-A-Watt type devices. A device that we know to be very inaccurate and that we know has a slow sampling rate and doesn't always measure occasional peaks in the load.

I like being cautious.

EDIT: As for the cheap sponsor shot you took. Isn't Corsair essentially my only sponsor? So how is recommending AGAINST a Corsair going to help their profit margins? You're not that dense.

Being cautious is fine until you start recommending that to everyone else. Picking a PSU for a system to hover around 50% at max usage is absolutely crazy. So when you are driving, do you stay around 900-1000 RPM the entire time? That's cautious too, right? Or, and I'm assuming this, you use the car like it was intended and you actually press down on the gas pedal.

PSUs were designed, by several people, to supply power at more than 50% load. That is crazy talk no matter how you dice it to say the longevity of the device will be questionable if you use it within its rated specifications.

 

[MrDudeMan]

But the fact of the matter is that even a high end rig isn't going to push a good 1000W to even 75% of it's capability for more than a minute at a time (power usage isn't linear, it's actually quite erratic) and may peak out at 80% of it's capability. What that means is a unit that's built to put out that much power is going to be running much cooler than it's designed to tolerate, so the fan is going to be more than adequate.

You have got to be kidding me. 800W? A quad socket quad-core Kentsfield system wouldn't use 800W, and I doubt many consumers will be using that. How do I know the power rating? Well, I own one first of all, and I can do simple math like multiplying the power consumption by 4. There is no way in hell you will ever use 80% of a 1KW PSU in a consumer system, even with SLI and quad cores.

 

[jonnyGURU]

Originally posted by: MrDudeMan
Being cautious is fine until you start recommending that to everyone else. Picking a PSU for a system to hover around 50% at max usage is absolutely crazy. So when you are driving, do you stay around 900-1000 RPM the entire time? That's cautious too, right? Or, and I'm assuming this, you use the car like it was intended and you actually press down on the gas pedal.

PSUs were designed, by several people, to supply power at more than 50% load. That is crazy talk no matter how you dice it to say the longevity of the device will be questionable if you use it within its rated specifications.

You shouldn't try to assume who I am or what I recommend out of context or based on what I've said in a couple threads. I don't over-recommend PSU's by telling people they need 1000W PSU's if they're only going to pull 300 to 500W from the wall. On the other hand, I'm not going to suggest a 500W PSU for something that pulls 400W from the wall. There's no one unit that's perfect for everyone.

Originally posted by: MrDudeMan

But the fact of the matter is that even a high end rig isn't going to push a good 1000W to even 75% of it's capability for more than a minute at a time (power usage isn't linear, it's actually quite erratic) and may peak out at 80% of it's capability. What that means is a unit that's built to put out that much power is going to be running much cooler than it's designed to tolerate, so the fan is going to be more than adequate.

You have got to be kidding me. 800W? A quad socket quad-core Kentsfield system wouldn't use 800W, and I doubt many consumers will be using that. How do I know the power rating? Well, I own one first of all, and I can do simple math like multiplying the power consumption by 4. There is no way in hell you will ever use 80% of a 1KW PSU in a consumer system, even with SLI and quad cores.

I hate being antagonistic, but you are clueless, my friend. I've had systems as "small" as a quad core with a pair of X1950XTX's pull as much as 500W from the wall average and kill a Corsair HX520W within a month and I've had a quad father with a pair of 8800GTX's not even post with less than a 700W Seasonic M12 and actually lock without at least an 800W PSU when running benchmarks and burn-ins, pulling as much as 800W from the wall on average.

And I don't use a crappy little Kill-A-Watt.

 

[Makaveli]

Keep it going guys I like the back and forth very entertaining after a long day of work =P

A recommendation is all that it is, I love reviews from both Anandtech and John. However just because you guys recommend a product, doesn't mean I open my wallet right away. A smart customer must still do his own research, and if John recommends someone to buy a 800watt psu and they only need a 400 watt one, I don't fault him for it at all. You need to know what your system requires, if you spend 200 on that PSU and don't need it then you are quite foolish and i'd glady take your money lol!

 

[dclive]

Originally posted by: John
Even though you prefer loud server psu's, that doesn't mean the Seasonic built psu's will fail under a 60% load 24/7. Again, lot's of assuming going on here wihout an ounce of fact to show otherwise. Sheesh, I am starting to sound like dclive.

Here's an extract from the ATX spec:http://www.formfactors.org/dev...CATX_ATX12V_PS_1_1.pdf
Quote:
7.2. Mean Time Between Failures (MTBF)

the MTBF of the power supply can be calculated with the Part-Stress Analysis method of MIL-HDBK-217F using the quality factors listed in MIL-HDBK-217F. A target calculated MTBF of the power supply is greater than 100,000 hours under the following conditions:
* Full-rated load
* 120 VAC input
* Ground benign
* 25 C ambient

As you can see, power supplies must be able to run constantly at their full load - it's the law!

____

I thought this post (from a URL listed above) was most interesting. Note: Full rated load. (We can debate "law" - clearly an ATX spec maker isn't "the law".)

 

[GalvanizedYankee]

"It's the law." :laugh:

Like JEDEC or Form Factors means anything to the Chinese.

Wanna buy toys covered with lead based paint or pet food that will kill the cat?

 

[JAG87]

the rule is, calculate your WATTS by using the main component's TDP rating, therefore CPU(s) + VGA(s). Then add 50W for the motherboard. Then add 100W for everything else (sound card, fans, drives, lights, pumps, and so on). now take that value and add 20%

and that is your PSU recommended wattage.

example:

Q6600 B3 > 105W
8800 GTX > 185W
motherboard > 50W
everything else > 100W

= 440W x 1.20 = 528W

hence, a 520W power supply would be ideal for a system like that. jonny like to be a bit more cautious than that with his 50% load rule, but at least he is over dimensioning, something that all the rest of you are failing to do. don't cry when your PSU blows 5-6 years down the road.

 

[PurdueRy]

Originally posted by: JAG87
the rule is, calculate your WATTS by using the main component's TDP rating, therefore CPU(s) + VGA(s). Then add 50W for the motherboard. Then add 100W for everything else (sound card, fans, drives, lights, pumps, and so on). now take that value and add 20%

and that is your PSU recommended wattage.

example:

Q6600 B3 > 105W
8800 GTX > 185W
motherboard > 50W
everything else > 100W

= 440W x 1.20 = 528W

hence, a 520W power supply would be ideal for a system like that. jonny like to be a bit more cautious than that with his 50% load rule, but at least he is over dimensioning, something that all the rest of you are failing to do. don't cry when your PSU blows 5-6 years down the road.

Again, the 8800GTX is only 131W peak power, not 185.

 

[dclive]

Originally posted by: JAG87
don't cry when your PSU blows 5-6 years down the road.

You're kidding, right? Is anyone here seriously using the same PSU they had from 5-6 years ago?!

 

[JAG87]

Originally posted by: PurdueRy

Originally posted by: JAG87
the rule is, calculate your WATTS by using the main component's TDP rating, therefore CPU(s) + VGA(s). Then add 50W for the motherboard. Then add 100W for everything else (sound card, fans, drives, lights, pumps, and so on). now take that value and add 20%

and that is your PSU recommended wattage.

example:

Q6600 B3 > 105W
8800 GTX > 185W
motherboard > 50W
everything else > 100W

= 440W x 1.20 = 528W

hence, a 520W power supply would be ideal for a system like that. jonny like to be a bit more cautious than that with his 50% load rule, but at least he is over dimensioning, something that all the rest of you are failing to do. don't cry when your PSU blows 5-6 years down the road.

Again, the 8800GTX is only 131W peak power, not 185.

negative

Originally posted by: dclive

Originally posted by: JAG87
don't cry when your PSU blows 5-6 years down the road.

You're kidding, right? Is anyone here seriously using the same PSU they had from 5-6 years ago?!

no I am not kidding. I only buy a PSU every 5-6 years. and usually the reason I buy a new psu is for either improved cable management, or connector compatibility. not so much for the wattage. I bought the galaxy when it first came out about 2 years ago, and I was lucky enough to be able to RMA it to enermax this past winter and exchange it with the DXX Gamer's Edition which includes the 8 pin pci-e connectors for a small fee. I dont plan on buying a new PSU for another 5-6 years, unless something revolutionary comes out.