There's No Pain-Free Cure for Recession

Capitalizt

Banned
Nov 28, 2004
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Schiff has been predicting the current economic events for years, and nails it again with this article. It's a shame most politicians and mainstream economists continue to marginalize views like his.

WSJ Editorial

As recession fears cause the nation to embrace greater state control of the economy and unimaginable federal deficits, one searches in vain for debate worthy of the moment. Where there should be an historic clash of ideas, there is only blind resignation and an amorphous queasiness that we are simply sweeping the slouching beast under the rug.

With faith in the free markets now taking a back seat to fear and expediency, nearly the entire political spectrum agrees that the federal government must spend whatever amount is necessary to stabilize the housing market, bail out financial firms, liquefy the credit markets, create jobs and make the recession as shallow and brief as possible. The few who maintain free-market views have been largely marginalized.

Taking the theories of economist John Maynard Keynes as gospel, our most highly respected contemporary economists imagine a complex world in which economics at the personal, corporate and municipal levels are governed by laws far different from those in effect at the national level.

Individuals, companies or cities with heavy debt and shrinking revenues instinctively know that they must reduce spending, tighten their belts, pay down debt and live within their means. But it is axiomatic in Keynesianism that national governments can create and sustain economic activity by injecting printed money into the financial system. In their view, absent the stimuli of the New Deal and World War II, the Depression would never have ended.

On a gut level, we have a hard time with this concept. There is a vague sense of smoke and mirrors, of something being magically created out of nothing. But economics, we are told, is complicated.

It would be irresponsible in the extreme for an individual to forestall a personal recession by taking out newer, bigger loans when the old loans can't be repaid. However, this is precisely what we are planning on a national level.

I believe these ideas hold sway largely because they promise happy, pain-free solutions. They are the economic equivalent of miracle weight-loss programs that require no dieting or exercise. The theories permit economists to claim mystic wisdom, governments to pretend that they have the power to dispel hardship with the whir of a printing press, and voters to believe that they can have recovery without sacrifice.

As a follower of the Austrian School of economics I believe that market forces apply equally to people and nations. The problems we face collectively are no different from those we face individually. Belt tightening is required by all, including government.

Governments cannot create but merely redirect. When the government spends, the money has to come from somewhere. If the government doesn't have a surplus, then it must come from taxes. If taxes don't go up, then it must come from increased borrowing. If lenders won't lend, then it must come from the printing press, which is where all these bailouts are headed. But each additional dollar printed diminishes the value those already in circulation. Something cannot be effortlessly created from nothing.

Similarly, any jobs or other economic activity created by public-sector expansion merely comes at the expense of jobs lost in the private sector. And if the government chooses to save inefficient jobs in select private industries, more efficient jobs will be lost in others. As more factors of production come under government control, the more inefficient our entire economy becomes. Inefficiency lowers productivity, stifles competitiveness and lowers living standards.

If we look at government market interventions through this pragmatic lens, what can we expect from the coming avalanche of federal activism?

By borrowing more than it can ever pay back, the government will guarantee higher inflation for years to come, thereby diminishing the value of all that Americans have saved and acquired. For now the inflationary tide is being held back by the countervailing pressures of bursting asset bubbles in real estate and stocks, forced liquidations in commodities, and troubled retailers slashing prices to unload excess inventory. But when the dust settles, trillions of new dollars will remain, chasing a diminished supply of goods. We will be left with 1970s-style stagflation, only with a much sharper contraction and significantly higher inflation.

The good news is that economics is not all that complicated. The bad news is that our economy is broken and there is nothing the government can do to fix it. However, the free market does have a cure: it's called a recession, and it's not fun, easy or quick. But if we put our faith in the power of government to make the pain go away, we will live with the consequences for generations.

:thumbsup:
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,963
47,860
136
It's hard to take this guy seriously. He's been predicting imminent doom and gloom for pretty much his entire professional career. Sure he was right about this, but sooner or later he was bound to be right. It's like betting on a single number on a roulette wheel forever and then saying "see? I told you so" when it finally hits.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: eskimospy
It's hard to take this guy seriously. He's been predicting imminent doom and gloom for pretty much his entire professional career. Sure he was right about this, but sooner or later he was bound to be right. It's like betting on a single number on a roulette wheel forever and then saying "see? I told you so" when it finally hits.

Peter is not anonymous
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: eskimospy
It's hard to take this guy seriously. He's been predicting imminent doom and gloom for pretty much his entire professional career. Sure he was right about this, but sooner or later he was bound to be right. It's like betting on a single number on a roulette wheel forever and then saying "see? I told you so" when it finally hits.

Schiff is like Dave. Stick a prediction out there and eventually it'll happen.
 

CME25

Junior Member
Jan 3, 2009
4
0
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But really, isn't all of the recent government intervention the opposite idea of capitalism and free market?
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: CME25
But really, isn't all of the recent government intervention the opposite idea of capitalism and free market?

Capitalism? No.

The funny thing about government intervention is that it's actually just another form of capitalism. Investors fund projects by funding the government.

Free markets are nothing more than a libertopian dream. True free markets are abusive against those who do not have capital, in favor of those who do have capital. Robber barons made their money in the free markets. Madoff fucked people in the free markets.

Even Adam Smith acknowledged that markets should be regulated to protect those who need it.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
I predict some time in the future home prices will go up.

Schiff got one thing right (WITHOUT a time line), and then about ten things wrong.
 

gingermeggs

Golden Member
Dec 22, 2008
1,157
0
71
Originally posted by: JS80
I predict some time in the future home prices will go up.

Schiff got one thing right (WITHOUT a time line), and then about ten things wrong.

they can only go up if wages inflation does....so I don't see it happening in the next five.
 

gingermeggs

Golden Member
Dec 22, 2008
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71
Some working will benefit, mostly the artisans that service the upper end, now reclusive and feathering their nests with the loot taken, until the next wave of rape and pillage occurs 10+years in that time they will scholar their underlings, so they are well rehearsed sharp, ready and able for the next "smash and grab" on the public purse.
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
0
What needs to happen is for the idiots who got us into this situation to pay the price instead of being rewarded with 700 Billion dollars. The CEOs of large companies are very smart people and they can see that when times are good they make a SHIT TON of money by playing risk, but when times are bad they barely lose anything due to government intervention. Its like a gamble in Vegas except the odds are stacked entirely in your favor, if you win you make millions, if you lose you don't lose a dime!!! I can't say how moral anyone else is here, but I would fuck ya'll over to make 100 million dollars and still be able to sleep at night :p...
 

Capitalizt

Banned
Nov 28, 2004
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Originally posted by: JS80
I predict some time in the future home prices will go up.

Schiff got one thing right (WITHOUT a time line), and then about ten things wrong.

Perhaps...but the issue Schiff got right is a HUGE thing, and it's something that nobody else is discussing. Artificially low rates set by the federal reserve are what led to the real estate bubble in the first place. Policies of the government/fed created trillions in malinvestment...They brought about the inflated asset bubbles (and subsequent crash). If you fail to accept this as the cause of the current mess, you have no chance of correcting it. The "cure" being proposed now is nothing more than a repeat of what caused the problem in the first place...more spending..more inflation..more easy money. This Keynesian nonsense is only postponing the inevitable and will make the day of reckoning far worse when we finally face it.
 

smack Down

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2005
4,507
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The goal of the bailout isn't to make sure there is no pain, it is to move the pain onto the average person.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Some valid points, but personal and national economics are not the same; if the government spends more, it does increase productivity. The question is whether it increases to the amount equivalent or greater than its borrowing, but if a person borrows more, buys a new vehicle, house, etc. it unequivocally puts them more in debt (only exception being if their house can appreciate in value at an unusually fast pace).

Anyway, yeah it does instinctively sound like silly magic to think that the gov can spend itself out of this current mess. I suspect there's a good chance the spending is merely softening the blow, so instead of one large punch it's multiple small ones, but in the end we're still on the ground.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
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This crap has been debunked a million times before. No, adjusting key interest rates downward too quickly did not "cause" the current housing bust, nor did it cause multiple financial institutions to make bad bets. It was one of many, many more significant reasons. Everything from poor regulation and oversight, to bad risk management at the top, to overly lax lending practices. The list is probably endless, and has little to do with the Federal Reserve acting too aggressively. The alternative of doing nothing is worse; see the Great Depression, when the Fed made the biggest error in their existence, letting the money supply contract by 1/3rd (by "letting the market figure it out"), causing a deep deflationary environment that depressed wages, investment, employment, et al. A little inflation is a far, far superior alternative to the nonsense about letting the market magically fix everything. That hands-off has been proven bunk, the last 100 years is plenty proof of that. New Economics beats the crap out of Austrian economists once again, because hard data says we're far better off than we were before.
 

russki

Senior member
Nov 7, 2000
640
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0
is it mcdonalds fault for offering delicios big macs and the consumer getting fat OR
is it the consumers fault for not having the self control to not eat the big mac and getting fat?


while the financial institutions made it too easy to borrow money, it is the peoples fault for taking out loans while they knew they couldnt afford it and foreclosing on homes.
 

ericlp

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
6,133
219
106
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: eskimospy
It's hard to take this guy seriously. He's been predicting imminent doom and gloom for pretty much his entire professional career. Sure he was right about this, but sooner or later he was bound to be right. It's like betting on a single number on a roulette wheel forever and then saying "see? I told you so" when it finally hits.

Schiff is like Dave. Stick a prediction out there and eventually it'll happen.

The only problem with you idiots...

Everything is great! The economy is doing wonderful!

Look, I'm all for a rosy and peachy positive attitude but come on! Tell it like it is. Sheesh!

It's not like that at all, I could see if he was stuck on doom and gloom for the last 20 years. No, It's only been the last 6 or so years.

It's not like we have a major global market failure ever 10-20 years.

I think a lot people could see this going to happen, including myself. At least use half a brain cell and be opinionated.

 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Originally posted by: Capitalizt
Originally posted by: JS80
I predict some time in the future home prices will go up.

Schiff got one thing right (WITHOUT a time line), and then about ten things wrong.

Perhaps...but the issue Schiff got right is a HUGE thing, and it's something that nobody else is discussing. Artificially low rates set by the federal reserve are what led to the real estate bubble in the first place. Policies of the government/fed created trillions in malinvestment...They brought about the inflated asset bubbles (and subsequent crash). If you fail to accept this as the cause of the current mess, you have no chance of correcting it. The "cure" being proposed now is nothing more than a repeat of what caused the problem in the first place...more spending..more inflation..more easy money. This Keynesian nonsense is only postponing the inevitable and will make the day of reckoning far worse when we finally face it.

I agree with that however right now the fed is combating deflation. They need to create inflation pressues to do this. The biggest issue sounded like an easing of lending rules coupled with low fed rates equaled the avg american was able to live a lifestyle beyond their income based on their home rising in value. The one thing I never understood is how these banks were able to or thought it a good idea to sell lines of credit on homes. I could if I wanted and probably should buy everyting with my sub 5% home equity line of credit. Who needs a CC? The problem of course is the housing bubble create from the above got the idiots in over their heads. When things crashed they could no longer afford their lifestyle afforded to them by a house appraising at 10-12% a year or tens of thousands of dollar in extra income.

Now I agree this keynesian nonsense wont end well. People piss and moan about Bush's tax cuts that amounted to 60 billion\year in lost revenue. We are talking a trillion dollars in stimulus packages in a single year. It would take 15 years of Bush tax cuts to equal that much in deficit spending. And what do you think we will honestly get for it? There was an editorial on some of the proposals mayors are submitting for this stimulus package. Baseball muesuems, hockey rinks, restoring wetlands for politicians neighbors. Fleecing of america right there and it wont pull us out of this recession any faster but cost trillions more.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,963
47,860
136
Schiff has been predicting disaster for a lot longer than 6 years. In addition, you're putting words in my mouth by trying to say I thought our economy has been great. Having a brain cell means critically examining the people you are listening to for advice, and if one guy is always predicting the same thing, that should tell you that when it happens one out of the 5 times he's done it, that maybe he's not quite the oracle you think he is.
 

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
12
81
Originally posted by: russki
is it mcdonalds fault for offering delicios big macs and the consumer getting fat OR
is it the consumers fault for not having the self control to not eat the big mac and getting fat?


while the financial institutions made it too easy to borrow money, it is the peoples fault for taking out loans while they knew they couldnt afford it and foreclosing on homes.

The problem is that many here will argue it is the former and not the latter, or a combo of both...personally I am all about personable responsibility, if you get yourself into something as large as a home purchase you had better read the fine print.
 

Slew Foot

Lifer
Sep 22, 2005
12,381
96
86
Originally posted by: bozack
Originally posted by: russki
is it mcdonalds fault for offering delicios big macs and the consumer getting fat OR
is it the consumers fault for not having the self control to not eat the big mac and getting fat?


while the financial institutions made it too easy to borrow money, it is the peoples fault for taking out loans while they knew they couldnt afford it and foreclosing on homes.

The problem is that many here will argue it is the former and not the latter, or a combo of both...personally I am all about personable responsibility, if you get yourself into something as large as a home purchase you had better read the fine print.

The fine print says that the buyer can pay for the mortgage or the bank can take the home. If the bank didnt want to lose piles of money, they should have demanded down payments.

 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,062
1
0
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: eskimospy
It's hard to take this guy seriously. He's been predicting imminent doom and gloom for pretty much his entire professional career. Sure he was right about this, but sooner or later he was bound to be right. It's like betting on a single number on a roulette wheel forever and then saying "see? I told you so" when it finally hits.

Schiff is like Dave. Stick a prediction out there and eventually it'll happen.

i was going to say the dave is the p&n equivalent of peter shciff.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
2
61
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: eskimospy
It's hard to take this guy seriously. He's been predicting imminent doom and gloom for pretty much his entire professional career. Sure he was right about this, but sooner or later he was bound to be right. It's like betting on a single number on a roulette wheel forever and then saying "see? I told you so" when it finally hits.

Schiff is like Dave. Stick a prediction out there and eventually it'll happen.

i was going to say the dave is the p&n equivalent of peter shciff.

And you both look like your username in doing so.

Big difference between a making a prediction without any rationale (Dave) and Peter Schiff.

Watch all 8 parts (the Q&A at the end is great)

But its not like he was the only one who saw this coming.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: eskimospy
It's hard to take this guy seriously. He's been predicting imminent doom and gloom for pretty much his entire professional career. Sure he was right about this, but sooner or later he was bound to be right. It's like betting on a single number on a roulette wheel forever and then saying "see? I told you so" when it finally hits.

Schiff is like Dave. Stick a prediction out there and eventually it'll happen.

i was going to say the dave is the p&n equivalent of peter shciff.

And you both look like your username in doing so.

Big difference between a making a prediction without any rationale (Dave) and Peter Schiff.

Watch all 8 parts (the Q&A at the end is great)

But its not like he was the only one who saw this coming.

Wow, he was so revolutionary in his statements. I was making them 3 years before that. Being an Austrian economist and being able to see reality are not linked.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: ericlp
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: eskimospy
It's hard to take this guy seriously. He's been predicting imminent doom and gloom for pretty much his entire professional career. Sure he was right about this, but sooner or later he was bound to be right. It's like betting on a single number on a roulette wheel forever and then saying "see? I told you so" when it finally hits.

Schiff is like Dave. Stick a prediction out there and eventually it'll happen.

The only problem with you idiots...

Everything is great! The economy is doing wonderful!

Look, I'm all for a rosy and peachy positive attitude but come on! Tell it like it is. Sheesh!

It's not like that at all, I could see if he was stuck on doom and gloom for the last 20 years. No, It's only been the last 6 or so years.

It's not like we have a major global market failure ever 10-20 years.

I think a lot people could see this going to happen, including myself. At least use half a brain cell and be opinionated.

Yeah, that's exactly what I said. I have always maintained the economy is perfect...

Nice style of debating.

I have quite a stance on this subject, as anybody with a quarter of a brain cell could see from my numerous posts. You must have one fifth a brain cell though.