The Wisest Remedy Is Not Impeachment of Trump

JEDI

Lifer
Sep 25, 2001
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https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/05/impeach-trump-not-yet/590578/

- after yesterday’s Mueller statement that there is strong evidence that Trump obstructed justice, Dems are pushing harder for impeachment.
- Right now Trump is fighting on many fronts to suppress many investigations of many different forms of alleged wrongdoing. He must plug more holes in the dike than he has fingers.
- But if Impeachment, then Trump just has to concentrate on that item
- Even if indicted by the House, he will never be removed by the Repub Senate
- After his Senate acquittal, Trump will say something like This issue was litigated. I have been exonerated.

And most importantly:
Impeachment now threatens to turn the 2020 election into a referendum on the Democrats’ methods in Congress, not Trump’s wrongdoing in the presidency, in the campaign, and in private life.
 

Ken g6

Programming Moderator, Elite Member
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Everybody talks before they think these days; nobody's Pence-ive enough to consider the consequences of a successful impeachment either. ;)
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
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So you are suggesting that the House forgo its Constitutional mandate to preserve the Republic and let future Presidents know that they are permitted to operate with no restraint in setting an eternal precedent to that effect.

Regarding Pence? For all his many many issues there has never been a worse person to hold Office in our history and Pence may be very bad but not nearly the would be autocratic destroyer of our nation's founding principles.
 

Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
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I think if you impeach at least you can get all the data trump has been hiding out in the open. This is probably the most important thing that needs to happen. I can't think of a recent US president we know less about and what we know about this one has been highly damning.
 

soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
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Iirc, the public polling is about 30% in favor of impeachment, until you can find something to get that number up to 60%+, Republicans in the Senate won't convict and Trump will claim vindication and might just win a second term.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
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Pence isn't a threat as it would never get through the Senate. As for the House side of it....uuuuhg. I'm beyond conflicted.

The only, and I mean....only "pro" of going for impeachment is to prove that Congress still has some constitutional duty to hold the executive branch accountable. But to what effect? He's impeached. So what. All it does is make the biggest victim in the world an even bigger victim. And it will just further embolden him. Unless he's convicted in the senate which is about as probable as a giant meteor hitting DC and ending us of this nightmare, he's still president, and will be as insufferable as ever.

We are living in a bubble world of true ignorance and cognitive dissonance. There is no rational path forward and his cult like following will just double down on worshiping him.
 

fskimospy

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Mar 10, 2006
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I'm struggling to understand why a very public airing of Trump's criminal activity is supposed to increase support for him. People like to bring up 1998 but the thing is that in that case it worked to Bill Clinton's advantage because America knew the facts and didn't think he had done anything to warrant impeachment. Something tells me that America wouldn't feel quite the same about Trump telling his lawyer to fabricate evidence in order to lie to the FBI.

Also, in case no one has noticed Trump constantly claims exoneration regardless of impeachment.
 
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vi edit

Elite Member
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I'm struggling to understand why a very public airing of Trump's criminal activity is supposed to increase support for him. People like to bring up 1998 but the thing is that in that case it worked to Bill Clinton's advantage because America knew the facts and didn't think he had done anything to warrant impeachment. Something tells me that America wouldn't feel quite the same about Trump telling his lawyer to fabricate evidence in order to lie to the FBI.

Also, in case no one has noticed Trump constantly claims exoneration regardless of impeachment.

I want to agree with your optimism. But I just can't. I live and travel deep in the heart of Trump country (Kentucky, Southern Indiana, TN, Georgia). So many of those people are lost causes at this point. A couple decades of Fox News and right wing media have left them mentally corroded.
 
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Moonbeam

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What the Mueller report tells us is that the Trump campaign actively sought Russian help to win the election and that help was given by the public release of hacked Democratic emails and by careful targeting through voter analysis and the use of fake news social media in those targeted districts. This makes both Trump and his rump graft, Pence, illigitimate with both being required to be impeached. There are no options other than that both be impeached, the charges against them and what they are guilty of made known to the voters and democracy itself be put on the auction block.

There is little to lose. Democracy is already dead. There is only that chance that the one party that might have a chance of gaining it back by freeing itself from the clutches of the wealthy will win in 2020 and act to end money as free speech and comporations as people by packing the Supreme Court with patriots.
 

Hayabusa Rider

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I want to agree with your optimism. But I just can't. I live and travel deep in the heart of Trump country (Kentucky, Southern Indiana, TN, Georgia). So many of those people are lost causes at this point. A couple decades of Fox News and right wing media have left them mentally corroded.


I believe you without doubt that wasn't really what he was getting at. If the Dems impeach and the worst comes out will those people vote harder? Push the button to their vote registers twice?

Aren't they going to vote for Trump if he was Jesus or Satan? I would say yes.

For those on the fence about voting? The truth is the last thing that Trump can withstand.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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I want to agree with your optimism. But I just can't. I live and travel deep in the heart of Trump country (Kentucky, Southern Indiana, TN, Georgia). So many of those people are lost causes at this point. A couple decades of Fox News and right wing media have left them mentally corroded.

If that's the case then what does it matter either way? Better to try and uphold the rule of law.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
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Oct 28, 1999
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I believe you without doubt that wasn't really what he was getting at. If the Dems impeach and the worst comes out will those people vote harder? Push the button to their vote registers twice?

Aren't they going to vote for Trump if he was Jesus or Satan? I would say yes.

For those on the fence about voting? The truth is the last thing that Trump can withstand.

And I'm just saying that most of us have already made up our minds on if he should be removed from office. Impeachment proceedings will do little to move that needle. Those that already want him out will just double down. Those who don't will just dig their heels and further support him. There's not much space in the middle. Impeaching is a hollow effort without the teeth of a conviction in the senate.
 
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vi edit

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If that's the case then what does it matter either way? Better to try and uphold the rule of law.

Something about the juice being worth the squeeze....

We aren't dealing with a normal president or a normal voting base any more. The guy has the biggest podium in the world to scream from and there's still a lot of ears that are listening. For as much as I bash on the guy, he certainly has a knack for playing the eternal victim and using that to his advantage.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
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I'm struggling to understand why a very public airing of Trump's criminal activity is supposed to increase support for him. People like to bring up 1998 but the thing is that in that case it worked to Bill Clinton's advantage because America knew the facts and didn't think he had done anything to warrant impeachment. Something tells me that America wouldn't feel quite the same about Trump telling his lawyer to fabricate evidence in order to lie to the FBI.

Also, in case no one has noticed Trump constantly claims exoneration regardless of impeachment.

Because Mueller released his report showing damming evidence of criminal activity by our President and what most people seem to come away with is 'No Collusion, No Obstruction'.
 

soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
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Because Mueller released his report showing damming evidence of criminal activity by our President and what most people seem to come away with is 'No Collusion, No Obstruction'.
Exactly. Their "understanding" is that if there was criminal behavior the entire government would be up in arms over it, not just Democrats. It looks to the average person as though it's not that big of a deal. The average person is an idiot when it come to this stuff, it doesn't affect their daily lives in any way.
 

Hayabusa Rider

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And I'm just saying that most of us have already made up our minds on if he should be removed from office. Impeachment proceedings will do little to move that needle. Those that already want him out will just double down. Those who don't will just dig their heels and further support him. There's not much space in the middle. Impeaching is a hollow effort without the teeth of a conviction in the senate.

I suggest looking at Nixon, where he had a high favorability rating. Once the SHIF then it went to 23%. Why? Because the truth was being revealed. Impeachment will do that and more. I agree that WE aren't uncertain and neither are Trumpettes, however the victory in the House would not have happened unless people were motivated to get out when they might stay at home and crack a beer. We need to motivate the pool of the unmotivated and disenchanted. How large is that number? I suspect enough that it would have changed the outcome of the election in 2016.

If I'm wrong? Then it's the status quo and the election proper turns out the same, whatever that is, but future Presidents are not given a perpetual pass to invulnerability.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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Because Mueller released his report showing damming evidence of criminal activity by our President and what most people seem to come away with is 'No Collusion, No Obstruction'.

Because most people have no idea what's in the report. That's why Mueller's press conference was such big news yesterday even though he basically just repeated what was already in the report. It was on TV and people could easily digest a video of it. Impeachment would be a nationwide televised event where people would finally learn what the report actually said as opposed to what our corrupt AG or conservative media claims it said.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
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Yeah I agree that impeachment needs to start soon. Get Trump on the stand under oath and put the spurs to him. And get the excuse of every representative that doesn't vote for impeachment on the record. Get Nunes on the stand while we're at it.
 

crashtech

Lifer
Jan 4, 2013
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Pelosi and team must be agonizing over the decision. I tend to agree that if there is sufficient evidence for an obstruction charge, Congress has to act, and I think they will.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
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I suggest looking at Nixon, where he had a high favorability rating. Once the SHIF then it went to 23%. Why? Because the truth was being revealed. Impeachment will do that and more. I agree that WE aren't uncertain and neither are Trumpettes, however the victory in the House would not have happened unless people were motivated to get out when they might stay at home and crack a beer. We need to motivate the pool of the unmotivated and disenchanted. How large is that number? I suspect enough that it would have changed the outcome of the election in 2016.

If I'm wrong? Then it's the status quo and the election proper turns out the same, whatever that is, but future Presidents are not given a perpetual pass to invulnerability.

Charts like this do not give me any hope.

house_party_means_1879-2015.png
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
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Because most people have no idea what's in the report. That's why Mueller's press conference was such big news yesterday even though he basically just repeated what was already in the report. It was on TV and people could easily digest a video of it. Impeachment would be a nationwide televised event where people would finally learn what the report actually said as opposed to what our corrupt AG or conservative media claims it said.

Except they won't. AT first maybe CNN and a few other channels will cover the impeachment, but quickly even that will be regulated to a 30 second clip twice a day. Most people will read the headlines every morning, hear a curated 30 second sound bite from the day's trial and that will be all they know, that is until they get bored of even that. What do you think the odds are that Fox News' headlines will be anything like 'Testimony sheds light on Trump crimes' instead of 'Nunes harsh criticism shows Democrats are still unfairly accusing Trump'?
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
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I'm struggling to understand why a very public airing of Trump's criminal activity is supposed to increase support for him. People like to bring up 1998 but the thing is that in that case it worked to Bill Clinton's advantage because America knew the facts and didn't think he had done anything to warrant impeachment. Something tells me that America wouldn't feel quite the same about Trump telling his lawyer to fabricate evidence in order to lie to the FBI.

Also, in case no one has noticed Trump constantly claims exoneration regardless of impeachment.

Something about the juice being worth the squeeze....

We aren't dealing with a normal president or a normal voting base any more. The guy has the biggest podium in the world to scream from and there's still a lot of ears that are listening. For as much as I bash on the guy, he certainly has a knack for playing the eternal victim and using that to his advantage.

As fski points out, Trump will do that anyway. When repetitive lies go unchallenged, they become the truth for all too many people.
 

balloonshark

Diamond Member
Jun 5, 2008
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I voted in Nov. for the first time in a long time. I did it because I wanted to see him impeached. At this point though with the Senate enabling his every move I think it's best to let the other investigations continue to bring out more bad news for him and congress can continue to drag Trump and criminal gang through the mud until the election.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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I'm in favor of whatever gets subpoenas answered and people put on the stand to testify before Congress the fastest.

Notice the reaction to Mueller yesterday who did nothing more then recite what is in the report. Live testimony will have the greatest impact. That's why Trump is afraid of testifying on TV. Remember how Trump reacted after Christine Blasey Ford testified? His initial reaction was "she sounds credible". Soon afterwards normal Trump took over.
 
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soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
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As fski points out, Trump will do that anyway. When repetitive lies go unchallenged, they become the truth for all too many people.
When has Trump been challenged by a news person one on one that most of the public has observed? Trump knows how to control the narrative and how to bullshit the public, it's the one thing he does know well.