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"The war is going poorly"

XMan

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
12,508
46
91
The media keeps harping on this point, over and over again. Frankly, it's starting to annoy me.

5,000 Allied servicemen died in the first 12 hours of the Normany invasion. At that point they held less than a square mile of French soil.

In seven days of the Iraqi war, we've had less than a hundred casualties - and we control better than half of the country.

By any logical standard it's a massive success.
 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
20,020
14
81
I tuned in to CNN for a few minutes, only to see this dour puss on Judy Woodruff. She mumbled something at the end of one report about their viewers having grave concerns about the war... Give Me A Break!
 

Tab

Lifer
Sep 15, 2002
12,145
0
71
Hahahaha! The majority of those who call are those who watch CNN 24/7
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,531
3
0
If this were France we were invading then I'd say the war was going poorly.
 

Michael

Elite member
Nov 19, 1999
5,281
0
76
I'm glad that they're consolidating and pounding the Republican Guard from the air. That's how we broke them in 1991 and that's how we broke the Taliban as well.

Michael
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,872
4,213
126
I am glad we do not have 5000 casualties, and by military standards, this is not a massive success or failure. We control sand. The Iraqis never intended to fight in any way than other than what we see. Franks knew that too. We are progressing, but hold off puffing out the chest for now. The fight is and always was for Baghdad, and a few other strategic areas if possible, but always Baghdad.
 

Kadarin

Lifer
Nov 23, 2001
44,302
8
81
Originally posted by: Hayabusarider
I am glad we do not have 5000 casualties, and by military standards, this is not a massive success or failure. We control sand. The Iraqis never intended to fight in any way than other than what we see. Franks knew that too. We are progressing, but hold off puffing out the chest for now. The fight is and always was for Baghdad, and a few other strategic areas if possible, but always Baghdad.
True. Aside from what the Brits and the US Marines have seen so far, we have yet to see the real brunt of the conflict.
 

Morph

Banned
Oct 14, 1999
747
0
0
The problem is that the US government and media (the propaganda machine, as I like to call them collectively) gave everyone the impression that the entire population of Iraq hates Saddam Hussein, and that when we rolled in there everyone would just throw their weapons down and start dancing in the streets with joy, hailing us as their saviors. Now people see this is not the case and they start wondering, do these people even want us there? Do they even want our help? Makes you think back to a certain war in the far east in the 60's and 70's.
 

glugglug

Diamond Member
Jun 9, 2002
5,340
1
0
18 US military killed by Iraqis.
19 killed by friendly fire/accidents/sabotage/stupidity

So we killed more of us than the Iraqis did. That means we're winning right?
 

jjones

Lifer
Oct 9, 2001
15,425
1
0
Originally posted by: Morph
The problem is that the US government and media (the propaganda machine, as I like to call them collectively) gave everyone the impression that the entire population of Iraq hates Saddam Hussein, and that when we rolled in there everyone would just throw their weapons down and start dancing in the streets with joy, hailing us as their saviors. Now people see this is not the case and they start wondering, do these people even want us there? Do they even want our help? Makes you think back to a certain war in the far east in the 60's and 70's.
And other people don't put much stock in the nonsense that gets spewed by the media and have some capability to read between the lines. Now these people are wondering what the fuss is all about and why some fools felt that Iraq would crumble in the time it takes to bake a bundt cake.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
It is obvious to any armchair general that Iraq has tricked us into taking 4 airfields and 1/2 their country in a week. Damn those bastards.
 

Superself

Senior member
Jun 7, 2001
688
0
76
It isn't that the war is going poorly....it was planned poorly and relied too much on intel. Bad intel can get people killed.

American morals are also intefering with combat decisions.

Iraq doesn't really care about the airfields or anything outside of Baghdad. Baghdad is the prize.

Airstrikes won't win this war....it has to be a grunt fight on the ground house to house block by block bloody fist fight.


 

koryo

Member
Aug 31, 2001
198
0
0
Perception is everything, and there we aren't doing that well, although that could all change in a couple of days. This could still turn into one of those things like Masada or the Alamo, where the winner turns out to be the loser.

We all thought the Iraqis were going to throw flowers at us and just give up. That may happen once things settle down, but it hasn't yet. If we are greeted as liberators everything else will be forgotten, if we aren't we will be considered invaders. In a weird way the whole success or failure of this war lies in the hands of everyday Iraqi people.

Anybody remember why the Serbs were so hot on Kosovo? It was because of some battle there in like 1300 where they LOST to the Turks. It was like their national shrine or something.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: koryo
Perception is everything, and there we aren't doing that well, although that could all change in a couple of days. This could still turn into one of those things like Masada or the Alamo, where the winner turns out to be the loser.

We all thought the Iraqis were going to throw flowers at us and just give up. That may happen once things settle down, but it hasn't yet. If we are greeted as liberators everything else will be forgotten, if we aren't we will be considered invaders. In a weird way the whole success or failure of this war lies in the hands of everyday Iraqi people.

Anybody remember why the Serbs were so hot on Kosovo? It was because of some battle there in like 1300 where they LOST to the Turks. It was like their national shrine or something.
Many are greeting us as liberators, it is just for not most part not being shown in the media.
 

bjc112

Lifer
Dec 23, 2000
11,460
0
76
Originally posted by: Ornery
I tuned in to CNN for a few minutes, only to see this dour puss on Judy Woodruff. She mumbled something at the end of one report about their viewers having grave concerns about the war... Give Me A Break!
Coming from the great station in CNN .. .

 

koryo

Member
Aug 31, 2001
198
0
0
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: koryo
Perception is everything, and there we aren't doing that well, although that could all change in a couple of days. This could still turn into one of those things like Masada or the Alamo, where the winner turns out to be the loser.

We all thought the Iraqis were going to throw flowers at us and just give up. That may happen once things settle down, but it hasn't yet. If we are greeted as liberators everything else will be forgotten, if we aren't we will be considered invaders. In a weird way the whole success or failure of this war lies in the hands of everyday Iraqi people.

Anybody remember why the Serbs were so hot on Kosovo? It was because of some battle there in like 1300 where they LOST to the Turks. It was like their national shrine or something.
Many are greeting us as liberators, it is just for not most part not being shown in the media.
Maybe, we'll see. But the hard part comes after Saddam is gone. Nobody seems to get that.

 

Stark

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2000
7,735
0
0
Intel sucks... AMD all the way!! :p

Honestly,

I haven't seen much USA bashing from the media when I've been watching. I think some reporters have gotten over the initial rush of combat and now realize the position they're in on the front lines of a war. It takes a while to get used to being that close to death (not that I'd know).

Some in the mainstream media are extremely liberal and that might come through, but for the most part I've been impressed with what I've seen on the major networks.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: koryo
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: koryo
Perception is everything, and there we aren't doing that well, although that could all change in a couple of days. This could still turn into one of those things like Masada or the Alamo, where the winner turns out to be the loser.

We all thought the Iraqis were going to throw flowers at us and just give up. That may happen once things settle down, but it hasn't yet. If we are greeted as liberators everything else will be forgotten, if we aren't we will be considered invaders. In a weird way the whole success or failure of this war lies in the hands of everyday Iraqi people.

Anybody remember why the Serbs were so hot on Kosovo? It was because of some battle there in like 1300 where they LOST to the Turks. It was like their national shrine or something.
Many are greeting us as liberators, it is just for not most part not being shown in the media.
Maybe, we'll see. But the hard part comes after Saddam is gone. Nobody seems to get that.
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I am not saying this is going to be easy or that everything is perfect. It just seems things are going better than most of the media would want you to beleive.
 

koryo

Member
Aug 31, 2001
198
0
0
I am not saying this is going to be easy or that everything is perfect. It just seems things are going better than most of the media would want you to beleive.
I don't believe anybody anymore. Even when it's over it's hard to tell what happened.

Are there any examples of a country overthrowing a country's government (evil or not) and installing a successful democracy? I can't think of any, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. Panama, maybe, but I don't know much about them.

The only countries I can think of that made a successful transition to democracy had it come from within (the Phillippines, Eastern Europe, South Africa).

I'm almost 100% sure Iraq will end up with some sort of pacified Iraqi general in charge. I think Bush has an overly simplistic view of non-Americans, and that makes me nervous.

 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: koryo
I am not saying this is going to be easy or that everything is perfect. It just seems things are going better than most of the media would want you to beleive.
I don't believe anybody anymore. Even when it's over it's hard to tell what happened.

Are there any examples of a country overthrowing a country's government (evil or not) and installing a successful democracy? I can't think of any, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. Panama, maybe, but I don't know much about them.

The only countries I can think of that made a successful transition to democracy had it come from within (the Phillippines, Eastern Europe, South Africa).

I'm almost 100% sure Iraq will end up with some sort of pacified Iraqi general in charge. I think Bush has an overly simplistic view of non-Americans, and that makes me nervous.
Germany and Japan are a couple of good examples....
 

koryo

Member
Aug 31, 2001
198
0
0
Germany and Japan are a couple of good examples....
Japan maybe, I don't know if I would count Germany, since it was already a democracy of sorts when Hitler took over. Those were also after wars that those countries started, although I don't know if that is really relevant. Maybe it's because Iraq has zero (as far as I know) democratic tradition, and was a colony for a large part of it's history, that I have major doubts about democracy magically blooming there. People who have been ruled (usually badly) by other countries have a different view of foreign "liberators" than those that haven't, and I wouldn't be shocked if that were true of the Iraqis.
 

Doboji

Diamond Member
May 18, 2001
7,912
0
76
My feeling is this.... we have to lose at least 100 tanks, 10,000 Men, and kill off 20,000 civillians before I consider the war going poorly, anything less than that and I'm still feeling very very positive about it. I mean did anyone really think we'd win in a week?.... It's hard to shoot 60,000 people in a week if they're standing still, much less running around with AKs and hiding in Bunkers.

Reality check if we don't go to war... and we dont deal with the terror issues of the middle east.... then we're likely to lose 10,000 or more civillians in terror attacks in the next decade, if we don't free the iraqi's how many will die of starvation in the next 2 months alone? Still think the costs of war are high?

-Max
 

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