The US, the CIA, and democracy

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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We like to think of the US as the 'world leader for championing democracy'. A nation with the American ideals, and the power, and the honesty, to help challenge tyranny.

And yet, the US, it is clear, has at times been on the opposite side - a world leader backing tyrants, for our selfish interests - and many times, literally murdering those fighting for democracy and otherwise repressing such movements. For just one example, the very tyranny the Egyptian public is rising against of Mubarak has had strong US backing to keep him in power as the world's #2 recipient of US aid. As we praise the 'people of Egypt', we're a major source of the repression they're revolting against.

We say, 'we can't tell the Egyptian people who they should choose as their leader'. That's not democracy; if another nation tried to tell us who to make our leader, we'd be furious.

But take just a couple of examples of history - in Nicaragua, when we organized and sponsored a terrorist army to force the people to change the government to end the terrorism; or in Chile, when we paid over half the campaign costs for the opponent to Salvadore Allende, and spend millions to demonize Allende falsely as a 'Soviet stooge'.

And this wasn't especially noble - time after time after time the reason for for some base US corporate or financial interest. With Allende, it was driven by his left-wing orientation to reduce the exploitation of the country, such as a US corporation taking its #1 export, copper, in a monopoly for far less than it was worth; when we demolished democracy in Iran to install a tyrannical Shah for decades, it was in response to a reqeust by the British when their exploitative oil agreement was ended.

These are the opposite of the democracy-championing ideal.

When did a lot of this change? Before the CIA was created, the US could almost be said to be amateur on issues of global politics and intelligence gathering. Our information did poorly at identifying the threat of Pearl Harbor, and that caused great concern at the beginning of the Cold War, under Truman.

Under FDR, there had started to be some increases with the OSS; Truman created the CIA.

The CIA had some very specific purposes in its charter. None of them called for it to be a major operations agency; they all called for it to collect information. The fifth clause had a loophole for some minor operation - and five years after its creation in 1947 or 1948, the new President Eisenhower started to use it differently with that first operation, the overthrow of Democracy in Iran in 1953. It was used again, with false pretenses, to overthrow the government in Guatemala the next year.

This was the start of the CIA's new mission as 'operational organization that could bring about political pressure, revolt, assassination, change elections, etc.'

At the direction of the President, loyal only to him, with virtually no accountability to Congress - a very 'un-American' operation, in terms of ours and others' democracy.

President Harry Truman, who had created the agency, came to conclude that the agency - which knowledgable people had come to describe as 'a covert operations organization with a mask of collecting information', as over half the budget had gone to its Directorate of Operations side - had become dangerous and the operational side need to be shut down, going back to its charter's function of information.

Writing a month to the day after JFK, who had planned a complete overhaul of US intelligence operations - the details of which are not known, but expected to be consistent with his quote that he'd 'like to cut the CIA into a thousand pieces and scatter them into the wind' - Truman an article in the Washington Post:

The Washington Post
December 22, 1963 - page A11

Limit CIA Role To Intelligence

By Harry S Truman
Copyright, 1963, by Harry S Truman

INDEPENDENCE, MO., Dec. 21 — I think it has become necessary to take another look at the purpose and operations of our Central Intelligence Agency—CIA. At least, I would like to submit here the original reason why I thought it necessary to organize this Agency during my Administration, what I expected it to do and how it was to operate as an arm of the President.

I think it is fairly obvious that by and large a President's performance in office is as effective as the information he has and the information he gets. That is to say, that assuming the President himself possesses a knowledge of our history, a sensitive understanding of our institutions, and an insight into the needs and aspirations of the people, he needs to have available to him the most accurate and up-to-the-minute information on what is going on everywhere in the world, and particularly of the trends and developments in all the danger spots in the contest between East and West. This is an immense task and requires a special kind of an intelligence facility.

Of course, every President has available to him all the information gathered by the many intelligence agencies already in existence. The Departments of State, Defense, Commerce, Interior and others are constantly engaged in extensive information gathering and have done excellent work.

But their collective information reached the President all too frequently in conflicting conclusions. At times, the intelligence reports tended to be slanted to conform to established positions of a given department. This becomes confusing and what's worse, such intelligence is of little use to a President in reaching the right decisions.

Therefore, I decided to set up a special organization charged with the collection of all intelligence reports from every available source, and to have those reports reach me as President without department "treatment" or interpretations.

I wanted and needed the information in its "natural raw" state and in as comprehensive a volume as it was practical for me to make full use of it. But the most important thing about this move was to guard against the chance of intelligence being used to influence or to lead the President into unwise decisions—and I thought it was necessary that the President do his own thinking and evaluating.

Since the responsibility for decision making was his—then he had to be sure that no information is kept from him for whatever reason at the discretion of any one department or agency, or that unpleasant facts be kept from him. There are always those who would want to shield a President from bad news or misjudgments to spare him from being "upset."

For some time I have been disturbed by the way CIA has been diverted from its original assignment. It has become an operational and at times a policy-making arm of the Government. This has led to trouble and may have compounded our difficulties in several explosive areas.

I never had any thought that when I set up the CIA that it would be injected into peacetime cloak and dagger operations. Some of the complications and embarrassment I think we have experienced are in part attributable to the fact that this quiet intelligence arm of the President has been so removed from its intended role that it is being interpreted as a symbol of sinister and mysterious foreign intrigue—and a subject for cold war enemy propaganda.

With all the nonsense put out by Communist propaganda about "Yankee imperialism," "exploitive capitalism," "war-mongering," "monopolists," in their name-calling assault on the West, the last thing we needed was for the CIA to be seized upon as something akin to a subverting influence in the affairs of other people.

I well knew the first temporary director of the CIA, Adm. Souers, and the later permanent directors of the CIA, Gen. Hoyt Vandenberg and Allen Dulles. These were men of the highest character, patriotism and integrity—and I assume this is true of all those who continue in charge.

But there are now some searching questions that need to be answered. I, therefore, would like to see the CIA be restored to its original assignment as the intelligence arm of the President, and that whatever else it can properly perform in that special field—and that its operational duties be terminated or properly used elsewhere.

We have grown up as a nation, respected for our free institutions and for our ability to maintain a free and open society. There is something about the way the CIA has been functioning that is casting a shadow over our historic position and I feel that we need to correct it.

After this era, we had Nixon, and CIA directors like Bush - in an era which finally had democracy somewhat confront the CIA's out of control activities, with the Church Commission. This led to outrage and some legislative reforms - that proved largely ineffective, followed briefly under Carter, before Reagan, CIA Director Casey, and all kinds of CIA excesses again such as the Iran-Contra crimes.

We should return to Harry Truman's warning, and dismantle most covert operations, that have violated American values and human rights around the world so much.

We should actually be on the side of the Egyptians and other people of the world, not praising them with words and killing them with our arms as we have under tyrants.

Save234
 
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drebo

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2006
7,034
1
81
How're that Obama and those Dems doing getting the Patriot Act repealed?
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
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Way to stay on topic!

Don't worry my friend, the tunnel gets wider towards the exit.

The relevance is obvious. We've no political party opposed to the abuse of power government agencies and their largess provide.

Craig234, what better reason to cut taxes and cut spending, to starve the beast? You think there is any other way?
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
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Obama/Democrats = the Mini Me version of Bush.

There is much truth to this. Although many people love to pontificate over lofty ideals through partisan lenses, the fact of the matter is world politics/systems preclude a certain type of behavior between nations that mostly trumps ideology. The US is the best example of this... we have always wrapped our actions and words in moralist, liberalist theory yet we operate in a coldly realist paradigm of security and balance-of-power competition. All major powers since the growth of nation states in the 1600s do. Globalization and other related changes are probably slowly changing this, but don't fool yourself, we're a long way off. This is not so much a Rep/Dem issue as many would have you believe.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
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http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/tic/Documents/mfh.txt

Look, we've been borrowing money from Egypt. If we let just whoever govern Egypt, they may stop lending us money. Then, Craig, how are we supposed to pay for Medicare, Social Security, and unemployment? If we let nations like Egypt and Saudi Arabia be governed by people who don't like us and who won't loan us money because they have their own problems, and if it's not politically popular to raise taxes, then well, Craig, where is the money going to come from to pay for your favorite programs?
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
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I wish people wouldn't post tinfoily stuff about the CIA, the CIA's main interests has always been to make sure that our economic interests around the world were kept in US control, usually at the expense of democracy/wealth of the countries we exploit. See Chile (as mentioned already), united fruit, the middle east, etc. etc.

These are verifiable truths.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
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We like others to think of the US as the 'world leader for championing democracy'. The truth is, and it's not very well concealed, that we are the 'world leader for championing US interests.'

I could give fuck all if Egyptians are happy with their government.
 

brencat

Platinum Member
Feb 26, 2007
2,170
3
76
We like others to think of the US as the 'world leader for championing democracy'. The truth is, and it's not very well concealed, that we are the 'world leader for championing US interests.'

I could give a fuck all if Egyptians are happy with their government.

+1

Agreed. We catch a lot of grief as a nation for looking out for our economic and strategic interests. Meanwhile Russia and China and every other major nation out there does the same damn thing. However, it seems like the Left likes to focus on the manufactured 'hypocrisy' of our position in championing democracy while looking to hoover up as much of the planet's resources as possible. The old 'ugly American' shame... 4% of the world's population using 25% of its resources.

Good! Hope to make it 50% in my lifetime!! How do you like that? :thumbsup:
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
81
We like others to think of the US as the 'world leader for championing democracy'. The truth is, and it's not very well concealed, that we are the 'world leader for championing US interests.'

I could give fuck all if Egyptians are happy with their government.

If our resources are used to keep an unpopular dictator in power, and a result of this is a violent act of revenge on Americans, then you'll begin to care. We cannot act unfairly and unjustly overseas and think there are no consequences.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
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If our resources are used to keep an unpopular dictator in power, and a result of this is a violent act of revenge on Americans, then you'll begin to care. We cannot act unfairly and unjustly overseas and think there are no consequences.

America's violent acts of revenge typically leave us with the last laugh. In other words, bring it.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
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Yeah, Iraq and Afghanistan have gone so well. :rolleyes:

I think Iraq has turned out as good or better than anyone could have hoped. It took a little longer than expected, but it's done now.

Afghanistan is still a work in progress, but you can't argue that we didn't bring some terribly violent revenge on the government and the civilian populace of the country. I've spoken with villagers who had their homes destroyed by air strikes who couldn't tell you what "9/11" is. They've never even heard of New York City for that matter. That's some fucking violent revenge there. You're loosely associated (by birth) with someone that played a small part in attacking our country? Fuck you!
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
81
I think Iraq has turned out as good or better than anyone could have hoped. It took a little longer than expected, but it's done now.

It's ended up being quite a bit more expensive, in more ways than one. And no, it's not done, and we all wonder if it ever will be. At this point in the game, you'd have to be a real special kind of person to see that Iraq has been something even resembling a success.

Afghanistan is still a work in progress, but you can't argue that we didn't bring some terribly violent revenge on the government and the civilian populace of the country. I've spoken with villagers who had their homes destroyed by air strikes who couldn't tell you what "9/11" is. They've never even heard of New York City for that matter. That's some fucking violent revenge there. You're loosely associated (by birth) with someone that played a small part in attacking our country? Fuck you!

o_O

Are you trying to make my point for me? This is success to you?
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
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It's ended up being quite a bit more expensive, in more ways than one. And no, it's not done, and we all wonder if it ever will be. At this point in the game, you'd have to be a real special kind of person to see that Iraq has been something even resembling a success.



o_O

Are you trying to make my point for me? This is success to you?

Yes, Iraq was expensive and lengthy, but it's settled down now. Things are going to be ok. I think you'd have to be a pessimist to say that Iraq isn't a success compared to 5 years ago. The Washington Post has photographs of a joint patrol of Kurdish & Iraqi police forces on it's front page. :thumbsup:

Blind, indiscriminate, overwhelming violence makes for some pretty good "violent revenge" as you put it earlier. My point being if the oppressed Egyptians feel we're at fault, and want to take a shot at us, we'll have no qualms about bombing them back to 3rd world status. EDIT: And seizing control of the Suez canal, and not paying them squat for the usage.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,849
10,163
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America's violent acts of revenge typically leave us with the last laugh. In other words, bring it.

Thousands of our soldiers dead, tens of thousands injured, over a trillion dollars. You enjoy that?
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
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Thousands of our soldiers dead, tens of thousands injured, over a trillion dollars. You enjoy that?

The world learned what happens when you rattle the big dog's cage. There were costs, certainly, but (our) freedom and the lifestyle that you enjoy isn't free.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Thousands of our soldiers dead, tens of thousands injured, over a trillion dollars. You enjoy that?

He sounds like Bin Laden himself got the giant coat hanger wifi antenna going again out the side of some cave to post here. This is exactly what our enemies wanted to do to us by striking a few high profile targets with some bubblegum and a few boxcutters.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Democracy means two wolves and a lamb deciding what's for dinner or in the Middle east two Muslims chopping off a queers head. Democracy means little without liberty and individual rights which are equally important and you forgot to mention. Mubarak and those like him including Saddam which we foolishly overthrew is lessor of two evils, while not having democracy they do protect the rights of the minority. Hence tepid support.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
When you rattle the big dog's cage.


And don't forget it punk!
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