The US built successful democracies in Germany and Japan.

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
We've all seen countless posts here saying how the US built successful democracies in Japan and Germany after WWII. Such posts are made to imply that the same thing will happen in Iraq.

But consider for a moment the history of these countries.

Germany was a secular democratic republic (aka Weimar republic) in the years 1918-1933. Most hallmarks of today's german constitution/society - welfare state, federal system, proportional multiparty democracy, industry-wide collective bargaining/union involvement in companies, modernism and liberal values - were first put into place during this period. While it was unsuccessful, Weimar failed primarily because of the world economic collapse. Had the post WWI period been acompanied by the same economic boom as the post WWII period, WWII would have never occured.

Japan also had a similar period:
Domestically, the Taish period (1912?26) is usually considered an era of opening to liberal and Western trends in many areas of society and the arts, the so-called Taish democracy. This is usually to distinguish it from the political authoritarianism of the preceding Meiji era and from the militarism and the crackdown on domestic liberalism of the subsequent Shwa era. Western influence was felt in the visual and literary arts, both in theme and technique.
http://www.bartleby.com/67/2494.html
It was not as significant as Weimar, but it must still be considered.

Now lets compare to Iraq:
Iraq did have one such period, the first republic of 1958-1963 whose constitution had liberal values, but it was too long ago. If we suppose you had to be 19 to understand political events and the significance of freedom, it means only Iraqis who are over 65 can remember this period. Looking at this population pyramid we can see that these Iraqis account for less than 2% of the population. The vast majority have never known freedom or democracy.

So what's the point of this post?

I want to point out that the US did not build/create democracies in post WWII Japan and Germany, but rather helped moderates in those countries restore what was destroyed not long ago.Whether Iraq will turn out to be a democracy, a theocracy or something in between, remains to be seen. But Iraq is neither post WWII Germany, nor Japan and comparisons between the two are of little use.
 

Jadow

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2003
5,962
2
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gotta admit, the Japanese went from savage cunning warriors to wierd ass techno perverted chimpokoman anime loving wierdos though.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
We've all seen countless posts here saying how the US built successful democracies in Japan and Germany after WWII. Such posts are made to imply that the same thing will happen in Iraq.

But consider for a moment the history of these countries.

Germany was a secular democratic republic (aka Weimar republic) in the years 1918-1933. Most hallmarks of today's german constitution/society - welfare state, federal system, proportional multiparty democracy, industry-wide collective bargaining/union involvement in companies, modernism and liberal values - were first put into place during this period. While it was unsuccessful, Weimar failed primarily because of the world economic collapse. Had the post WWI period been acompanied by the same economic boom as the post WWII period, WWII would have never occured.

Japan also had a similar period:
Domestically, the Taish period (1912?26) is usually considered an era of opening to liberal and Western trends in many areas of society and the arts, the so-called Taish democracy. This is usually to distinguish it from the political authoritarianism of the preceding Meiji era and from the militarism and the crackdown on domestic liberalism of the subsequent Shwa era. Western influence was felt in the visual and literary arts, both in theme and technique.
http://www.bartleby.com/67/2494.html
It was not as significant as Weimar, but it must still be considered.

Now lets compare to Iraq:
Iraq did have one such period, the first republic of 1958-1963 whose constitution had liberal values, but it was too long ago. If we suppose you had to be 19 to understand political events and the significance of freedom, it means only Iraqis who are over 65 can remember this period. Looking at this population pyramid we can see that these Iraqis account for less than 2% of the population. The vast majority have never known freedom or democracy.

So what's the point of this post?

I want to point out that the US did not build/create democracies in post WWII Japan and Germany, but rather helped moderates in those countries restore what was destroyed not long ago.Whether Iraq will turn out to be a democracy, a theocracy or something in between, remains to be seen. But Iraq is neither post WWII Germany, nor Japan and comparisons between the two are of little use.

Lets also point out, that there was great question after WWII if germany capable of being democratic. Also remember that it was 6-10 years before we fully handed the goverments back over to the people.

If the US has the resolve, Iraq will be far better place in a few short years.
 

MonstaThrilla

Golden Member
Sep 16, 2000
1,652
0
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Also note that the governments of Germany and Japan launched wars of aggression on their neighbors, in hopes of controlling their region. Both countries were slowly but surely beaten to pulp, had millions of its people killed, and forced to capitulate. Only then were the people receptive to democracy.

Following this logic, the most opportune time to establish democracy in Iraq was 1991.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: MonstaThrilla
Also note that the governments of Germany and Japan launched wars of aggression on their neighbors, in hopes of controlling their region. Both countries were slowly but surely beaten to pulp, had millions of its people killed, and forced to capitulate. Only then were the people receptive to democracy.

Following this logic, the most opportune time to establish democracy in Iraq was 1991.

Yes, this job should have been done then. Shame the UN did not want that to happen then either.
 

arsbanned

Banned
Dec 12, 2003
4,853
0
0
Another major difference is that the war that put us in a position to Nation build was just and necessary.
Was the level of bombings and attacks after the war in any of the reformed countries any where near what it is in Iraq today?
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Japan aint no democracy. I challage you to name any party other than the Liberal Democratic Party and show me two people running for the same seat.
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Czar
I think the major difference was the marshall(sp?) program

Marshall plan was for europe. Japan was run differently.

ah ok, how was Japan run differently from europe?