The upcoming Saddam trial.. Should it be completely open?

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,265
126
Our current administration has a strange penchant for "security"

However, Saddam is going on trial. He could implicate others in his actions, France, Germany, Russia. We all know how they are loved here.

I think the trial NEEDS to be open, and the chips fall where they may, but I wonder if we will.

So we get to hear all about this, right? Or do we?
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,489
0
0
What's he gonna implicate France, Germany, and Russia that we don't already know about? Same thing goes for the US?

But I doubt anything he says will make sense to anyone, he'll ramble on and on, the man is incoherent, even when you read the transcripts.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Our current administration has a strange penchant for "security"

However, Saddam is going on trial. He could implicate others in his actions, France, Germany, Russia. We all know how they are loved here.

I think the trial NEEDS to be open, and the chips fall where they may, but I wonder if we will.

So we get to hear all about this, right? Or do we?


Open yes, open to the general public no. Security is going to be a huge issue. Invite a dozen members from the press and hold the trial at gitmo.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,265
126
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Our current administration has a strange penchant for "security"

However, Saddam is going on trial. He could implicate others in his actions, France, Germany, Russia. We all know how they are loved here.

I think the trial NEEDS to be open, and the chips fall where they may, but I wonder if we will.

So we get to hear all about this, right? Or do we?


Open yes, open to the general public no. Security is going to be a huge issue. Invite a dozen members from the press and hold the trial at gitmo.


I would want to see heavy security, and limited physical access. Complete and uncensored coverage though. I am not sure the best venue for the trial, however if a broad sector of the press was given unfettered reporting privelages, I would find your idea acceptable.
 

MovingTarget

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2003
8,999
109
106
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Our current administration has a strange penchant for "security"

However, Saddam is going on trial. He could implicate others in his actions, France, Germany, Russia. We all know how they are loved here.

I think the trial NEEDS to be open, and the chips fall where they may, but I wonder if we will.

So we get to hear all about this, right? Or do we?


Open yes, open to the general public no. Security is going to be a huge issue. Invite a dozen members from the press and hold the trial at gitmo.


I would want to see heavy security, and limited physical access. Complete and uncensored coverage though. I am not sure the best venue for the trial, however if a broad sector of the press was given unfettered reporting privelages, I would find your idea acceptable.

I agree, Iraqis would want no less than a public trial for Saddam after what he has done over the years. Although it would be a disaster if anyone and everyone would be able to walk into the trial or courthouse itself, having sufficient press cover it would more than suffice. I think the court should be Iraqi, even if it is held at gitmo for security reasons because of what I stated in previous threads. Sorry to go off on a tangent there, but anyway, publicity is a must.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
Trial will be held in Iraq.

Anything else will be treated as flawed and controlled by the US.

The Iraqs will need to ensure the fairness of the trial - especially before the Arab/Muslim world.

The outcome may not be in doubt, however, evidence will be presented that has been culled from many sources.
 

NesuD

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,999
106
106
His most heinous crimes were against the Iraqi people therefore he must be tried by Iraqis in Iraq. The conditions of the trial concerning public access to the proceedings must ultimately be up to the the Iraqis. I am sure with 100k troops in country we would be able to provide all the necessary security required. Everyone seems to assume the US will be trying him but I really doubt that will happen. We may provide a lot of support to the prosecution but i seriously doubt we will be the prosecutors and we we shouldn't be anyway.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
I think there might be two issues here; 1) the crimes Saddam commited against the Iraqi's, and, 2) the crimes other countries may have commited against international law by selling banned materials to Saddam.

I don't know that the Iraqis have standing to prosecute the latter.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
During trial, Hussein may try to implicate Western leaders
U.S. and other nations that supported him in past could be vulnerable

By Mark Matthews
Sun National Staff
Originally published December 17, 2003



WASHINGTON - The trials of Saddam Hussein and other Iraqi leaders could produce embarrassing reminders of past American support for his government and of the West's failure to punish him despite mounting evidence of Iraqi atrocities.

Lawyers familiar with war crimes trials say attorneys for Hussein and his aides might try to introduce damaging evidence against Western leaders as a pressure tactic against their accusers or to shift responsibility away from the dictator's actions.

The tactic is unlikely to work in his favor, they said, because Hussein's defense team would have a hard time persuading a tribunal that such evidence is relevant in judging whether he was responsible for war crimes, genocide or human rights abuses, the charges likely to be leveled against him.

Nevertheless, the prospect that he will try to implicate other nations presents a powerful reason for the United States not to appear to be orchestrating the trial, said Diane Orentlicher, an international justice specialist at American University's Washington College of Law.

"It underscores the importance that this not be seen as an American stage-managed process," Orentlicher said. "It's in the interests of both Iraqis and the United States to invite international participation."

The public record is replete with instances of high-ranking American policy-makers adopting a soft line toward Hussein, viewing him as the lesser of evils they were confronting at the time.

The United States provided battlefield intelligence to Iraq during Hussein's war against Iran during the 1980s, joining with Arab states in seeking to curb the spread of Iran's brand of Islamic fundamentalism and its perceived ambition to dominate the oil-rich Persian Gulf region.

In 1988, Reagan administration officials found persuasive evidence that Hussein had used poison gas against Kurds in the village of Halabja, in northern Iraq, and joined with allies in seeking a United Nations inspection. Hussein refused to allow inspectors in. That same year, the United Nations found that Iraq had used poison gas in the final throes of its war against Iran.

But the Reagan administration resisted an effort by some in Congress, led by Sen. Claiborne Pell, a Rhode Island Democrat, to impose sanctions on Iraq, preferring to use diplomacy in a bid to halt Hussein's use of chemical weapons.

The Reagan administration and its successor under President George Bush granted billions of dollars in credits to Iraq, enabling it to buy U.S. agricultural products, while Hussein simultaneously expanded his weapons arsenal and tried to develop nuclear weapons.

A 1990 Human Rights Watch report quoted a senior State Department official as describing the Iraqi government as "possibly the worst violator of human rights anywhere in the world today."

And as Hussein made threatening moves against Kuwait in 1990, Bush's ambassador to Baghdad, April Glaspie, failed to warn him that he would face serious punishment if he invaded his neighbor, which Iraq soon did. After the Persian Gulf war in 1991, the United States stood by as Hussein brutally crushed uprisings by Kurds and Shiite Muslims.

Other countries might not be exempt from possible Hussein efforts to spread blame. France helped Iraq build a nuclear facility that was bombed by Israel in 1981, and Russia sold Iraq weapons that were paid for with help from Saudi Arabia and other wealthy Persian Gulf states. Nations might also be exposed as having allowed illicit weapons to slip through their customs controls to Iraq.

Hussein could try to dredge up some of this history during his trial, in an argument that the West was somehow complicit in his actions.

Whether tribunal judges would allow such information into evidence will depend on how narrowly they define what is relevant to the charges.

Salem Chalabi, a Baghdad-based legal adviser to the Iraqi Governing Council, said he and others involved in preparing rules for the tribunals want to keep the trials narrowly focused "on the crimes in question."

Former CIA Director R. James Woolsey, a practiced litigator, said such a tactic by Hussein would be "a real reach for relevancy" and doubted that it would seriously embarrass the U.S. government.

"Was it inconsistent to have worked with Stalin during World War II and then to oppose him during the Cold War? So what? That's statecraft," he said.

But legal strategy might not be Hussein's intent, said Ruth Wedgwood, a professor of international law at the Johns Hopkins University. "It can't help him legally. It can only help his design concept for his historical role, provide exculpatory fiction for the Baathists or play on the theme of betrayal," she said.

Orentlicher said the Bush administration, aware that such a tactic might be in store, "ought to be prepared to say, 'We made mistakes in the past, but this is legally irrelevant.'"

The Bush administration took a step toward such an admission in September, when Secretary of State Colin L. Powell visited Halabja and spoke to several hundred Kurdish families.

"I cannot tell you that the world should have acted sooner. You know that," Powell said. "What I can tell you is that what happened here in 1988 is never going to happen again."
http://www.sunspot.net/news/nationworld/iraq/bal-te.trial17dec17,0,3097763.story?coll=bal-home-headlines
 

rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,475
1
0
It should be completely up to the Iraqies how the trial is conducted or even if there is one.
 

kandarp

Platinum Member
May 19, 2003
2,852
0
0
Orentlicher said the Bush administration, aware that such a tactic might be in store, "ought to be prepared to say, 'We made mistakes in the past, but this is legally irrelevant.'"


i want to hear rummy saying that with the clip of him meeting SH and shaking hands with him in the mid 80s running in the background..ahhhhh the irony
 

XZeroII

Lifer
Jun 30, 2001
12,572
0
0
What is there to argue about? He should be treated like any other POW. This is as stupid as the OJ trial.
 

Fencer128

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,700
1
91
Originally posted by: XZeroII
What is there to argue about? He should be treated like any other POW. This is as stupid as the OJ trial.

So the US should try him then? Or maybe the Iraqi's since he persecuted them a lot more than the US?

Surely if it went by the book - US prisoner - US trial.

That may not be the best (isn't in my mind) way to proceed with this particular case though. Doesn't seem "stupid" to me.

Thoughts?

Andy
 

TapTap

Golden Member
Apr 8, 2001
1,043
0
0
The Iraqi governing council has in its possession 8 tons of files,tapes and transcripts of orders from Saddam involving executions, prison terms and POW treatment of Iranian soldiers. (NY Times article- - - -liberal rag so it has to be true :) )

I sure as hell would want the World, in particular that pandering idiot Kofi Annan to see what exactly was happening.
World opinion changed when the Milosevics mass graves began to be uncovered, I think the same circumstance exists here. Anti-American sentiment would die down considerably.