The Unknown War

[PJABBER]

Originally posted by: roboskier

Originally posted by: PJABBER

Originally posted by: bamacre
Are you implying that Communism could have worked, successfully, had it not been for our intervention?

if you address the question to me, I would say there are innate and fatal weaknesses in state controlled economies and political systems. These "centrally" planned and forced systems are inevitably resisted and eventually fail from both internal and external factors.

It is hard to think of any totalitarian economic and political system that lasted all that long, not that democratic capitalism has such a long history itself. Of course, you can have a succession of despots, but it is usually a self-defeating progression that implodes or is driven into failure. And you can have democracies which are weakened by self doubt destroyed by totalitarianism's siren call.

The economic and political democratic capitalist system is likely the closest that anyone has come up with to satisfy the economic and aspirational needs of humanity. It is fragile in that the opportunities and freedoms it offers must be won again and again.

The nations which have chosen this path have a responsibility to more than their own citizens. They have an obligation to cry out against all of the alternatives which can only offer more oppression. Perhaps that is why so many around the world are wondering why the United States is now straying away from that which made them exceptional and inspirational.

So in other words you do think the Soviet Union would have collapsed regardless of Reagan's policy.

Please elaborate your question.

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: PJABBER
November of 1989 was the most liberating month of arguably the most liberating year in human history...

I'd say 1863 (Emancipation Proclamation) has 1989 beat by a good margin.

1944 (Germany's surrender during WWII) also has 1989 beat.

Oh, and how about 1783 (Treaty of Paris)? That was a MUCH better year for liberation.

And what about 1795 (French Constitution)? I think the French would say THAT was a better year.

The end of the cold war didn't save humanity. It didn't solve the day-to-day problems of common people. We still face the very real and growing threat of nuclear terrorism. We still fact the threat of a nuclear Iran.

But Reagan is your hero, so of course you think 1989 was wonderful.

It was 1945 and Germany's surrender still left millions stuck under Soviet rule. Most of them until the collapse of the Soviet Union.

I could be mis-remembering, but I thought Germany surrendered in May of 1944, and VE day was in 1945.

Edit: Just looked it up. You're right. Berlin surrendered in 1944, but Germany didn't surrender until 1945.

Anyway, I was thinking of the intended victims of Germany's genocide. And overall, I'm certain that the world felt a MUCH greater sense of relief when WWII ended than when the Berlin Wall fell.

lol what? What history book are you reading? How can Berlin surrender but Germany not until May 45??????

Berlin fell on May 2nd 45 and Jodl presented surrender terms to Eisenhower on May 7th 45.

I am sure the world did feel relief, except those stuck under the Iron Curtain who exchanged one brutal oppressive ideology with another.

Yeah. You're right. 1944 was stuck in my mind for some reason. Guess I need new reading glasses.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: PJABBER
November of 1989 was the most liberating month of arguably the most liberating year in human history...

I'd say 1863 (Emancipation Proclamation) has 1989 beat by a good margin.

1944 (Germany's surrender during WWII) also has 1989 beat.

Oh, and how about 1783 (Treaty of Paris)? That was a MUCH better year for liberation.

And what about 1795 (French Constitution)? I think the French would say THAT was a better year.

The end of the cold war didn't save humanity. It didn't solve the day-to-day problems of common people. We still face the very real and growing threat of nuclear terrorism. We still fact the threat of a nuclear Iran.

But Reagan is your hero, so of course you think 1989 was wonderful.

It was 1945 and Germany's surrender still left millions stuck under Soviet rule. Most of them until the collapse of the Soviet Union.

and the collapse of the soviet union still left hundred of millions under repressive rule in its successor and client states. only a few really escaped (poland, czech r., slovakia, hungary, estonia, lithuania, latvia) A large portion of the soviet block remains very shitty. Russians are still poorer now then they were at the fall of the soviet union, and probably nearly as un-free

Which former soviets sattelite states still practice soviet style communism?

communism isn't the only type of oppression out there. (cuba, NK still exist btw) Russia, belarus, and some of the 'stan's are just as terrible of places now as they were 20 years ago, at least when it comes to civil rights and quality of life.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: PJABBER
... But for the ill informed leftish posters on this site the dramatic changes in the world's landscape might not have happened at all. They revel in the joys of State control and abject pacifism, they support the demise of democracy in favor of social welfarism, they advocate submission to the will of the State while denigrating independent thought. ...

As mentioned in another thread, here's an example of the overtly partisan trolling of the boy who accuses everybody else of partisanship. He then feigns indignation when this provokes the inevitable heated responses. Making statements intended to provoke inflamed reaction is the very definition of trolling.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

communism isn't the only type of oppression out there. (cuba, NK still exist btw) Russia, belarus, and some of the 'stan's are just as terrible of places now as they were 20 years ago, at least when it comes to civil rights and quality of life.

I pretty much made it clear I was discussing eastern europe. Not NK, China, or Russia, which was under Communist rule before the fall of Nazi Germany.

But many in the former Eastern Bloc have much more political and economic freedom than they did before the fall. And letting them fall under Communism is a black mark on the end of WWII imo.

 

[IronWing]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

communism isn't the only type of oppression out there. (cuba, NK still exist btw) Russia, belarus, and some of the 'stan's are just as terrible of places now as they were 20 years ago, at least when it comes to civil rights and quality of life.

I pretty much made it clear I was discussing eastern europe. Not NK, China, or Russia, which was under Communist rule before the fall of Nazi Germany.

But many in the former Eastern Bloc have much more political and economic freedom than they did before the fall. And letting them fall under Communism is a black mark on the end of WWII imo.

The alternative wasn't looking so hot at the time.

 

[PJABBER]

Originally posted by: ironwing

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

communism isn't the only type of oppression out there. (cuba, NK still exist btw) Russia, belarus, and some of the 'stan's are just as terrible of places now as they were 20 years ago, at least when it comes to civil rights and quality of life.

I pretty much made it clear I was discussing eastern europe. Not NK, China, or Russia, which was under Communist rule before the fall of Nazi Germany.

But many in the former Eastern Bloc have much more political and economic freedom than they did before the fall. And letting them fall under Communism is a black mark on the end of WWII imo.

The alternative wasn't looking so hot at the time.

Exactly what alternative was that?

 

[Colt45]

Originally posted by: PJABBER

Originally posted by: ironwing

The alternative wasn't looking so hot at the time.

Exactly what alternative was that?

Are you just playing dumb?

 

[PJABBER]

Originally posted by: Colt45

Originally posted by: PJABBER

Originally posted by: ironwing

The alternative wasn't looking so hot at the time.

Exactly what alternative was that?

Are you just playing dumb?

Nope, just trying to figure out what ironwing is referring to.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Man are you implying somehow commies are gone . China Korea Nam . Whats the population of these 3 . I missed the victory somehow . It appears to me that China has won not us. The USSR is gone . Great. But its not over tillits over and its not over seems to me were turning to socialistic government . or commies if ya preferr. Weres the victory of 1989. I can't find it I looking is over there nope not there how about there nope not there. Were is this victory your talking about. China looks pretty powerful to me

 

[Nemesis 1]

1989 was interesting . But 9/11/91 was even more interesting .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m5koitDG30

 

[Nemesis 1]

The SR Bush was working hard followed by the clinton thuggs followed by the idiot son that nastradamius wrote about Followed by the great deciever the end of the line Obama . No way this pope will live 3 more years he the last pope befor peter of rome takes power . More than likely a black pope. Ya 1989 doesn't seem much like a big event compared to whats been going on . Don't get me wrong guys I didn't give up hope for mankind until recently whats done is done YOU made your choices even tho both were bad choices. We went by the point of no return when the deciever was choosen . now its a matter of time befor the next planned terror attack or flue out break . Just don't run . don't cling to that which cann't save ya . We all have a reason for being . I do what I do not out of hate but love. True love the kind that last for all time . Its a burden I tried to escape but alast its to late . I am sorry but I have no regrets . Its just a hard thing to do that I was born to do .

They can't hurt me right now they know it as I do . They can't, I fall they fall they know the rules.

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: PJABBER
Most mornings I like to have my espresso alongside Asahi Shimbun/International Herald Tribune, The Wall Street Journal and Financial Times. These fine publications inform me of what is important around the world and often have more than a small dollop of humor as well.

Do they drop these publications down a window well or do you actually surface from your folks basement long enough to grab them from the porch? Do you honestly think if you say shit enough it becomes true to anyone other than yourself? Now run back to the lifestyles of the rich and famous, globe trotting life you pretend to live that affords you so much time to make so many inane posts here. :roll:

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: PJABBER
... But for the ill informed leftish posters on this site the dramatic changes in the world's landscape might not have happened at all. They revel in the joys of State control and abject pacifism, they support the demise of democracy in favor of social welfarism, they advocate submission to the will of the State while denigrating independent thought. ...

As mentioned in another thread, here's an example of the overtly partisan trolling of the boy who accuses everybody else of partisanship. He then feigns indignation when this provokes the inevitable heated responses. Making statements intended to provoke inflamed reaction is the very definition of trolling.

Ding. Ding. Ding.

 

[BigDH01]

Originally posted by: PJABBER

Originally posted by: bamacre
Are you implying that Communism could have worked, successfully, had it not been for our intervention?

if you address the question to me, I would say there are innate and fatal weaknesses in state controlled economies and political systems. These "centrally" planned and forced systems are inevitably resisted and eventually fail from both internal and external factors.

It is hard to think of any totalitarian economic and political system that lasted all that long, not that democratic capitalism has such a long history itself. Of course, you can have a succession of despots, but it is usually a self-defeating progression that implodes or is driven into failure. And you can have democracies which are weakened by self doubt destroyed by totalitarianism's siren call.

The economic and political democratic capitalist system is likely the closest that anyone has come up with to satisfy the economic and aspirational needs of humanity. It is fragile in that the opportunities and freedoms it offers must be won again and again.

The nations which have chosen this path have a responsibility to more than their own citizens. They have an obligation to cry out against all of the alternatives which can only offer more oppression. Perhaps that is why so many around the world are wondering why the United States is now straying away from that which made them exceptional and inspirational.

Yeah, the Friedman market reforms have done so much for the economic aspirations of the average Russian. I mean, only 54% of Russian households with one child live in poverty. That includes 34% of households where someone has a university degree. The Gini coefficient went from .29 when the USSR collapsed to .41 in 2006. Another stellar accomplishment. Things were so bad after the collapse that in 1996 the Russians came fairly close to electing a Communist president.

Then there's this little jewel from the Washington Post.

Supporters say Putin and his circle of advisers simply cannot yet trust the Russian people to make correct political choices. "The Kremlin is absolutely not ready to give power to any of the opposition parties," said Sergei Markov, a political consultant who works with the Putin administration. "They think if Russian people had absolute freedom of elections they would vote for a combination of nationalists and Communists."

Yeah, looks like things are going swimmingly well for people in Russia who would vote for Nationalists (that's National Bolshevik Party) and Communists.

Freedom has largely been reversing for the worst in Russia. The articles about it are relatively easy to find, places like here. Friedman's shock treatments were disasterous for Russia.

But hey, why shouldn't we trust Friedman? His favorite example of Capitalism was the positive noninterventionism that exists in Hong Kong. Who could blame him? Low unemployment, no minimum wage, very low taxation, good GDP growth, consistently ranked the freest economy in the world, so good times for all, right?

Well, except a few minor issues. With economic freedom came great wealth disparity. Their Gini index in 2001 was 52.3 (and has been steadily increasing), even higher than the US in 2007. Oh yeah, and one-sixth of Hong Kong's population lives in poverty. It doesn't help that over the last 20 years that high-earners income jumped 34.7% compared to low-earners which saw their wages fall 3.3%. The free economy hasn't done much for the working poor at all. On top of this, the average work week in Hong Kong is 47 hours. So what happens when you have a large wealth disparity and force the poor, middle-class, and rich to compete for limited resources, such as housing in Hong Kong? Easy enough to predict, 48.8% of the Hong Kong population lives in public housing or subsidized housing, unable to afford a lease of their own. A real laissez-faire utopia. For their troubles, Hong Kong only gets a 5 on Freedom House's Political Rights index and is listed as "partly free." I wish Friedman cared more about the human condition than nominal GDP growth.