The Universe

[Mr. Lennon]

Lets assume the universe really is infinite. Now if the universe is infinite, wouldn't that also mean that there are infinite possibilities for any random event you can think of to happen? Could there be an earth that is exactly the same as ours, and within it, another Zeppelin2282 typing this same very post as I do?

 

[Braznor]

Somewhere out there, there is a universe with me being the Emperor of the Universe.

 

[Valrandir]

Originally posted by: Braznor
Somewhere out there, there is a universe with me being the Emperor of the Universe.

I see what you did here

 

[irishScott]

In that case, wouldn't that also mean that the universe is finite? It's a possibility, and if every possibility is covered...

 

[Foxery]

Being infinite in size does not imply that every possibility must happen. It only increases the probability that something can happen. You're also confusing the concept of space (in one Universe) with alternate timelines, and these are not related.

Within the confines of one universe which has infinite (or incalculably large) size and mass, there are many events which are very similar to one another, but the complexity of a sentient lifeform and its actions are not "an event," they're a combination of many events over billions of years happening in a specific order. The probability of there being another copy of yourself goes back down, due to how unlikely it is for even one of you to exist.

But then, I'm guessing you didn't want a serious answer...

 

[PowerEngineer]

I can remember wondering this same thing years ago... At least I think it was this "me"!

It's my understanding that scientists have a pretty good estimate of (guess about) the amount of energy/matter in our universe. If they're right that there is finite amount of energy/mass, then I'd think that the "possibilities" you describe must also be finite (even if the spatial dimensions aren't).

Of course, it's always possible that the universe beyond our knowledge (i.e. so distant than light has not had time to reach us since "the beginning") may operate differently. Or there could be parallel universes! It's still an entertaining philispohical musing.

Bear in mind that I might be posting something different in response to the posting of that other Zeppelin2282.

 

[Foxery]

Originally posted by: PowerEngineer
It's my understanding that scientists have a pretty good estimate of (guess about) the amount of energy/matter in our universe. If they're right that there is finite amount of energy/mass, then I'd think that the "possibilities" you describe must also be finite (even if the spatial dimensions aren't).

Of course, it's always possible that the universe beyond our knowledge (i.e. so distant than light has not had time to reach us since "the beginning") may operate differently.

Assuming nothing can travel faster than light, then a Universe made of matter also cannot expand faster than the speed of light. Therefore at most, the dimensions of the Universe can be a sphere whose radius is c * 14 billion years. This means that the Universe has a finite size; however, you can never travel to (or beyond) the edge, as it is always expanding ahead of you.

Questions about probability must take time into account - more so than space, I'd say.

 

[Mr. Lennon]

Originally posted by: Foxery

Originally posted by: PowerEngineer
It's my understanding that scientists have a pretty good estimate of (guess about) the amount of energy/matter in our universe. If they're right that there is finite amount of energy/mass, then I'd think that the "possibilities" you describe must also be finite (even if the spatial dimensions aren't).

Of course, it's always possible that the universe beyond our knowledge (i.e. so distant than light has not had time to reach us since "the beginning") may operate differently.

Assuming nothing can travel faster than light, then a Universe made of matter also cannot expand faster than the speed of light. Therefore at most, the dimensions of the Universe can be a sphere whose radius is c * 14 billion years. This means that the Universe has a finite size; however, you can never travel to (or beyond) the edge, as it is always expanding ahead of you.

Questions about probability must take time into account - more so than space, I'd say.

Well what if our universe is a sphere within a even larger sphere and so forth?

 

[Foxery]

Yeah, I figured you weren't serious. Fortunately, I had time to kill today

 

[f95toli]

Originally posted by: Foxery
Assuming nothing can travel faster than light, then a Universe made of matter also cannot expand faster than the speed of light.

That is not quite correct. c is only the "speed limit" for energy/mass, there is nothing preventing the universe itself (i.e. space-time) to expand faster than c.
We are, in fact, quite sure that this is indeed the case, which btw also means that there are regions of space that can not even theoretically interact since the distance between them increases at a speed >c.

 

[Mr. Lennon]

Originally posted by: Foxery
Yeah, I figured you weren't serious. Fortunately, I had time to kill today

I was actually being serious. I'm no science guy, but I'm trying to figure out why my above question would not be possible.

 

[Comdrpopnfresh]

no one is going to be able to answer your question. If there was an exact replica of everything going on here happening somewhere else, with no divergence between the two- some sort of mirroring would be going on. I'd say it isn't impossible, but improbable. Try to imagine a chart of 2-256, with 2 on the bottom, every number in order as its own row above that, with 256 at the top. Now imagine some calculation or active use of each "place" in a number had to be done before going to the next level, so calculate something two times, and you can put a 1/3 in the '3' column above the two. If you did 2^3 calculations, you'd have 3/3 which would go back to 0/3 and the 0/4 above it would change to 1/4. If you did this calculation, even if it were 1+1 all the times necessary to reach even 1-10 /256, you'd probably die of old age. Probability on a large scale your suggesting is kind of like the scenario I put forth, but with a 1 on the bottom, and infinity on the top- the numbers just don't stop. Meaning, there wouldn't be a separate you writing the same thing at the same time on the same forum on the same planet if there weren't the same landscape, history- everything. If it were the same up to the 30's, and hitler never took over germany, you most likely wouldn't be writing it (over there, wherever in the universe). It's cause and effect. Because it is nearly certain I wouldn't be writing this in an alternate portion of the universe if an alternate you didn't exist.

but the number thing is interesting, because as your doing the calculations, there seems to be little difference in two of the same chart if one goes from 2-4 with no 3 and all else is the same, but if you were to do both of the charts out, that one missing 3 makes a world of a difference.

 

[KIAman]

No.

Our existence is a function of time and environment. Environment being the rest of the entire universe. The conditions of the environment allowed this single event to happen, which eventually spawned you and you typing at your keyboard. Even something at the furthest edge of the universe somehow has contributed directly or indirectly to our existence.

Unless the universe has a strange mirroring environmental ability we have yet to discover, then we are truly unique.

Chaos theory describes this well.

 

[bsobel]

Originally posted by: Foxery
Being infinite in size does not imply that every possibility must happen. It only increases the probability that something can happen. You're also confusing the concept of space (in one Universe) with alternate timelines, and these are not related.

Within the confines of one universe which has infinite (or incalculably large) size and mass, there are many events which are very similar to one another, but the complexity of a sentient lifeform and its actions are not "an event," they're a combination of many events over billions of years happening in a specific order. The probability of there being another copy of yourself goes back down, due to how unlikely it is for even one of you to exist.

But then, I'm guessing you didn't want a serious answer...

Actually he's right, an infintite universe can be shown to be equivalent to a multiverse.

 

[hellokeith]

Originally posted by: KIAman
Even something at the furthest edge of the universe somehow has contributed directly or indirectly to our existence.

That statement is more philosophy than science. Like blaming little Billy for little Mary spilling the milk because she wouldn't have done it if little Billy was there.

 

[KIAman]

Originally posted by: hellokeith

Originally posted by: KIAman
Even something at the furthest edge of the universe somehow has contributed directly or indirectly to our existence.

That statement is more philosophy than science. Like blaming little Billy for little Mary spilling the milk because she wouldn't have done it if little Billy was there.

Actually, not philosophical at all and your analogy does not apply. I am not talking about simple cause and effect, rather evolving dynamic systems.

Here is a better analogy.

Little Mary has the milk all to herself because her fraternal twin, Billy, didn't make it at birth.

 

[PowerEngineer]

Originally posted by: KIAman
Our existence is a function of time and environment. Environment being the rest of the entire universe. The conditions of the environment allowed this single event to happen, which eventually spawned you and you typing at your keyboard. Even something at the furthest edge of the universe somehow has contributed directly or indirectly to our existence.

I'd argue that this isn't necessarily the case. Taking the speed of light as the maximum speed that any influence (e.g. electromagnetic, gravitational, etc.) can travel, then it stands to reason that any parts of an infinite universe that are further away from us than light could have traveled since the beginning of time could not have influenced (or even be sensed by) us.

Ignoring the expansion of space, you can think about a "sphere of influence" with us at its center having a radius of the speed of light times the age of the universe. Anything outside the sphere is unknowable and speculation about what's "out there" is therefore more philosophy than science.

It's my understanding that the "inflationary" period almost immediately after the universe came into being provides the "big bang" during which space expanded at many, many times the speed of light. This complicates my simple sphere (because the space inside the sphere is expanding too), but I think it means that there can be parts of a finite universe that are still outside our sphere. If any of these outside parts are still expanding away from us at greater than the speed of light, then we'll never know they even exist. Or maybe that means that by definition they don't exist?