The U.S., the shining example for the world!

[Craig234]

Look in the mirror for the relevance of the quote, dna.

I asked a question, and all I'm getting in response are no answers, just weasely dodges.

The left says 'no torture'. The right says 'oh, we need some torture, anything short of the really extreme that causes permanent major damage'.

How does the right justify the torture at all? Typically with the setup of placing torture against the alternative of many Americans being killed if the info is not obtained.

Since the right is so incabale of seeing the flaws in this, I pointed out a logical consequence of their argument, and asked a simple question.

If this 'saving American lives' is the price of not torturing the people, then it's also the price of not torturing the person's spouse in front of them.

So, I asked, would he allow raping, or beating, or waterboarding the spouse of a prisoner in front of them in order to get them to talk?

And I asked, if not, then how does he justify two of those things against the prisoner directly for the same purpose, and is he then willing to let Americans be killed instead?

Pretty simple questions, and all I get back is hot air, even if perfumed hot air with the name-dropping of Cicero.

But trying to use logic with the right is appearing like it's little different than trying to teach a pig to sing.

 

[ahurtt]

"Other countries" were already treating prisoners in far more dispicable ways before the United States of America was ever even conceived of. Let's stop acting like the U.S. is setting the world precedent for torture and prisoner abuse here. If anything, its amazing we held out as long as we did.

 

[Strk]

Originally posted by: ahurtt
"Other countries" were already treating prisoners in far more dispicable ways before the United States of America was ever even conceived of. Let's stop acting like the U.S. is setting the world precedent for torture and prisoner abuse here. If anything, its amazing we held out as long as we did.

Thank goodness for rendition!

(yeah, that was meant as sarcasm, for the exceptionally thick)

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: ahurtt
"Other countries" were already treating prisoners in far more dispicable ways before the United States of America was ever even conceived of. Let's stop acting like the U.S. is setting the world precedent for torture and prisoner abuse here. If anything, its amazing we held out as long as we did.

Wrong policy, Ahurtt. Can police start raping people because rapists were doing it long before? Can they start murdering and stealing because criminals did long before?

That's the point, that the torture is wrong, which is why the US was always able to condemn it, sometimes to charge people with war crime, to push treaties reducing it.

Because the US stood against it, and those who did it were more vulnerable to some possible future war crimes charges, and other punishments.

Now, the US has 'blessed' the practice of 'torture light', and made it far easier for it to be done, and done openly, legally, anywhere in the world by saying it's "ok".

That's a horrible wrong. The fact that most of those in detention by the US without access to courts is just all the worse; it'd be wrong even if that weren't the case.

 

[imported_dna]

Allow me to correct you: some people on the left say "no torture". Some people also say there is no such thing as illegal aliens, etc, etc...
Too bad such ideals -- if they can be referred to as such -- crash and burn when challenged by reality.

Now to your rather inane question: torture is a tool for extracting information, therefore it has value; how it is applied, or its limits, are different matter.
If you pass a law that forbids any kind of torture, then you have taken care of a captive's dilemma ("should I talk or not"), by answering his most pressing question ("what are they going to do to me?"). At this point the you have removed any uncertainty from game, and the intel agent has no room to maneuver -- might as well have your soldiers shoot them on the battlefield.

As for Cicero and the mirror, you'll have to show me where I've been vehement, because I know my cause isn't weak

 

[jackschmittusa]

Invade a soverign nation for no good reason

promote a new democracy by subverting a free press

harsh interrogation of innocent people because the end justifys the means

arrest and detention with no redress

Come one, come all! See the United States, paragon of freedom, human rights, and fair play. Emulate us and you too will be great.

In regard to our longtime status as occupying the moral high ground, an image comes to mind. It is of a man, noose around his neck, rope firmly attached to the ceiling, frantically ripping up the floorboards to escape.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: dna
Allow me to correct you: some people on the left say "no torture". Some people also say there is no such thing as illegal aliens, etc, etc...
Too bad such ideals -- if they can be referred to as such -- crash and burn when challenged by reality.

Now to your rather inane question: torture is a tool for extracting information, therefore it has value; how it is applied, or its limits, are different matter.
If you pass a law that forbids any kind of torture, then you have taken care of a captive's dilemma ("should I talk or not"), by answering his most pressing question ("what are they going to do to me?"). At this point the you have removed any uncertainty from game, and the intel agent has no room to maneuver -- might as well have your soldiers shoot them on the battlefield.

As for Cicero and the mirror, you'll have to show me where I've been vehement, because I now my cause isn't weak

Very good point, I agree with that 100 percent

 

[hellokeith]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: Genx87
Yes, we all know nobody was tortured or killed before Abu Grahib.

Yep. It all started with Abu Ghraib!

I swear the liberals here fall further off reality every day.

It's quite sad that they think they are in the majority, and yet they continue to lose elections. They live on the Liberalnet, where 9/11 never happened, Clinton is on his 5th term, and the whole world loves the US so much there are no terrorists.:disgust:

*Newsflash* Another innocent terrorist was caught on the battlefield shooting at Coalition forces. The Associated Press is trying to find out when he'll get his phone call, a lawyer, and a conjugal visit from the Red Cross.

 

[Pens1566]

Actually Einstein, Clinton would be on his 4th term. Why start getting things right now though??

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: hellokeith

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: Genx87
Yes, we all know nobody was tortured or killed before Abu Grahib.

Yep. It all started with Abu Ghraib!

I swear the liberals here fall further off reality every day.

It's quite sad that they think they are in the majority, and yet they continue to lose elections. They live on the Liberalnet, where 9/11 never happened, Clinton is on his 5th term, and the whole world loves the US so much there are no terrorists.:disgust:

*Newsflash* Another innocent terrorist was caught on the battlefield shooting at Coalition forces. The Associated Press is trying to find out when he'll get his phone call, a lawyer, and a conjugal visit from the Red Cross.

I think you need to lay off conspiracies and get out of texas for a bit and see how the rest of the world actually operates...

 

[RichardE]

Torturing should be a valid military tactic in saving lives. I would mush rather personally torture everyone found shooting a gun at me to find out there next plan, to perhaps save the lives of my comrades to to worry about the rights of the guy whose killing me.

Protect the rights of your citizens, the people trying to kill your statesman have no rights.

 

[Craig234]

Are you Christian, RichardE?

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: RichardE
Torturing should be a valid military tactic in saving lives. I would mush rather personally torture everyone found shooting a gun at me to find out there next plan, to perhaps save the lives of my comrades to to worry about the rights of the guy whose killing me.

Protect the rights of your citizens, the people trying to kill your statesman have no rights.

Oh god... how many times do we have to repeat this... there is no way for an innocent ACCUSED of being a terrorist of clearing themselves with the current rules.. you are ASSUMING it is all done in good faith, but reading just a few minutes of history should prove otherwise.. blind faith in government is not what this country was founded on.

 

[jackschmittusa]

RichardE

I am sure our G.I.s will be thrilled to know that there are those who propose torturing everybody captured after a firefight.

Maybe there are just too many people too young to remember the outrage over what happened to our guys at places like "The Hanoi Hilton".

Besides, we are not at "war" in Iraq, we are serving as a police force. Would you advocate the local cops picking up people and torturing them to find out who did a drive-by?

 

[RichardE]

Are you Christian, RichardE?

Yes I am. Do you think God would want us to allow someone to kill his people? What if that same person who had blasphemed against him, supported the killing of children and woman and personally asked that all followeres of Jesus/God be murdered/killed, what if this one person held some information to stop the killing. Do you think Jesus/God would want you to sit back and allow innocent people to be killed, when this person, who has done or supported crimes against humanity and against Jesus/God's followers was allowed to go free?

Oh god... how many times do we have to repeat this... there is no way for an innocent ACCUSED of being a terrorist of clearing themselves with the current rules.. you are ASSUMING it is all done in good faith, but reading just a few minutes of history should prove otherwise.. blind faith in government is not what this country was founded on.

Of course not and mistakes happen. If they are shooting at you and trying to kill you though they you can safely assume they are not an innocent I would immagine.

RichardE

I am sure our G.I.s will be thrilled to know that there are those who propose torturing everybody captured after a firefight.

Maybe there are just too many people too young to remember the outrage over what happened to our guys at places like "The Hanoi Hilton".

Besides, we are not at "war" in Iraq, we are serving as a police force. Would you advocate the local cops picking up people and torturing them to find out who did a drive-by?

If that drive by person had information about Mr Smith who was blanning to blow up the starbucks down the street at lunch hour when it was packed? Yes.

People who are active in a war, our side or theres lost there right to humanity. It's cold, but I am one who belives the good of the many outweight the good of the few. Especially when they have no other goal in life but to kill me, to wipe out my religion and promote hate.

 

[irwincur]

Maybe there are just too many people too young to remember the outrage over what happened to our guys at places like "The Hanoi Hilton".

Yeah, I am sure that it never happens to captured American soldiers these days. The problem is, we do not hear what happens to them and the press brushes it under the rug.

American soldiers and citizens are tortured every day, not for the extraction of real information, but for the pure joy of it.

Grow up, the world is really not a nice place. You are going to get kicked from behind, lied to, and cheated, that is a fact. The weak and those doomed to the sidelines of history are those that cannot compete in a harsh world. And well, sometimes that means you have to be an a$$hole to protect and save what your own.

 

[jackschmittusa]

irwincur

So, I guess things like The Hanoi Hilton don't bother you much. Just an expected fact of life. Move on, nothing to see here, just ordinary, everyday torture.

Well, it may be a fact of life. But how do we change it if we are in support of it?

Slavery was the norm for milentia; another exploitation of the weak. Public opposition to it here and abroad has removed it from the mainstream.

While I doubt that we are anywhere near the point where we could create a utopian society for the world, much progress has been made from where it was in times past. If we stop our pursuit of fair play and human rights, only one thing is certain; that we will never get any closer.

We once taught our children the old maxim "It's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game." It seems now that has been replaced by "Do anything necessary to gain an advantage.".

The above is not to be construed as though I am advocating giving in to the terrorists, or that they could defeat us. The only way we could possibly lose is if we ruin ourselves. When we cloak ourselves in fear and agree to abandon our principles for safety; we will be less than we were.

 

[Zebo]

No muslim country has ever signed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.. which sets standards of how to treat prisoners, women, religous minorities, refugees among other things.

If you think anything that went down in abu garab approaches torture Middle East style you are an ignorant fool.
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE230102000?open&of=ENG-2D2

This is an obvious poltical ploy to a) make us look bad by bringing it up again, dispite the fact it was not public policy, was addressed those responsible were punished b) excuse thier dispicable human rights records as they continue to go on today.