The trouble I see in Obamacare

[bradly1101]

We don't yet know what will happen if the vast majority of signups are older and disabled people. Will rates skyrocket if the younger people needed to pay for it stay away or are not enough for our aging population?

In other countries with 'forced' healthcare (Canada, England, Norway...) they pay for the system with taxes. This actually captures more younger dollars through sales, property and/or estate taxes.

And what happens in a few years to already financially-strapped states who will start losing federal funding for their Medicaid programs?

I hope our system isn't doomed to failure from underfunding a heavy load. The penalties for not signing up can add up though.

 

[shortylickens]

The problem you are seeing was observed years ago.

And never dealt with. The whole problem with communal ANYTHING is that it always ends up with a handful of relatively responsible, productive people taking care of a crapload folks who are either lazy, stupid and useless, cheats, or horribly self-destructive. At the very least they dont produce enough value to society (trading goods or services for a paycheck) to balance out all the handouts they'll be getting.


Shit, thats basically me right now. I been out of work for a while, going to school with the GI Bill. So basically I am one of the people milking the system and not providing any value in return, other than volunteering with small local groups to do basically bullshit jobs.
Am not getting any government assistance but still not doing anything truly useful. And when I get my degree theres no promise of any job waiting for me. In fact it looks like there will be more jobs shipped overseas or just plain disappearing by the time I get done.

 

[ivwshane]

The problem you are seeing was observed years ago.

And never dealt with. The whole problem with communal ANYTHING is that it always ends up with a handful of relatively responsible, productive people taking care of a crapload folks who are either lazy, stupid and useless, cheats, or horribly self-destructive. At the very least they dont produce enough value to society (trading goods or services for a paycheck) to balance out all the handouts they'll be getting.


Shit, thats basically me right now. I been out of work for a while, going to school with the GI Bill. So basically I am one of the people milking the system and not providing any value in return, other than volunteering with small local groups to do basically bullshit jobs.
Am not getting any government assistance but still not doing anything truly useful. And when I get my degree theres no promise of any job waiting for me. In fact it looks like there will be more jobs shipped overseas or just plain disappearing by the time I get done.

Self hate? Now that's different.

 

[shortylickens]

Self hate? Now that's different.

I'm a libertarian, not a greedy evil piece of crap. I dont think the government owes me a god damn thing, nor do I owe the government anything more.

 

[AViking]

The real problem is that the vast majority of younger Americans are spending most of their days playing Goat simulator.

WHAT IS OBAMA DOING TO FIX THIS?!

If Mitt Romney was President everything would be ok.

 

[boomerang]

We don't yet know what will happen if the vast majority of signups are older and disabled people. Will rates skyrocket if the younger people needed to pay for it stay away or are not enough for our aging population?

In other countries with 'forced' healthcare (Canada, England, Norway...) they pay for the system with taxes. This actually captures more younger dollars through sales, property and/or estate taxes.

And what happens in a few years to already financially-strapped states who will start losing federal funding for their Medicaid programs?

I hope our system isn't doomed to failure from underfunding a heavy load. The penalties for not signing up can add up though.

I want to congratulate you for understanding some of the major pitfalls of the legislation. The question in my mind is how far down the road are we going to go with this before we make the changes needed. Obamacare has the potential to break the back of the nation from a fiscal perspective.

The Medicaid issue is a huge one. Our friends on the left love to berate those states that did not opt in. But the specter of financial suicide for the states is very real.

The feds will not release the data the conservative media is asking for. There is a reason they won't. Some questions I have:

What percentage of signups have actually paid? In other words how many actually have coverage? The numbers are being fudged. To what degree?

What is the demographic of those people? Age would be the primary factor. Young people are key in this system. How many?

How many of these people lost their coverage and got into the exchanges?

How many of these people are now in Medicaid?

 

[boomerang]

The real problem is that the vast majority of younger Americans are spending most of their days playing Goat simulator.

WHAT IS OBAMA DOING TO FIX THIS?!

If Mitt Romney was President everything would be ok.

I'd say don't be stupid but it's already too late.

 

[sportage]

Nor does the government feel they owe YOU anything....
Social security, YOU paid for.
Unemployment benefits, YOU paid for.
Very few if any government programs are "given" away.
Many government handouts are not handouts at all, but loans that at some point will be paid back by the recipient. Paid back one way or another.
Or deducted from any future tax refunds.
Or deducted from, say, an initial social security disability benefit payout.
Even the food stamp requires one to be in poverty to qualify. In actual economic poverty.

Obamacare is not government healthcare. Fact!
If it were, Obama would have his own government built hospitals, clinics, pharmacies.
And his own doctors.
But I have yet to see one single "OBAMA-PITAL", OBAMA-LININC", or OBAMA-ARMARCY" in my town.

Obamacare simply directs people -TO- existing private insurance providers like Blue-Cross, UnityPoint, Coventry Health, and many other companies that are not now nor have ever been in any way government established government built institutions.

Universal healthcare, as with Canada, "is" government healthcare.
We do not have Universal Healthcare in America.
Here in this country of America, we still have the same-o same-o system of private healthcare for profit.
As I said in another thread, Obamacare does nothing more than direct the customer to some of those private healthcare insurers doing business solely for profiting off your medical need.
Be that a simple check-up, an illness, an emergency, or and including preventive healthcare.

Nothing is free from the government when it comes to healthcare.
Especially thru Obamacare, which is not healthcare in itself.
Obamacare changed the landscape of healthcare in America very little, except, to enact some basic new rules addressing shady practices by private "for profit" insurance providers.

If and when we are lucky enough, and more so wise enough, to actually have national universal healthcare, even THAT will not be some government freebie.
Nor anything close.
As with Canada, we will pay for our healthcare thru taxes.
Sales taxes, income taxes, user taxes, property taxes, school taxes, taxes....

Would people rather pay, say, an 15 - 20 % sales tax, with every citizen enjoying paid healthcare? Every single US citizen.
Or... rack up thousands and hundreds of thousands in medical bills, face bankruptcy, pay thousands in yearly healthcare premiums, play Russian roulette with your health, or join those millions without any healthcare insurance at all?

Those actually collecting government freebie handouts are our corporations.
The true warfare whores of America.
If you really seriously want to get mad, pissed, and outraged over government handouts, government handouts to corporations would be the excellent place to start.

Funny, I have yet to hear a single republican in power or anyone on Fox News share that outrage. Geeee.. Wonder why.

 

[AViking]

The solution is so damn simple.

1. Raise taxes
2. Universal healthcare
3. Join the rest of the modern world

/thread

 

[brycejones]

The solution is so damn simple.

1. Raise taxes
2. Universal healthcare
3. Join the rest of the modern world

/thread

Socialist!

Death Panels

Free market something something

No healthcare for bums

etc etc....

Typical responses and why this thread won't end.

 

[AViking]

I can't make this more clearer. I really can't.

If you're foaming at the mouth and think that universal healthcare is so horrible then I implore you to talk to people who actually live in countries (pretty much the whole first world) where they have it.

I can tell you two things.

1. It's not perfect.
2. It's better than the American system. Way better.

If you want to impress me in one of these discussions then you should come up with a better system. Don't try to tell me though that the US system is amazing and better than tax paid universal healthcare. All statistics prove you wrong.

If you believe that it's not your responsibility to live in a communal system then go live on an island somewhere. Stop trying to ruin the quality of life for a hundred million Americans already!

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

The solution is so damn simple.

1. Raise taxes
2. Universal healthcare
3. Join the rest of the modern world

/thread

Yep it's that easy.

1. Raise taxes
2. ????
3. World peace and prosperity!

Throwing money at politicians who's primary reason for existing is to convince you to vote for a party does not create a good solution.

That takes effort by knowledgeable people. Put them in charge, give me a plan besides "universal health care" and we'll see. Getting something isn't the same as getting something that works well. Quasi-religious faith in politicians isn't the answer.

 

[AViking]

Yes clearly if you have politicians stealing our money it will not work. That's kinda a side topic though.

With that said though I have been to several 3rd world countries where I got free/affordable healthcare as a tourist. High quality too. They might not have had the most modern facilities but their doctors were highly trained and they helped me.

These 3rd world countries have their own set of issues, including corruption, yet they can get a working healthcare system in order.

 

[rudder]

I can't make this more clearer. I really can't.

If you're foaming at the mouth and think that universal healthcare is so horrible then I implore you to talk to people who actually live in countries (pretty much the whole first world) where they have it.

I can tell you two things.

1. It's not perfect.
2. It's better than the American system. Way better.

Do you have data to back that statement up? Better in what way? name on country that does more MRI's than the U.S.... or one country that has a higher MRI scanner/Patient ratio. How about cancer survival rates.. have you ever compared U.S. data to Canada or Britain? What countries have the best access to cancer screening? How many hip replacements are done in other countries vs. the United States? Which countries have the highest rates of diabetes or obesity? Did you know that since the mid 1970's the Nobel Prize in medicine has gone to American residents more often than all other countries combined? American healthcare innovates.

My guess is you actually have no clue as to how other countries systems are better than the U.S.

And if Universal healthcare is the bomb.... why to people in Britain carry supplemental insurance (well the ones that can afford to)?

 

[Newell Steamer]

What will happen,...

It all depends on who you ask.

Ask a critic of Obama; The seas will boil. Lands will go barren. The skies will turn blood red. Death and destruction will wipe out all of humanity. Why, even the 2nd coming of Jesus will be stopped, if you sign up for affordable healthcare. It is GOD's command, that you pay $750 for health insurance. All those other nations, that have less expensive and even free (gasp!!) healthcare,... they are godless beasts and we shouldn't mimic them in anyway,.. because they not only live a life of disease and death, they are also going to hell!!

Ask a supporter of Obama; things are looking good, sure there are hiccups. But, give it some time.

Ask a normal human being; give it some time. Lets see what happens. If anything, I would prefer free healthcare,... like almost every other country on this planet.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Yes clearly if you have politicians stealing our money it will not work. That's kinda a side topic though.

With that said though I have been to several 3rd world countries where I got free/affordable healthcare as a tourist. High quality too. They might not have had the most modern facilities but their doctors were highly trained and they helped me.

These 3rd world countries have their own set of issues, including corruption, yet they can get a working healthcare system in order.

If those making regulations were competent and responsible then when changes kick in it ought to be easier to get patients what they need.

Will you explain to the elderly on Medicare B why pharmacies have to take their diabetic supplies out delivery even if other items are coming free of charge? I mean free. No charge to patient or government. Do they require that in your 3rd world nation? Do they make doing so a criminal act?

Will you explain why it takes providers far more out of their day to jump through hoops and not providing care, improving quality of life, or much of anything else useful? If it's that simple then what I'm talking about should be so easily done right that an idiot could do it right and it isn't.

So you're on the phone and the same people who you think can save us won't let you get an old shut in her test strips. I want you to explain to her how simply good that is.

It is NOT simple. You just don't know how bad it already is because of those who for whatever reason can't get the easy right.

You want UHC? Provide a mechanism which cuts out the crap. I don't mean with dismissive hand waving. This isn't any other nation. This one has its own peculiarities, legally and politically. Get me UHC with quality, without political influence, pandering or ignorant and harmful regulations. Do it in the reality which guarantees needed results with the "now and here" reality.

This isn't simple.

 

[fskimospy]

We don't yet know what will happen if the vast majority of signups are older and disabled people. Will rates skyrocket if the younger people needed to pay for it stay away or are not enough for our aging population?

In other countries with 'forced' healthcare (Canada, England, Norway...) they pay for the system with taxes. This actually captures more younger dollars through sales, property and/or estate taxes.

And what happens in a few years to already financially-strapped states who will start losing federal funding for their Medicaid programs?

I hope our system isn't doomed to failure from underfunding a heavy load. The penalties for not signing up can add up though.

Kaiser did an analysis of premium prices depending on the age distribution of the enrollees.

Long story short they found out if young people enroll at approximately half the rate expected, premiums would likely rise somewhere around 2.4% relative to where they would be otherwise.

http://kff.org/health-reform/perspe...oung-invincibles-and-the-affordable-care-act/

Do you consider a 2.4% rise likely to set off what you're thinking about?

 

[nehalem256]

The solution is so damn simple.

1. Raise taxes
2. Universal healthcare
3. Join the rest of the modern world

/thread

Why would we need to raise taxes?

According to liberals the "rest of the modern world" spends 1/2 as much on healthcare as the US, and since 1/2 of healthcare spending is already by the government...

:hmm:

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

What will happen,...

It all depends on who you ask.

Ask a critic of Obama; The seas will boil. Lands will go barren. The skies will turn blood red. Death and destruction will wipe out all of humanity. Why, even the 2nd coming of Jesus will be stopped, if you sign up for affordable healthcare. It is GOD's command, that you pay $750 for health insurance. All those other nations, that have less expensive and even free (gasp!!) healthcare,... they are godless beasts and we shouldn't mimic them in anyway,.. because they not only live a life of disease and death, they are also going to hell!!

Ask a supporter of Obama; things are looking good, sure there are hiccups. But, give it some time.

Ask a normal human being; give it some time. Lets see what happens. If anything, I would prefer free healthcare,... like almost every other country on this planet.

I can give you free health care. There. Does it make you happy?

 

[AViking]

Do you have data to back that statement up? Better in what way? name on country that does more MRI's than the U.S.... or one country that has a higher MRI scanner/Patient ratio. How about cancer survival rates.. have you ever compared U.S. data to Canada or Britain? What countries have the best access to cancer screening? How many hip replacements are done in other countries vs. the United States? Which countries have the highest rates of diabetes or obesity? Did you know that since the mid 1970's the Nobel Prize in medicine has gone to American residents more often than all other countries combined? American healthcare innovates.

My guess is you actually have no clue as to how other countries systems are better than the U.S.

And if Universal healthcare is the bomb.... why to people in Britain carry supplemental insurance (well the ones that can afford to)?

What does any of that have to do with universal healthcare? Really? What in the world tangent are you trying to divert me to?

If America has a billion MRI machines and a 100% cancer survival rate it is irrelevant unless people have access to it and can afford it. Universal healthcare is about giving access to healthcare to the entire population.

I did take a small look at cancer survival rates though. First one I looked at was breast cancer. Sweden leads the USA there. Colon cancer has the USA doing a couple percent better. All cancers combined? Sweden is doing better than the USA.

You are absolutely right though that the USA is doing a little bit better than Canada and the UK so good job selectively choosing those. However if you look at cancer death/survival (your choice) per 100,000 people you'll see that the numbers are not that far off. Our system is just wasting too much money and leaving too many people either bankrupt or without adequate care to get such minor statistical increases over Canada and the UK.

Since Sweden is doing better than the USA though maybe we can look closer at what we're doing right over here. Canada for example is not investing in MRI machines at all and there was a study I heard about recently where they were questioning the value of some of our mammogram or sonogram machines.

The key is to spend our money wisely and protect our population. The USA is not doing either correctly.

 

[fskimospy]

Do you have data to back that statement up? Better in what way? name on country that does more MRI's than the U.S.... or one country that has a higher MRI scanner/Patient ratio. How about cancer survival rates.. have you ever compared U.S. data to Canada or Britain? What countries have the best access to cancer screening? How many hip replacements are done in other countries vs. the United States? Which countries have the highest rates of diabetes or obesity? Did you know that since the mid 1970's the Nobel Prize in medicine has gone to American residents more often than all other countries combined? American healthcare innovates.

I strongly suggest that you look at those differences actually. The results might shock you: the US spends VASTLY more than those other systems for a very modest improvement in survival rates for some cancers (and worse for others). You would also be surprised to see that other countries that pay less than us overall simply have superior health outcomes, especially per dollar.

Also, studies have shown that obese people/people with diabetes actually have lower lifetime health costs than healthier, longer lived people as they die earlier.

And if Universal healthcare is the bomb.... why to people in Britain carry supplemental insurance (well the ones that can afford to)?

Isn't this the best possible scenario? Everyone gets a minimum level of health care, and if you can afford better you get better.

 

[AViking]

If those making regulations were competent and responsible then when changes kick in it ought to be easier to get patients what they need.

Will you explain to the elderly on Medicare B why pharmacies have to take their diabetic supplies out delivery even if other items are coming free of charge? I mean free. No charge to patient or government. Do they require that in your 3rd world nation? Do they make doing so a criminal act?

Will you explain why it takes providers far more out of their day to jump through hoops and not providing care, improving quality of life, or much of anything else useful? If it's that simple then what I'm talking about should be so easily done right that an idiot could do it right and it isn't.

So you're on the phone and the same people who you think can save us won't let you get an old shut in her test strips. I want you to explain to her how simply good that is.

It is NOT simple. You just don't know how bad it already is because of those who for whatever reason can't get the easy right.

You want UHC? Provide a mechanism which cuts out the crap. I don't mean with dismissive hand waving. This isn't any other nation. This one has its own peculiarities, legally and politically. Get me UHC with quality, without political influence, pandering or ignorant and harmful regulations. Do it in the reality which guarantees needed results with the "now and here" reality.

This isn't simple.

We waste a lot of money. I have family that are physicians, surgeons, nurses, and I myself have worked in a pharmacy. The money we waste is enormous. The stupid rules we have are complicated and waste everyone's time and money.

At the end of the day though if we chose to have a for profit healthcare system at the expense of our population then we aren't going to get anywhere.

The best thing we have in Sweden are private hospitals that are paid for by the government. It's truly amazing how high the quality is and how well they are run. They don't waste time or money. I think they're relatively new or maybe I just know of the one but I think they're the future.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

We waste a lot of money. I have family that are physicians, surgeons, nurses, and I myself have worked in a pharmacy. The money we waste is enormous. The stupid rules we have are complicated and waste everyone's time and money.

At the end of the day though if we chose to have a for profit healthcare system at the expense of our population then we aren't going to get anywhere.

The best thing we have in Sweden are private hospitals that are paid for by the government. It's truly amazing how high the quality is and how well they are run. They don't waste time or money. I think they're relatively new or maybe I just know of the one but I think they're the future.

I'm a provider. I have to deal with the US, not Sweden. I have to spend 1 to 2 hours a day out of 12, at least four times what I did a handful of years ago trying to get what patients need. Most of that government induced. I have to interact with other providers who have to spend similar amounts of time FOR THE SAME PERSON AND PROBLEM. I emphasize that to drive home that it's not just poor me. It's me and others AND the patient, who this is supposed to be all all about to begin with. What we are dealing with now is simple stupid compared to the task of taking one of the most complicated, if not THE most complicated system to have ever existed, completely reworking it, making it better and not killing anyone in the process by making it so extraordinarily complicated that the red tape takes another life. UHC isn't anything other than a result. It isn't salvation, Jesus in a syringe, and so far the competency level demonstrated is miserable.

Before this Obamastuff came about I asked for reform, and coverage would be a part of it, but we got a diversion which now locks in a funding mechanism which is going to be extremely hard to rework. The Faithful have already opposed alternatives before, defending that which they don't understand. Nope. In THIS nation there is no political accountability while in office. Graft, incompetence, corruption are not only tolerated but part if the working day to day operations. We have two parties which own us. There is no vote of confidence, no way to say "No, this is unacceptable" but to kick out a small part of the whole. You can remove one head of the Hydra, but even then only every few years, and that is the real concern.

You didn't answer my question and I am going to hold you to it. I want to hear you tell that old woman, not some hypothetical person, but one I had to deal with in this very real world how the people who would make you a criminal for taking her test strips to her just need to get control of the whole thing and that automatically fixes it. For heaven sake don't mention Sweden unless Sweden is going to bring her what she needs.

I want not a result, but a plan to get there. Give it to me.

 

[Matt1970]

The solution is so damn simple.

1. Raise taxes
2. Universal healthcare
3. Join the rest of the modern world

/thread

Sure, get the tax hikes passed and you have something. But remember, this is a country that the bottom half of basically have no real tax burden and they still cry how things are so unfair.

 

[AViking]

Sure, get the tax hikes passed and you have something. But remember, this is a country that the bottom half of basically have no real tax burden and they still cry how things are so unfair.

You either don't understand taxes or are intentionally being obtuse.