The thread is closed :

[William Gaatjes]

The thread with a difficult subject is closed.
I wanted to respond to some posts and post this documentary to show what i worry about. Here the hatred fundamental people and orthodox people have and spread clearly shows. And will be the continued deliberate separation :

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7956238808750388174#

It is also very interesting because a simple message : Look out and care for each other is the universal message to be found all over the earth no matter the culture or religion. Unfortunately when the deceivers(fundamentals and orthodox) get their hands on a religion hate is spread.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

Tagged for later, hopefully you change your mind.

 

[Lemon law]

Maybe not all the different from the spread of Islam, both leaders achieved minimum fame during their lifetimes, but some of their early disciples were the the best PR people on the planet at the time.

 

[William Gaatjes]

If you watch the complete documentary, you will be in for some good hope for humanity when you have seen it all.

 

[wuliheron]

It is also very interesting because a simple message : Look out and care for each other is the universal message to be found all over the earth no matter the culture or religion. Unfortunately when the deceivers(fundamentals and orthodox) get their hands on a religion hate is spread.

I saw that show when it first aired, but I don't remember the whole thing.

The idea that people need to be told to look out for one another and care about each other suggests they don't already want to do so. It is dogma and ideology that are the problem, not fundamentalism and orthodoxy, which merely take these to extremes. Thus in the name of people taking care of each other even atheists like Stalin have become mass murderers.

Notably the majority of thriving democracies in the world today are all moderately socialist and largely secular. People tend to describe themselves as "spiritual" rather religious and rarely attend services. In contrast to overwhelmingly religious places like the US their social problems are marginal. In general, the less religious people are the higher their education and income and, ironically, the more they actually know about religion.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Maybe not all the different from the spread of Islam, both leaders achieved minimum fame during their lifetimes, but some of their early disciples were the the best PR people on the planet at the time.

There are many more religions that have had the message long before Islam or Christianity.

I should note, that one view of history is that because of the corruption and stealing(plain robbing) of (roman catholic)Christianity in the middle east, a lot of people where eager to convert to Islam during the rapid expansion of Islam at the time. Ironic is it not ? When thinking of Roman Emperor Constantine the great turning to Christianity about 400 to 500 years earlier.

 

[William Gaatjes]

I saw that show when it first aired, but I don't remember the whole thing.

The idea that people need to be told to look out for one another and care about each other suggests they don't already want to do so. It is dogma and ideology that are the problem, not fundamentalism and orthodoxy, which merely take these to extremes. Thus in the name of people taking care of each other even atheists like Stalin have become mass murderers.

Notably the majority of thriving democracies in the world today are all moderately socialist and largely secular. People tend to describe themselves as "spiritual" rather religious and rarely attend services. In contrast to overwhelmingly religious places like the US their social problems are marginal. In general, the less religious people are the higher their education and income and, ironically, the more they actually know about religion.

I do not doubt that Stalin never cared for anyone but himself. Stalin was a coward of the first degree. He was scared to death for, for example Adolf Hitler and also for Josip Broz Tito, the man who united Yugoslavia. The bold part is so very true. Wannabe rulers want slaves not friends who think.

EDIT:
Famous quote from Tito to Stalin "Stop sending agents to kill me or I will send one man to Moscow and it will not be necessary to send another one."

 

[wuliheron]

I do not doubt that Stalin never cared for anyone but himself. Stalin was a coward of the first degree. He was scared to death for, for example Adolf Hitler and also for Josip Broz Tito, the man who united Yugoslavia. The bold part is so very true. Wannabe rulers want slaves not friends who think.

Its not just a question of wannabe rulers.

For me all religions and moralities are about controlling resources. Primitive tribes like the !Kung often don't even have words for things like guilt and greed. Not because they're ignorant or totally naive, but because they just don't need them and find the whole concept distasteful and counterproductive. Its only when people start organizing in large groups of about 300 or more that all these abstract concepts take center stage and then whatever happens to survive in the local environment dominates.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Its not just a question of wannabe rulers.

For me all religions and moralities are about controlling resources. Primitive tribes like the !Kung often don't even have words for things like guilt and greed. Not because they're ignorant or totally naive, but because they just don't need them and find the whole concept distasteful and counterproductive. Its only when people start organizing in large groups of about 300 or more that all these abstract concepts take center stage and then whatever happens to survive in the local environment dominates.

Yes, the big problem as always is balancing mentality :
How do you create an environment for progression without competition ?

It seems every religion steered society is only for a short time able to be in an perfection/assimilation state where all the best things of different cultures are accepted and integrated. However this is not a religion quality. It is a mentality quality. Religion causes people to have similar views and mentality and work as one. But of course, internal struggles will increase up to a breaking point. This is human nature. We all have a build in desire to be the Alpha. Perhaps when we have a more mixed gender society where educated male and educated females balance each other out, it is possible. I do not know. It can even be seen in nature with certain primates, where the females have a thing to say about the structure of the group there is less internal struggle between the males in the group. It seems the group as a whole behaves as a more intelligent collective.But of course, since nature loves to swap genes, the same competitive behavior can also be found in females.

To return to the issue of internal struggle :
This can be seen in the Christianity and a wonderful example is Cordoba in Spain. The Muslims lost in Spain primarily because of internal struggles and fights. The same reason why the Roman Empire failed and why any society fails. Because some people feel they are entitled without doing work.

 

[wuliheron]

Religion causes people to have similar views and mentality and work as one. But of course, internal struggles will increase up to a breaking point. This is human nature. We all have a build in desire to be the Alpha.

That's not religion or human nature. Whether religious or not people and societies can be incredibly violent or peaceful. Bhutan is perhaps a great example of a religious country that is incredibly peaceful and even measures its "gross domestic happiness". This whole "alpha male" crap is so much western ethnocentrism. Sure, there's a little bit of that in everyone but its completely blown out of proportion along with the whole Christian "original sin" idea.

To return to the issue of internal struggle :
This can be seen in the Christianity and a wonderful example is Cordoba in Spain. The Muslims lost in Spain primarily because of internal struggles and fights. The same reason why the Roman Empire failed and why any society fails. Because some people feel they are entitled without doing work.

That's again just another gross simplification reminiscent of Calvinism (if shit happens, Work Harder!) The issue is control and distribution of wealth. If you are starving to death and being horribly exploited it doesn't matter how hard working the wealthy are. In some countries religion's role in distributing the wealth is simple and obvious.

For example, in Tibet the youngest son always joins a Buddhist monastery. The problem is the whole country is mountains and the little land that can be farmed can only be divided up so far. The solution is that a large percentage of the population joins a monastery and at least has their basic needs taken care of. If for some reason their population drops due to war or whatever, they can recover that much more quickly. Their religion supports the system, provides the people with the psychological tools to be comfortable in a monastery, etc.

 

[William Gaatjes]

That's not religion or human nature. Whether religious or not people and societies can be incredibly violent or peaceful. Bhutan is perhaps a great example of a religious country that is incredibly peaceful and even measures its "gross domestic happiness". This whole "alpha male" crap is so much western ethnocentrism. Sure, there's a little bit of that in everyone but its completely blown out of proportion along with the whole Christian "original sin" idea.

No no, it is not a religion issue at all. As i have mentioned in my post religion can be a force to unify people(same mentality) but inevitably internal struggle will cause the collapse. A common enemy can also be a unifying force as can be seen in the cold war. It can even be seen in current world affairs.

And born with sin, this is a product of the catholic church and the pharisees.

That's again just another gross simplification reminiscent of Calvinism (if shit happens, Work Harder!) The issue is control and distribution of wealth. If you are starving to death and being horribly exploited it doesn't matter how hard working the wealthy are. In some countries religion's role in distributing the wealth is simple and obvious.

For example, in Tibet the youngest son always joins a Buddhist monastery. The problem is the whole country is mountains and the little land that can be farmed can only be divided up so far. The solution is that a large percentage of the population joins a monastery and at least has their basic needs taken care of. If for some reason their population drops due to war or whatever, they can recover that much more quickly. Their religion supports the system, provides the people with the psychological tools to be comfortable in a monastery, etc.

Well, i guess i should have made my point more clear that when everybody works, the burden is shared upon everybody. I do not believe in communism or that some religious people should be exempted from working and carrying the load of maintaining society. If you want to eat, you have to help create food. I think it is pretty obvious that nobody wants to see others starving.

What is the issue then ?
When a lot of food is thrown away just because a small group of people can make more profit, then that is something that is just wrong. And that is an issue that happens all to often to all industries. There is no shortage, there is by some a perceived lack of profit. And will act accordingly. What i find most surprising is that mostly this is under a left umbrella. Left meaning here left as is perceived in the Netherlands which is far more liberal and left then can be found in most locations of the US. (assuming you are from the US but even if not, i think you will get the idea.)

It is for example common that fruit that does not look good is used to produce food with fruit mixed into it. And that vegetables that does not look good is turned into bags of sliced mixed vegetables for example southern European or Oriental recipes. However, still a lot is thrown away just to protect the market. Mostly under the lie of good for the environment and being cheaper claiming to be more efficient. And there the issue can be found. Who determines what is efficient. Because it depends on perspective.
Society should be governed by a long term view combined with a mathematical basis of society. To make sure that there are enough compensating forces(an overall integrating effect) to allow a reasonable amount of freedom and luxury for anyone which usually is accompanied with an amount of expected chaos and spikes. While also not causing the system to fall. Now, if you have a lot of money you have a lot of control. That is not an issue as long as you make wise decisions. However, most nouveau riche have no worldly view or future view and are an destabilizing factor just as anybody who only lives in the "now".

To turn back to the issue of environment :
For example in the Netherlands, for years left people have been pushing the green agenda that waste should be separated for a part to be burned and a part to be reused. A good thing you would say and i would say i agree.
But now since a lot more profit can be made everything is burned and turned into electricity because it is cheaper (meaning money comes from selling electricity and no dealing with solid waste but of course the gases are forgotten). Of course, the left people are nowhere to be found. Of course not, shares anyone ? Dumb any one ? Ensured political career any one ?
The same kind of people who are in favor of electricity generating by coal burning while claiming that nuclear generated electricity is the metaphorical devil.

The real issue is mentality and having a positive future world view.
The issue is lack of hope.

 

[wuliheron]

The real issue is mentality and having a positive future world view.
The issue is lack of hope.

Ritual
Well established hierarchies are not easily uprooted;
Closely held beliefs are not easily released;
So ritual enthralls generation after generation.
Harmony does not care for harmony, and so is naturally attained;
But ritual is intent upon harmony, and so can not attain it.
Harmony neither acts nor reasons;
Love acts, but without reason;
Justice acts to serve reason;
But ritual acts to enforce reason.
When the Way is lost, there remains harmony;
When harmony is lost, there remains love;
When love is lost, there remains justice;
But when justice is lost, there remains ritual.
Ritual is the end of compassion and honesty,
The beginning of confusion;
Belief is a colourful hope or fear,
The beginning of folly.
The sage goes by harmony, not by hope;
He dwells in the fruit, not the flower;
He accepts substance, and ignores abstraction.
Lao Tzu