The Theory of Evolution

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Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
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Originally posted by: cwgannon
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Originally posted by: cwgannon
Originally posted by: Riprorin

140 years ago Darwin said: "Right now there are no transitional forms, yet further research will uncover them."

We already fvcking went over this. Darwin is not a deity, divine being, or whatever else; he is not the equivalent to your Jesus Christ or the head honcho of whatever altar you sacrifice your cattle at. He was wrong in some aspects, just as Galileo was, just as Newton was, and just as Einstein was.

Pull your head out of your ass, please.

140 years and millions of fossils later, we're still waiting for research to uncover transitional forms.

You are neither the brightest bulb, nor the sharpest knife.

My point was that Darwin was wrong at times; meaning that, we may very well not uncover your oh-so-crucial transitional forms.

Does this throw out the entire theory of evolution? You fvcking wish.

If all life originated from a single cell organism, the fossil record should be replete with transitional foms linking one species to another.

On the contrary, not a SINGLE transitional form has been uncovered.

The fossil record is consistent with special creation: Orgnaisms appear all at once, fully-formed and are similar, if not identical to, organisms living today.

 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
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Originally posted by: NeenerNeener

So I can make one simple assumption, my postulate which states:
There is a God and God created everything.
This is an assumption because there is no way to prove or disprove it.

So sorry, but your "one simple assumption" is actually two assumptions:

1) God created the universe.
2) God has existed forever (nothing created God).

Compare that with:

1) The universe has existed forever (nothing created the universe).

The "God theory" loses.
 

cwgannon

Member
May 24, 2005
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Alright.

I concede.

You've proven that because we can't find certain fossils, God must have done it.

Congratulations.
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
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Originally posted by: cwgannon
Alright.

I concede.

You've proven that because we can't find certain fossils, God must have done it.

Congratulations.

Not only can we not find "certain fossils", we can't find ANY transitional forms!

Don't take my word for it. Here are some quotes from some famous evolutionists:

In reply to a questioner who asked Dr Colin Patterson, senior paleontologist of the British Museum of Natural History why he had not included any pictures of transitional forms in his book "Evolution", he wrote:

I fully agree with your comments about the lack of direct illustration of evolutionary transitions in my book. If I knew of any, fossil or living, I would certainly have included them ? . I will lay it on the line?there is not one such fossil for which one could make a watertight argument.

The renowned evolutionist Stephen Jay Gould, a paleontologist and educator at Harvard University wrote:

The absence of fossil evidence for intermediary stages between major transitions in organic design, indeed our inability, even in our imagination, to construct functional intermediates in many cases, has been a persistent and nagging problem for gradualistic accounts of evolution.

And:

I regard the failure to find a clear ?vector of progress? in life?s history as the most puzzling fact of the fossil record.

As Sunderland points out:

It of course would be no puzzle at all if he [Gould] had not decided before he examined the evidence that common-ancestry evolution was a fact, ?like apples falling from a tree,? and that we can only permit ourselves to discuss possible mechanisms to explain that assumed fact.
 

NeenerNeener

Senior member
Jun 8, 2005
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Originally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: NeenerNeener

So I can make one simple assumption, my postulate which states:
There is a God and God created everything.
This is an assumption because there is no way to prove or disprove it.

So sorry, but your "one simple assumption" is actually two assumptions:

1) God created the universe.
2) God has existed forever (nothing created God).

Compare that with:

1) The universe has existed forever (nothing created the universe).

The "God theory" loses.


1) Light behaves like a particle
2) Light behaves like a wave

Oh no! It couldn't be right! There's duality!

Seems like you rely on your single postulate to split mine in two. I never said anything about forever or infinity. Prior to the big bang, there could have been nothing for all we know.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
81
Originally posted by: NeenerNeener
Originally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: NeenerNeener

So I can make one simple assumption, my postulate which states:
There is a God and God created everything.
This is an assumption because there is no way to prove or disprove it.

So sorry, but your "one simple assumption" is actually two assumptions:

1) God created the universe.
2) God has existed forever (nothing created God).

Compare that with:

1) The universe has existed forever (nothing created the universe).

The "God theory" loses.


1) Light behaves like a particle
2) Light behaves like a wave

Oh no! It couldn't be right! There's duality!

Seems like you rely on your single postulate to split mine in two. I never said anything about forever or infinity. Prior to the big bang, there could have been nothing for all we know.

The whole point of this thread is the orgin of things. You don't think you can get away with introducing God, then not have to explain the origin of God, do you? Sorry, that's a no-no.

I need only explain the ultimate cause of the universe (which is: it's been around forever and nothing created it).

You take an extra step: You explain the ultimate cause of the universe as God. But then you need to explain the ultimate cause of God (that's something I don't have to do).

All you've done is moved the need for "where it all came from" back a step.

In other words, YOU need to explain the origins of the universe AND of God. I only need to explain the origins of the universe.

As to your wave-particle duality thingee, I have no idea why you've introduced it here. It has nothing whatever to do with this topic.

As I said, God loses.

 

abj13

Golden Member
Jan 27, 2005
1,071
902
136
Originally posted by: Riprorin
In reply to a questioner who asked Dr Colin Patterson, senior paleontologist of the British Museum of Natural History why he had not included any pictures of transitional forms in his book "Evolution", he wrote:

I fully agree with your comments about the lack of direct illustration of evolutionary transitions in my book. If I knew of any, fossil or living, I would certainly have included them ? . I will lay it on the line?there is not one such fossil for which one could make a watertight argument.

Real Source of the Quote:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/patterson.html

Originally posted by: Riprorin

The renowned evolutionist Stephen Jay Gould, a paleontologist and educator at Harvard University wrote:

The absence of fossil evidence for intermediary stages between major transitions in organic design, indeed our inability, even in our imagination, to construct functional intermediates in many cases, has been a persistent and nagging problem for gradualistic accounts of evolution.

Intellectual Dishonestly. So what webpage did you steal that from, without giving credit?

What really was said:

"The absence of fossil evidence for intermediary stages between major transitions in organic design, indeed our inability, even in our imagination, to construct functional intermediates in many cases, has been a persistent and nagging problem for gradualist accounts of evolution." (Gould, Stephen J., 'Is a new and general theory of evolution emerging?' Paleobiology, vol 6(1), January 1980, p. 127)

This is a rather unspectacularly predictable mined quote, as everyone who has had a few hours exposure to Gould's writings on evolution can instantly see that he's arguing against gradualism and probably in favor of punctuated equilibrium, a theory that he co-originated with Eldredge in 1972. Contrary to possible first impressions of the uninformed, Gould is presenting a problem FOR gradualist evolution, and countering WITH solutions to this apparent "problem" later in the paragraph.

And, in typical quote-mining style, this sentence has been taken out of its natural ecosystem. In this section of the paper, Gould is outlining the challenge to gradualist models of macroevolution in three loosely united themes. He is not challenging evolution itself nor is he discounting the vast wealth of fossil data that already exists.

Therefore, someone unfamiliar with Gould who would read the quote alone, above, who does not understand Gould's argument in the paper nor his scientific history will not realize he's just questioning gradualism as a theory of evolutionary change, and not realize he's simultaneously proposing a better idea of evolutionary change to fit the observed data.

As far as the paper goes, the quote above is actually from point #2 in his argument, and you'll have to see the full context to see where it's been selectively snipped. Here's the full context, starting with his point #2 but not encompassing the entire section #2 (which goes on in the same vein a while longer).

" 2. The saltational initiation of major transitions: The absence of fossil evidence for intermediary states between major transitions in organic design, indeed our inability, even in our imagination, to construct functional intermediates in many cases, has been a persistent and nagging problem for gradualistic accounts of evolution. St. George Mivart (1871), Darwin's most cogent critic, referred to it as the dilemma of "the incipient stages of useful structures" -- of what possible benefit to a reptile is two percent of a wing? The dilemma has two potential solutions. The first, preferred by Darwinians because it preserves both gradualism and adaptation, is the principle of preadaptation: the intermediate stages functioned in another way but were, by good fortune in retrospect, pre-adapted to a new role they could play only after greater elaboration. Thus, if feathers first functioned "for" insulation and later "for" the trapping of insect prey (Ostrom 1979) a proto-wing might be built without any reference to flight.

I do not doubt the supreme importance of preadaptation, but the other alternative, treated with caution, reluctance, disdain or even fear by the modern synthesis, now deserves a rehearing in the light of renewed interest in development: perhaps, in many cases, the intermediates never existed. I do not refer to the saltational origin of entire new designs, complete in all their complex and integrated features -- a fantasy that would be truly anti-Darwinian in denying any creativity to selection and relegating it to the role of eliminating new models. Instead, I envisage a potential saltational origin for the essential features of key adaptations. Why may we not imagine that gill arch bones of an ancestral agnathan moved forward in one step to surround the mouth and form proto-jaws? Such a change would scarcely establish the Bauplan of the gnathostomes. So much more must be altered in the reconstruction of agnathan design -- the building of a true shoulder girdle with bony, paired appendages, to say the least. But the discontinuous origin of a proto-jaw might set up new regimes of development and selection that would quickly lead to other, coordinated modifications." (Gould, Stephen J., 'Is a new and general theory of evolution emerging?' Paleobiology, vol 6(1), January 1980, pp. 126-127)

Gould then goes on to show that Darwin conflated gradualism with natural selection, and then talks more in point #2 about future work in the field of evolutionary development that yields testable hypothesis for small changes in developmental pathways (corresponding to small evolutionary changes) yielding large changes in adult body plans. Gould states that this is the kind of approach that will give forth real information rather than adaptive stories or hypothetical intermediates. Gould was probably not exactly a 'visionary' for proposing this in print, but evolutionary developmental biology seems to be giving plenty of support to the theory of evolution these days.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/quotes/mine/part1-3.html

Originally posted by: Riprorin
I regard the failure to find a clear ?vector of progress? in life?s history as the most puzzling fact of the fossil record.

What is really said:

We can tell tales of improvement for some groups, but in honest moments we must admit that the history of complex life is more a story of multifarious variation about a set of basic designs than a saga of accumulating excellence. ... I regard the failure to find a clear 'vector of progress' in life's history as the most puzzling fact of the fossil record. ... we have sought to impose a pattern that we hoped to find on a world that does not really display it.", Natural His., 2/82, p.22

Representative quote miners: The Interactive Bible: Professor Knockout Quotes!, Institute for Creation Research: The Vanishing Case for Evolution, and Answers in Genesis: The Links Are Missing

This article can be found in The Flamingo's Smile, 1985 (New York: W.W. Norton & Co.) under the title "Death and Transfiguration", pp. 230-44.

[Editor's note: the very last line of the above quote appears in The Flamingo's Smile as "we have sought to impose a pattern that we hoped to find on a world that does not really acquiesce" but that may have been a change by Gould during the editing of the book, just as the title of the article was changed.]

First of all, let's note an obvious bit of dishonesty. This quote is used by creationists in a number of forms, from the relatively expansive example above to a single sentence: "I regard the failure to find a clear 'vector of progress' in life's history as the most puzzling fact of the fossil record." However, they all omit the very next sentence: "But I also believe that we are now on the verge of a solution, thanks to a better understanding of evolution in both normal and catastrophic times." No reasonable person can doubt that this omission was intentional.

Having hijacked Gould's name for the proposition that there is some mystery in the fossil record that contradicts evolutionary theory, the quote miners deliberately omit the fact that Gould sees a possible solution. This is chicanery under the most charitable interpretation. Of course, if they have an argument to counter Gould's position and wish to make a case that this "puzzle" is both real and a problem for evolutionary theory, then they are free to present it so that the reader can judge between them. That would be an honorable intellectual exercise. To simply mangle Gould's intent with omissions and ellipses demonstrates that honorable intellectual discourse is the farthest thing from the quote miner's mind.

So, what was Gould really discussing? It should not come as any surprise that his subject was Punctuated Equilibria and, in particular, the possible interplay between it and mass extinctions. These great extinctions have been known from the very beginning of geology as a science and they serve as the markers of the major divisions in the geological column. Gould begins by giving his opinion that paleontologists have tended to mitigate the effects of the mass extinctions, due to their preference (at least before Punctuated Equilibria was formulated) for gradual and continuous change. According to Gould, they tended to depict these events as merely larger and more abrupt examples of the everyday forces leading to extinction of individual species. In doing so, continuity across the mass extinction boundaries was emphasized and all signs of pre-extinction decline were touted as evidence that the peaks were neither high enough nor abrupt enough to support an inference of a catastrophic change.

In a fairly complex discussion of then-new data and interpretations, completely ignored by the quote miners, he argues that these traditional viewpoints are wrong. Relevant to the quote mine, he points to findings about "species-rich clades", evolutionary branches containing many species, versus those of "species-poor clades" that never contained many species. Species-rich clades tend to increase their numbers during normal times, winning increasing numerical advantage over species-poor clades. He asks: "[W]hy, then, don't species-rich clades take over the biosphere entirely?" He suggests that the answer may lie in data indicating that species-poor clades do better in mass extinctions because "The individual species in species-poor clades have wider geographic ranges and broader ecological tolerances than the narrow-nitched taxa of species-rich clades." In short, individual species that have remained "generalists", not adapted to some narrow means of making a living in a limited geographical area, have a better chance of surviving a radical change in the environment.

With that as the context, here is the passage that most of the quote mine comes from (pp. 240-41):

This contrary behavior of species-rich clades in normal and catastrophic times preserves a balance that permits both species-rich and species-poor clades to flourish throughout life's history. More important in our context, this distinction emphasizes the qualitative difference between normal times and catastrophic zaps. Mass extinctions are not simply more of the same. They affect various elements of the biosphere in a distinctive manner, quite different from the patterns of normal times.

As we survey the history of life since the inception of multicellular complexity in Ediacaran times (see essay 16 ["Reducing Riddles"]), one feature stands out as most puzzling -- the lack of clear order and progress through time among marine invertebrate faunas. We can tell tales of improvement for some groups, but in honest moments we must admit that the history of complex life is more a story of multifarious variation about a set of basic designs than a saga of accumulating excellence. The eyes of early trilobites, for example, have never been exceeded for complexity or acuity by later arthropods. Why do we not find this expected order?

Perhaps the expectation itself is faulty, a product of pervasive, progressivist bias in Western thought and never a prediction of evolutionary theory. Yet, if natural selection rules the world of life, we should detect some fitful accumulation of better and more complex design through time -- amidst all the fluctuations and backings and forthings that must characterize a process primarily devoted to constructing a better fit between organisms and changing local environments. Darwin certainly anticipated such progress when he wrote:

The inhabitants of each successive period in the world's history have beaten their predecessors in the race for life, and are, insofar, higher in the scale of nature; and this may account for that vague yet ill-defined sentiment, felt by many paleontologists, that organization on the whole has progressed.

I regard the failure to find a clear "vector of progress" in life's history as the most puzzling fact of the fossil record. But I also believe that we are now on the verge of a solution, thanks to a better understanding of evolution in both normal and catastrophic times.

What then is Gould's solution? That follows directly on the above:

I have devoted the last ten years of my professional life in paleontology to constructing an unorthodox theory for explaining the lack of expected patterns during normal times -- the theory of punctuated equilibrium. Niles Eldredge and I, the perpetrators of this particularly uneuphonious name, argue that the pattern of normal times is not a tale of continuous adaptive improvement within lineages. Rather, species form rapidly in geological perspective (thousands of years) and tend to remain highly stable for millions of years thereafter. Evolutionary success must be assessed among species themselves, not at the traditional Darwinian level of struggling organisms within populations. The reasons that species succeed are many and varied -- high rates of speciation and strong resistance to extinction, for example -- and often involve no reference to traditional expectations for improvement in morphological design. If punctuated equilibrium dominates the pattern of normal times, then we have come a long way toward understanding the curiously fluctuating directions of life's history. Until recently, I suspected that punctuated equilibrium might resolve the dilemma of progress all by itself.

I now realize that the fluctuating pattern must be constructed by a complex and fascinating interaction of two distinct tiers of explanation -- punctuated equilibrium for normal times, and the different effects produced by separate processes of mass extinction. Whatever accumulates by punctuated equilibrium (or by other processes) in normal times can be broken up, dismantled, reset, and dispersed by mass extinction. If punctuated equilibrium upset traditional expectations (and did it ever!), mass extinction is far worse. Organisms cannot track or anticipate the environmental triggers of mass extinction. No matter how well they adapt to environmental ranges of normal times, they must take their chances in catastrophic moments. And if extinctions can demolish more than 90 percent of all species, then we must be losing groups forever by pure bad luck among a few clinging survivors designed for another world.

Then comes the last bit of the quote mine and the conclusion of the article (p. 242-43):

Heretofore, we have thrown up our hands in frustration at the lack of expected pattern in life's history -- or we have sought to impose a pattern that we hoped to find on a world that does not really acquiesce. Perhaps now we can navigate between a Scylla of despair and a Charybdis of comforting unreality. If we can develop a general theory of mass extinction, we may finally understand why life has thwarted our expectations -- and we may even extract an unexpected kind of pattern from apparent chaos. The fast track of an extraordinary meeting in Indianapolis may be pointing the way.

Note again that the quote miners have separated this snippet from Gould's proposition of a possible solution in what can only be a deliberate attempt to sow confusion as to his opinion of how serious a problem this is for evolutionary theory.

This article appears to be the beginnings of Gould's argument, laid out in full in Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History, 1990 (New York: W. W. Norton & Company), as to the contingent nature of evolution and how, if we were somehow able to "replay the tape" of life on Earth since its beginning, we could not expect anything like what we see today to result. That issue is beyond the scope of the Quote Mine Project but I strongly recommend Wonderful Life to those interested in the question, if for no other reason than it is a good read. For a discussion of the subsequent debate over this idea of Gould's, see Chapter 12 of Sex and Death : An Introduction to Philosophy of Biology by Kim Sterelny and Paul E. Griffiths, 1999 (Chicago: University of Chicago Press).

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/quotes/mine/part3.html

Conclusion- Rip is a plagerizer and a liar, who refuses to credit where he steals his quotes from, and continually promotes the blatant perpetuation of false information.
 

NeenerNeener

Senior member
Jun 8, 2005
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Originally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: NeenerNeener
Originally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: NeenerNeener

So I can make one simple assumption, my postulate which states:
There is a God and God created everything.
This is an assumption because there is no way to prove or disprove it.

So sorry, but your "one simple assumption" is actually two assumptions:

1) God created the universe.
2) God has existed forever (nothing created God).

Compare that with:

1) The universe has existed forever (nothing created the universe).

The "God theory" loses.


1) Light behaves like a particle
2) Light behaves like a wave

Oh no! It couldn't be right! There's duality!

Seems like you rely on your single postulate to split mine in two. I never said anything about forever or infinity. Prior to the big bang, there could have been nothing for all we know.

The whole point of this thread is the orgin of things. You don't think you can get away with introducing God, then not have to explain the origin of God, do you? Sorry, that's a no-no.

I need only explain the ultimate cause of the universe (which is: it's been around forever and nothing created it).

You take an extra step: You explain the ultimate cause of the universe as God. But then you need to explain the ultimate cause of God (that's something I don't have to do).

All you've done is moved the need for "where it all came from" back a step.

In other words, YOU need to explain the origins of the universe AND of God. I only need to explain the origins of the universe.

As to your wave-particle duality thingee, I have no idea why you've introduced it here. It has nothing whatever to do with this topic.

As I said, God loses.

If you say so. I infered that you were saying before that since Occam says that the less assumptions we make, the more correct the model will be, that because your assumption had one part to my supposed two parts that yours was more correct. I was merely pointing out that the wave-particle duality of light replaced a simpler theory and yet it seems to be more correct.

When you say:
"I need only explain the ultimate cause of the universe (which is: it's been around forever and nothing created it). "
You have no scientific evidence for what you claim (and cannot possibly). So, welcome to the world of faith.

You don't need to explain to me the whole point of the thread. I started it. This started as a thread on evolution, but mutated (pardon the word) into the more broad "origins of everything". This is fine though, because the latter helps explain the former. IMO, it's just as feasible that there was God before anything else, as it is feasible that the universe is infinite and original. You may find that, if you take a step back, that these two explanations are more similar than you originally thought. Science doesn't kill God. God doesn't lose like some silly rock-paper-scissors game. Science, at its root is philosophy.
 

rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
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Originally posted by: Riprorin
The renowned evolutionist Stephen Jay Gould, a paleontologist and educator at Harvard University wrote:

The absence of fossil evidence for intermediary stages between major transitions in organic design, indeed our inability, even in our imagination, to construct functional intermediates in many cases, has been a persistent and nagging problem for gradualistic accounts of evolution.

Liars selectively quote to try to establish their lie.

We [Gould and Niles Eldredge] proposed the theory of punctuated equilibrium largely to provide a different explanation for pervasive trends in the fossil record. Trends, we argued, cannot be attributed to gradual transformation within lineages, but must arise from the differential success of certain kind of species. A trend, we argued, is more like climbing a flight of stairs (punctuations and stasis) than rolling up an inclined plane.

Since we proposed punctuated equilibria to explain trends, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationists?whether though design or stupidity, I do not know?as admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. Transitional forms are generally lacking at the species level, but they are abundant between larger groups. Yet a pamphlet entitled ?Harvard Scientists Agree Evolution is a Hoax? states: ?The facts of punctuated equilibrium which Gould and Eldredge?are forcing Darwinists to swallow fit the picture that Bryan insisted on, and which God revealed to us in the Bible.?

Continuing the distortion, several creationists have equated the theory of punctuated equilibrium with a caricature of the beliefs of Richard Goldschmidt, a great early geneticist. Goldschmidt argued, in a famous book published in 1949, that new groups can arise all at once through major mutations. He referred to these suddenly transformed creatures as ?hopeful monsters.? (I am attracted to some aspects of the non-caricatured version, but Goldschmidt?s theory still has nothing to do with punctuated equilibrium?) Creationist Luther Sunderland talks of the ?punctuated equilibrium hopeful monster theory? and tells his hopeful readers that ?it amounts to tacit admission that anti-evolutionists are correct in asserting there is no fossil evidence supporting the theory that all life is connected to a common ancestor.? Duane Gish writes, ?According to Goldschmidt, and now apparently according to Gould, a reptile laid an egg from which the first bird, feathers and all, was produced.? Any evolutionist who believed such nonsense would rightly be laughed off the intellectual stage; yet the only theory that could ever envision such a scenario for the origin of birds is creationism?with God acting in the egg.

-Dr. Gould, May 1981 issue of Discover.

And that was in may of 1981, see what Rip does is selectively cherry pick quotes from the 50,60,70's. Only by picking science 30 years old (or older) can he attempt to establish his point. That's what happens though when you start with an answer and lie your way to a question.
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
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The only direct evidence regarding the theory of evolution is the fossil record.

According to Darwin, "...innumerable transitional forms must have existed but why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth? ...why is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain, and this perhaps is the greatest objection which can be urged against my theory". Origin of the Species.

So if macroevolution is true, where are the transitional forms in the fossil record that link species?
 

rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,475
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http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional/part2c.html#conc
Conclusion: What does the vertebrate fossil record show?

I've tried to present a reasonably complete picture of the vertebrate record as it is now known. As extensive as it may seem, this is still just a crude summary, and I had to leave out some very large groups. For instance, notice that this list mostly includes transitional fossils that happened to lead to modern, familiar animals. This may unintentionally give the impression that fossil lineages proceed in a "straight line" from one fossil to the next. That's not so; generally at any one time there are a whole raft of successful species, only a few of which happened to leave modern descendents. The horse family is a good example; Merychippus gave rise to something like 19 new three- toed grazing horse species, which traveled all over the Old and New Worlds and were very successful at the time. Only one of these lines happened to lead to Equus, though, so that's the only line I described. As they say, "Evolution is not a ladder, it's a branching bush."
A Bit Of Historical Background
When The Origin Of Species was first published, the fossil record was poorly known. At that time, the complaint about the lack of transitional fossils bridging the major vertebrate taxa was perfectly reasonable. Opponents of Darwin's theory of common descent (the theory that evolution has occurred; not to be confused with the separate theory that evolution occurs specifically by natural selection) were justifiably skeptical of such ideas as birds being related to reptiles. The discovery of Archeopteryx only two years after the publication of The Origin of Species was seen a stunning triumph for Darwin's theory of common descent. Archeopteryx has been called the single most important natural history specimen ever found, "comparable to the Rosetta Stone" (Alan Feduccia, in "The Age Of Birds"). O.C. Marsh's groundbreaking study of the evolution of horses was another dramatic example of transitional fossils, this time demonstrating a whole sequence of transitions within a single family. Within a few decades after the Origin, these and other fossils, along with many other sources of evidence (such as developmental biology and biogeography) had convinced the majority of educated people that evolution had occurred, and that organisms are related to each other by common descent.

Since then, many more transitional fossils have been found, as sketched out in this FAQ. Typically, the only people who still demand to see transitional fossils are either unaware of the currently known fossil record (often due to the shoddy and very dated arguments presented in current creationist articles) or are unwilling to believe it for some reason.
What Does The Fossil Record Show Us Now?

I think the most noticeable aspects of the vertebrate fossil record, those which must be explained by any good model of the development of life on earth, are:

1. A remarkable temporal pattern of fossil morphology, with "an obvious tendency for successively higher and more recent fossil assemblages to resemble modern floras and faunas ever more closely" (Gingerich, 1985) and with animal groups appearing in a certain unmistakable order. For example, primitive fish appear first, amphibians later, then reptiles, then primitive mammals, then (for example) legged whales, then legless whales. This temporal- morphological correlation is very striking, and appears to point overwhelmingly toward an origin of all vertebrates from a common ancestor.
2. Numerous "chains of genera" that appear to link early, primitive genera with much more recent, radically different genera (e.g. reptile- mammal transition, hyenids, horses, elephants), and through which major morphological changes can be traced. Even for the spottiest gaps, there are a few isolated intermediates that show how two apparently very different groups could, in fact, be related to each other (ex. Archeopteryx, linking reptiles to birds).
3. Many known species-to-species transitions (primarily known for the relatively recent Cenozoic mammals), often crossing genus lines and occasionally family lines, and often resulting in substantial adaptive changes.
4. A large number of gaps. This is perhaps the aspect that is easiest to explain, since for stratigraphic reasons alone there must always be gaps. In fact, no current evolutionary model predicts or requires a complete fossil record, and no one expects that the fossil record will ever be even close to complete. As a rule of thumb, however, creationists think the gaps show fundamental biological discontinuities, while evolutionary biologists think they are the inevitable result of chance fossilizations, chance discoveries, and immigration events.

Good Models, Bad Models (or, "The FAQ author rambles on for a while")

And now we come to the main question. Which of the many theories of the origins of life on earth are consistent with the known vertebrate fossil record, and explain its major features? I'll go back to the two main models I outlined at the beginning, creationism and evolution, and break them down further into several different possibilities. I'll try to summarize what they say, and whether or not they are consistent with the major features of the fossil record.

1. Evolution alone (with no God, or with a non-interfering God)

Evolution of all vertebrates by descent from a common ancestor, with change occurring both through punctuated equilibrium and gradual evolution, and with both modes of species formation (anagenesis and cladogenesis). These mechanisms and modes are consistent with (and in fact are predicted by) what is presently known about mutation, developmental biology, and population genetics According to this model, the remaining gaps in the fossil record are primarily due to the chance events of fossilization (particularly significant if evolution occurs locally or rapidly), in combination with immigration (the spreading of a new species from the site where it evolved out into different areas).
2. Evolution with a "Starting-gate God"

Evolution by common descent, as above, with God having set everything in motion in the beginning -- for instance, at the initial creation of the universe, or at the initial occurrence of life on earth -- and not having affected anything since.
3. Evolution with a "Tinkering God"

Evolution by common descent, as above, with God occasionally altering the direction of evolution (e.g., causing sudden extinctions of certain groups, causing certain mutations to arise). The extent of the "tinkering" could vary from almost none to constant adjustments. However, a "constant tinkering" theory may run into the problem that vertebrate history on the whole does not show any obvious direction. For instance, mammal evolution does not seem to have led inescapably toward humans, and does not show any consistent discernable trend (except possibly toward increased body size). Many lineages do show some sort of trend over time, but those trends were usually linked to available ecological niches, not to an inherent "evolutionary path", and the "trends" often reversed themselves when the environment or the competition changed.

Models 1, 2, and 3 are all consistent with the known fossil record.
4. Standard "young-earth" creationism

Creation of separate "kinds" in the order listed in Genesis, in six days, followed by a cataclysmic flood.

The Flood model is completely falsified, since the fossils appear in a different order than can be explained by any conceivable "sorting" model. Note that this is true not just for terrestrial vertebrates, but also for aquatic vertebrates, pollen, coral reefs, rooted trees, and small invertebrates. For example, ichthyosaurs and porpoises are never (not once!) found in the same layers; crabs and trilobites are never found in the same layers; small pterosaurs and equal-sized modern birds and bats are never found in the same layers. In addition, countless geological formations seem to be the result of eons of gradual accumulation of undisturbed sediment, such as multi-layer river channels and deep-sea sediments, and there are no indications of a single worldwide flood. In addition, the Flood Model cannot account for the obvious sorting by subtle anatomical details (easily explained by evolutionary models), or for the phenomenon that lower layers of lava have older radiometric dates. These are only a few of the problems with the Flood Model. See the flood FAQ for further information.

Creation in six "metaphorical" days is also falsified, since the animals appeared in a different order than that listed in Genesis, and over hundreds of millions of years rather than six days.
5. "Separately created kinds", but with an old Earth.

Literal creationism won't fly, but could the concept of "separately created kinds" still be viable, with the creations occurring over millions of years? This would require the following convoluted adjustments:

First, if every "kind", (species, genus, family, whatever) was separately created, there must have been innumerable successive and often simultaneous waves of creation, occurring across several hundred million years, including thousands of creations of now- extinct groups.

Second, these thousands of "kinds" were created in a strictly correlated chronological/morphological sequence, in a nested hierarchy. That is, virtually no "kind" was created until a similar "kind" already existed. For instance, for the reptile-to-mammal transition, God must have created at least 30 genera in nearly perfect morphological order, with the most reptilian first and the most mammalian last, and with only relatively slight morphological differences separating each successive genus. Similarly, God created legged whales before he created legless whales, and Archeopteryx before creating modern birds. He created small five-toed horse- like creatures before creating medium-sized three-toed horses, which in turn were created before larger one-toed horses. And so on. This very striking chronological/morphological sequence, easily explained by models 1, 2, and 3, is quite puzzling in this model.

Third, God did not create these kinds in a sequence that obviously progressed in any direction, as discussed briefly under model 3. This is not necessarily a fatal flaw (mysterious are the ways of God, right?), but it is another puzzle, another unexplained aspect of the fossil record.

Fourth, what about those species-to-species transitions? They appear to show that at least some species, genera, and families arose by evolution (not necessarily all, but at least some.) How can a creationist model be reconciled with this evidence?
1. "Minor" evolution allowed.

In this model, the species-species transitions DO represent evolution, but of a minor and unimportant variety. Note, however, that during these bursts of "minor evolution", the evolution took place in an apparently non-directed manner, sometimes crossed genus and family lines, and resulted in just the same sorts of morphological differences that are seen between the other, presumably created, groups of animals.
2. Separately created fossils.

In this model, the "species-species transitions" do not represent evolution. This implies that every individual fossil in the species-to-species transitions must have been separately created, either by creation of the animal that later died and was fossilized, or by creation of a fossil in situ in the rock. I have heard this model called the "Lying God Theory".

In summary, models 1, 2, and 3 (slightly different versions of basic evolutionary theory) are consistent with the fossil record, and go further to explain its notable features with a coherent overarching framework. Evolutionary theory has made successful predictions about fossils that were discovered later (e.g. the whale fossils), about genetic patterns, and about numerous other aspects of biology such as the development of disease resistance. Model 4 (literal young-earth creationism) appears unsalvagable, as all of its predictions are wrong. Model 5 (nonliteral creationism, with separately created kinds on an old earth) can just barely be modified to be consistent with the fossil record, but only with bizarre and convoluted tinkering, and only, apparently, if God created the world to make it look like evolution happened. In my humble opinion, this still utterly fails to explain the record's notable features or to make any useful or testable predictions. It also raises the disturbing question of why God would go to such lengths to set up the appearance of evolution, right down to inserting the correct ratios of radioisotopes in the rocks.

Okay, having blathered on about that, now I'll quit pontificating and get to the main point.
The Main Point
Creationists often state categorically that "there are no transitional fossils". As this FAQ shows, this is simply not true. That is the main point of this FAQ. There are abundant transitional fossils of both the "chain of genera" type and the "species-to-species transition" type. There are documented speciations that cross genus lines and family lines. The interpretation of that fact I leave up to you. I have outlined five possible models above, and have explained why I think some of them are better than others. You might disagree with my conclusions, and you can choose the one you think is best, (or even develop another one). But you cannot simply say that there are no transitional fossils, because there are.

As Gould said (1994): "The supposed lack of intermediary forms in the fossil record remains the fundamental canard of current antievolutionists. Such transitional forms are scarce, to be sure, and for two sets of reasons - geological (the gappiness of the fossil record) and biological (the episodic nature of evolutionary change, including patterns of punctuated equilibrium and transition within small populations of limited geological extenet). But paleontologists have discovered several superb examples of intermediary forms and sequences, more than enough to convince any fair-minded skeptic about the reality of life's physical geneology."
 

abj13

Golden Member
Jan 27, 2005
1,071
902
136
Originally posted by: Riprorin
The only direct evidence regarding the theory of evolution is the fossil record.

According to Darwin, "...innumerable transitional forms must have existed but why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth? ...why is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain, and this perhaps is the greatest objection which can be urged against my theory". Origin of the Species.

So if macroevolution is true, where are the transitional forms in the fossil record that link species?

Why do you purposely choose to lie?

But, as by this theory, innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth?" (Origin of Species, 1859).

Representative quote miners: The Theory of Evolution vs and Creation Evidence Discredits Evolution

There is no surprise here. Darwin is proceeding by his usual method of asking a question and then answering it. Creationist quote miners classically omit his answer.

In the sixth edition this appears in Chapter 6, "Difficulties on Theory", on p. 134 (in the first edition it appears on p. 172 with a different follow-up):

But, as by this theory innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth?It will be more convenient to discuss this question in the chapter on the Imperfection of the Geological Record; and I will here only state that I believe the answer mainly lies in the record being incomparably less perfect than is generally supposed. The crust of the earth is a vast museum; but the natural collections have been imperfectly made, and only at long intervals of time.

Besides leaving out the context, this is misleading in a subtler way when used for the proposition that there are no transitional forms. Darwin is not talking about the existence or nonexistence of transitionals here, but of an "innumerable" series of finely-graded transitionals linking together all extinct and existing forms. As he says later in Chapter XI of the sixth edition on page 342:

These causes [the imperfection of the fossil record, the limited exploration of the record, poor fossilization of certain body types, etc.], taken conjointly, will to a large extent explain why -- though we do find many links -- we do not find interminable varieties, connecting together all extinct and existing forms by the finest graduated steps. It should also be constantly borne in mind that any linking variety between two forms, which might be found, would be ranked, unless the whole chain could be perfectly restored, as a new and distinct species; for it is not pretended that we have any sure criterion by which species and varieties can be discriminated.

In short, the use of the quote to imply there are no transitionals misstates Darwin's argument, intentionally or out of ignorance. Darwin was not stating that there was an absence of transitionals but, in fact, stated there were "many links." Instead, he was discussing why there are not more transitionals in an easily read pattern of gradual change. As Darwin correctly noted, where the fossil record does not approach "perfection," it is difficult, if not impossible, to tell by morphology alone exactly where any particular organism would fall within such a graduated series. Thus, such an organism might be classified as a distinct species from either the original or the subsequent ones. However, such organisms, being general morphological intermediates between different forms, as in the case of Archaeopteryx, would, along with other evidence, support an inference of evolutionary change over time through common descent. The fossil record may not be easy to read, but it is not devoid of information either.

Even if the quote stood for what the quote miners claim it does, Darwin was writing almost 150 years ago, at a time early in the scientific study of fossils and when few scientists were expecting to find "transitional forms." Much has been learned since, some of which can be seen in various articles in the Archive, such as: Transitional Vertebrate Fossils FAQ, Archaeopteryx FAQs, and 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution, among others.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/quotes/mine/part2.html

 

rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,475
1
0
Originally posted by: Riprorin
The only direct evidence regarding the theory of evolution is the fossil record.

A patent LIE. Direct evidence is derived from MANY fields and unequivocal evidence is aquired from molecular biology.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
81
Originally posted by: rahvin

And that was in may of 1981, see what Rip does is selectively cherry pick quotes from the 50,60,70's. Only by picking science 30 years old (or older) can he attempt to establish his point. That's what happens though when you start with an answer and lie your way to a question.

And what's even more despicable: Rip repeats the same quote-mined paragraphs over and over again in the various threads on this topic, despite the fact that the FULL passages containing the extracted verbiage have clearly been presented to him AND IT IS IMPOSSIBLE THAT HE CAN FAIL TO KNOW AT THIS POINT WHAT THE TRUE CONTEXT AND MEANING OF THOSE FULL PASSAGES ARE.

In other words, despite the fact that Rip KNOWS that the snippets he places in his posts again and again and again GROSSLY misrepresent what Darwin, Gould, and others were actually saying in the full passages, he continues to perpetrate this intellectual fraud.

Ignorance might be a defence if this sort of thing had happened once or twice. But when full the context of those quotations of Darwin's or Gould's writings are posted such that Rip cannot possibly be unaware of their meaning, what does it tell you that he just goes right on posting the same quote-mined, out-of-context words in the very next thread on the same subject?

What it tells me is that we're dealing with a sociopath, a chronic liar, a fraud. A person whose behavior is by any objective standard beneath contempt.

Shame! Shame! Shame! Rip. True Christians lead by the example their lives, by their goodness, by their humble faith. You are in no sense of the word a "Christian". You are a pathetic little man who has utter disregard for the truth.
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,676
5,239
136
Originally posted by: NeenerNeener
Originally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: NeenerNeener
Originally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: NeenerNeener

So I can make one simple assumption, my postulate which states:
There is a God and God created everything.
This is an assumption because there is no way to prove or disprove it.

So sorry, but your "one simple assumption" is actually two assumptions:

1) God created the universe.
2) God has existed forever (nothing created God).

Compare that with:

1) The universe has existed forever (nothing created the universe).

The "God theory" loses.


1) Light behaves like a particle
2) Light behaves like a wave

Oh no! It couldn't be right! There's duality!

Seems like you rely on your single postulate to split mine in two. I never said anything about forever or infinity. Prior to the big bang, there could have been nothing for all we know.

The whole point of this thread is the orgin of things. You don't think you can get away with introducing God, then not have to explain the origin of God, do you? Sorry, that's a no-no.

I need only explain the ultimate cause of the universe (which is: it's been around forever and nothing created it).

You take an extra step: You explain the ultimate cause of the universe as God. But then you need to explain the ultimate cause of God (that's something I don't have to do).

All you've done is moved the need for "where it all came from" back a step.

In other words, YOU need to explain the origins of the universe AND of God. I only need to explain the origins of the universe.


As to your wave-particle duality thingee, I have no idea why you've introduced it here. It has nothing whatever to do with this topic.

As I said, God loses.

If you say so. I infered that you were saying before that since Occam says that the less assumptions we make, the more correct the model will be, that because your assumption had one part to my supposed two parts that yours was more correct. I was merely pointing out that the wave-particle duality of light replaced a simpler theory and yet it seems to be more correct.

When you say:
"I need only explain the ultimate cause of the universe (which is: it's been around forever and nothing created it). "
You have no scientific evidence for what you claim (and cannot possibly). So, welcome to the world of faith.

You don't need to explain to me the whole point of the thread. I started it. This started as a thread on evolution, but mutated (pardon the word) into the more broad "origins of everything". This is fine though, because the latter helps explain the former. IMO, it's just as feasible that there was God before anything else, as it is feasible that the universe is infinite and original. You may find that, if you take a step back, that these two explanations are more similar than you originally thought. Science doesn't kill God. God doesn't lose like some silly rock-paper-scissors game. Science, at its root is philosophy.


You can't really use Evolution or Occam's razor to disprove the existance of a God(s). You can use factual information to discover the nature of God, or at least what God isn't. Beyond a point science cannot make testable and provable theories. This would then be the domain of religion and philosophy. By applying Occam's Razor in such a manner, a Creationist could just as easily "prove" creation over evolution because it makes less assumptions and is simpler if God just said "poof" and the world existed than such a long and complicated process of planetary formation, abiogenesis and biological evolution.

This is what really gets to the heart of the debate IMO. I personally do not believe in God (at least not a senient/ human-intervening,) but the belief is not rooted in knowledge of Evolution. I think dogmatic people like Rip are poisoning their own religion and limiting their own understanding of their God by adhering to patently absurd ideas rather than seeing the world that is front of them. Science may be able to disprove literal Christian Creationism, but it cannot rule out all forms of God or Divinity.
As a Evolutionist, believer in the likelihood of the Big Bang, and a professional scientist, I could just as easily claim (a belief) God takes a form such as: God is the simply the embodiment of Universe, a passive summation of the total energy/matter of the universe. The universe was created from the "body" of God in the rupture of the big bang, in that way God is the creator of all things. God is eternal, because it will persist should the universe expand eternally or even if it collapsed back into the primordial singularity. Should the singularity explode again, God would be reborn.

This could be debated philosophically, but not scientifically. If Christianity cannot resolve the differences between dogmatic belief/myth and the factual world, Christianity will eventually pass on like so many other belief systems as a useful religion in favor of a new religion which is not burdened with so many internal contradictions. Keep repudiating Rip, its only your own religion you destroy.
 

cquark

Golden Member
Apr 4, 2004
1,741
0
0
Originally posted by: NeenerNeener
Originally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: NeenerNeener
Originally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: NeenerNeener

So I can make one simple assumption, my postulate which states:
There is a God and God created everything.
This is an assumption because there is no way to prove or disprove it.

So sorry, but your "one simple assumption" is actually two assumptions:

1) God created the universe.
2) God has existed forever (nothing created God).

Compare that with:

1) The universe has existed forever (nothing created the universe).

The "God theory" loses.


1) Light behaves like a particle
2) Light behaves like a wave

Oh no! It couldn't be right! There's duality!

Seems like you rely on your single postulate to split mine in two. I never said anything about forever or infinity. Prior to the big bang, there could have been nothing for all we know.

The whole point of this thread is the orgin of things. You don't think you can get away with introducing God, then not have to explain the origin of God, do you? Sorry, that's a no-no.

I need only explain the ultimate cause of the universe (which is: it's been around forever and nothing created it).

You take an extra step: You explain the ultimate cause of the universe as God. But then you need to explain the ultimate cause of God (that's something I don't have to do).

All you've done is moved the need for "where it all came from" back a step.

In other words, YOU need to explain the origins of the universe AND of God. I only need to explain the origins of the universe.

As to your wave-particle duality thingee, I have no idea why you've introduced it here. It has nothing whatever to do with this topic.

As I said, God loses.

If you say so. I infered that you were saying before that since Occam says that the less assumptions we make, the more correct the model will be, that because your assumption had one part to my supposed two parts that yours was more correct. I was merely pointing out that the wave-particle duality of light replaced a simpler theory and yet it seems to be more correct.

You misunderstand Occam's Razor. It doesn't state that the simpler explanation is correct; it states that given two explanations, both of which work equally well, you should choose the simpler one. The idea is to avoid unnecessary complications. Quantum optics works far better than classical optics, so you can't apply Occam's Razor in favor of classical optics.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,765
6,770
126
Originally posted by: cquark
Originally posted by: NeenerNeener
Originally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: NeenerNeener
Originally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: NeenerNeener

So I can make one simple assumption, my postulate which states:
There is a God and God created everything.
This is an assumption because there is no way to prove or disprove it.

So sorry, but your "one simple assumption" is actually two assumptions:

1) God created the universe.
2) God has existed forever (nothing created God).

Compare that with:

1) The universe has existed forever (nothing created the universe).

The "God theory" loses.


1) Light behaves like a particle
2) Light behaves like a wave

Oh no! It couldn't be right! There's duality!

Seems like you rely on your single postulate to split mine in two. I never said anything about forever or infinity. Prior to the big bang, there could have been nothing for all we know.

The whole point of this thread is the orgin of things. You don't think you can get away with introducing God, then not have to explain the origin of God, do you? Sorry, that's a no-no.

I need only explain the ultimate cause of the universe (which is: it's been around forever and nothing created it).

You take an extra step: You explain the ultimate cause of the universe as God. But then you need to explain the ultimate cause of God (that's something I don't have to do).

All you've done is moved the need for "where it all came from" back a step.

In other words, YOU need to explain the origins of the universe AND of God. I only need to explain the origins of the universe.

As to your wave-particle duality thingee, I have no idea why you've introduced it here. It has nothing whatever to do with this topic.

As I said, God loses.

If you say so. I infered that you were saying before that since Occam says that the less assumptions we make, the more correct the model will be, that because your assumption had one part to my supposed two parts that yours was more correct. I was merely pointing out that the wave-particle duality of light replaced a simpler theory and yet it seems to be more correct.

You misunderstand Occam's Razor. It doesn't state that the simpler explanation is correct; it states that given two explanations, both of which work equally well, you should choose the simpler one. The idea is to avoid unnecessary complications. Quantum optics works far better than classical optics, so you can't apply Occam's Razor in favor of classical optics.

Yup, when it comes to the unknown a logical person intuitively and instinctively chooses to disgard explanations that compound that unknown. If you don't know how something came into being you don't invent a solution whose being can't also be explained. Otherwise you will have to tell you that Mogogo created God and your minds aren't yet ready for that.

We ply the seven vibratory states, right?

 

piddlefoot

Senior member
May 11, 2005
226
0
0
quote.......

''This thread is intended to help dispel some of the myths about evolution. To believe in evolution, one needs a measure of faith. We haven't seen with our eyes what Darwin suggested, and there have been corollaries to the theory since Darwin lived. Time to ask yourself. What do you believe? ''


wtf .....you blind...we see darwins theory at work everyday, an exsample is the dragonfly,fast track evolution right there in front of your eyes, um thats why its called a theory and not a hypothises. Still not satisfied get a microscope and watch evolution happen infront of you, another good sample is the super bugs in our hospitals the UK has 8 new known bugs, fasttrack evolution in front of you, the question of faith is flimsy, its the only way believers of the bible can argue that science requires faith, but is that really in context, when someone refferrs to faith usually the bible is implicated though default, but the distinct difference is that the bible use faith as part of there argument or defence of creation, where as science uses evidence for facts to show us the answers, and faith just has no more meaning than patients to a scientist, to stretch the words definition a believer will say you need faith in science, and l guess you do, but science is what , a search for the truth, so over time evidence will prove your scientific faith to be sound and based on fact, where as the bibles idea is to have people bound to , in my opinion , unbelievable events, unfathamable hardship,, and an untruthfull explanation of how humans became, is suppose to be faithfully believed for ever.....
Oneday science and the bible will meet in the realm of fact, when they do there can be only one winner, for we are doomed to the next frontier if we cant work the truth of the universe......
 

dannybin1742

Platinum Member
Jan 16, 2002
2,335
0
0
Shame! Shame! Shame! Rip. True Christians lead by the example their lives, by their goodness, by their humble faith. You are in no sense of the word a "Christian". You are a pathetic little man who has utter disregard for the truth.

reread that rip,

then answer my questions you fraud
 

NeenerNeener

Senior member
Jun 8, 2005
414
0
0
Originally posted by: piddlefoot
quote.......

''This thread is intended to help dispel some of the myths about evolution. To believe in evolution, one needs a measure of faith. We haven't seen with our eyes what Darwin suggested, and there have been corollaries to the theory since Darwin lived. Time to ask yourself. What do you believe? ''


wtf .....you blind...we see darwins theory at work everyday, an exsample is the dragonfly,fast track evolution right there in front of your eyes, um thats why its called a theory and not a hypothises. Still not satisfied get a microscope and watch evolution happen infront of you, another good sample is the super bugs in our hospitals the UK has 8 new known bugs, fasttrack evolution in front of you, the question of faith is flimsy, its the only way believers of the bible can argue that science requires faith, but is that really in context, when someone refferrs to faith usually the bible is implicated though default, but the distinct difference is that the bible use faith as part of there argument or defence of creation, where as science uses evidence for facts to show us the answers, and faith just has no more meaning than patients to a scientist, to stretch the words definition a believer will say you need faith in science, and l guess you do, but science is what , a search for the truth, so over time evidence will prove your scientific faith to be sound and based on fact, where as the bibles idea is to have people bound to , in my opinion , unbelievable events, unfathamable hardship,, and an untruthfull explanation of how humans became, is suppose to be faithfully believed for ever.....
Oneday science and the bible will meet in the realm of fact, when they do there can be only one winner, for we are doomed to the next frontier if we cant work the truth of the universe......

Here we go again. More rock, paper, scissors...
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
9,634
0
0
Originally posted by: piddlefoot
quote.......

''This thread is intended to help dispel some of the myths about evolution. To believe in evolution, one needs a measure of faith. We haven't seen with our eyes what Darwin suggested, and there have been corollaries to the theory since Darwin lived. Time to ask yourself. What do you believe? ''


wtf .....you blind...we see darwins theory at work everyday, an exsample is the dragonfly,fast track evolution right there in front of your eyes, um thats why its called a theory and not a hypothises. Still not satisfied get a microscope and watch evolution happen infront of you, another good sample is the super bugs in our hospitals the UK has 8 new known bugs, fasttrack evolution in front of you, the question of faith is flimsy, its the only way believers of the bible can argue that science requires faith, but is that really in context, when someone refferrs to faith usually the bible is implicated though default, but the distinct difference is that the bible use faith as part of there argument or defence of creation, where as science uses evidence for facts to show us the answers, and faith just has no more meaning than patients to a scientist, to stretch the words definition a believer will say you need faith in science, and l guess you do, but science is what , a search for the truth, so over time evidence will prove your scientific faith to be sound and based on fact, where as the bibles idea is to have people bound to , in my opinion , unbelievable events, unfathamable hardship,, and an untruthfull explanation of how humans became, is suppose to be faithfully believed for ever.....
Oneday science and the bible will meet in the realm of fact, when they do there can be only one winner, for we are doomed to the next frontier if we cant work the truth of the universe......

How does the dragonfly demonstrate "fast track" evolution?

Dragonflys appears fully formed in the fossil record and have hardly changed to date.
 

rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,475
1
0
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Dragonflys appears fully formed in the fossil record and have hardly changed to date.

Hardly changed except:

The Odonata are known to be ancient insects. The oldest recognizable fossils of the group belong to the Protodonata, an ancestral group that is now extinct. The earliest fossils so far discovered come from Upper Carboniferous (Pennsylvanian) sediments in Europe formed about 325 million years ago. Like modern-day dragonflies, the Protodonata were fast-flying with spiny legs that may have assisted in capturing prey; their wingspan was up to 75 centimeters (30 inches). The group went extinct in the Triassic, about the time that dinosaurs began to appear.

Fossilized specimens of another group, the Protoanisoptera (family Meganeuridae), have been found in limestone at Elmo near Abilene, Kansas, USA. The Meganeuridae differed from modern Odonata in a number of ways -- they lacked a nodus (wing notch) and pterostigma (features of the wings) and were enormous compared to modern species. Fossils of these insects with seventy centimeter wingspans have been found in Commentry, France, and a fifty centimeter specimen was found in Bolsover in Derby, both in Carboniferous layers.

Though the Carboniferous specimens are the oldest fossils of this group found to date, they were not the first specimens to be discovered. The first Odonata fossils were found in sediments from the Lower Permian, over 250 million years old. These fossils are not huge monsters like the Carboniferous fossils, but belong to relatively small Protoanisopterans and Zygopterans (damselflies). The latter seem to have changed little in structure and appearance since then. However, it is currently a question of debate as to whether members of Protodonata and the earliest Odonata had aquatic larvae, as do all modern species, since no Paleozoic larvae fossils are known. Larvae do not exist as fossils before the Mesozoic. Some workers believe that Odonata adopted an aquatic larval stage during the Lower Permian, perhaps because their prey lived in aquatic habitats. In any event, several groups of Odonata existed by the Late Paleozoic, though only three members of this group survive today.

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/arthropoda/uniramia/odonatoida.html

Mind pointing out those dragonflies that have 30inch wingspans too me Rip? And those minor features like being able to fold their wings up? Why that's just rubish, right?

What a tool.
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
9,634
0
0
The only significant difference in dragflies today is their reduced size.

Some fossil dragonflies have a wingspan of 28 inches while todays largest dragonflies have a wingspan of about 7 1/2 inches.

Otherwise, dragonflies are little changed:

?Dragonflies have evolved without much alteration during this enormous period of time?a triumph of evolutionary conservatism in a world where change is usually synonomous with survival." - Robert A. Cannings and Kathleen M. Stuart, The Dragonflies of British Columbia. British Columbia Provincial Museum, Victoria (BC), 1977, p. 13.
 

rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,475
1
0
Originally posted by: Riprorin
The only significant difference in dragflies today is their reduced size.

This is a patent LIE. Their are SIGNIFICANT differences in major body functions and the early dragonflies could fold their wings up against the body (and you would know that if you didn't get all your science from creationist web sites). They were COMPLETELY different species as a result of their differences and there isn't a single modern fossil from the era when dragonflies first appeared in the fossil record.

A very general conclusion made from the theory of common descent is that life, as a whole, was different in the past. The predicted evolutionary pattern is that the farther back we look back in time, the more different life should appear from the modern biosphere. More recent fossils should be more similar to contemporary life forms than older fossils.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section5.html

Of course that's what you do right Rip, when the definition of species doesn't work in this instance you re-write the definition to fit your pre-defined answer.

Originally posted by: Riprorin
1977, p. 13.

There you go again, 28 year old citations! All science ceased and nothing more has ever been learned.