The Theism/Atheism Mega-thread Hullabaloo Extravaganza

[Cerpin Taxt]

Disorder and confusion, right from the dictionary.

I didn't ask for you to tell me how the word is used. I asked for you to tell me what the word means - in physical terms, specifically.

Why should they be "precise and elegant" on their own?

A distinct lack of inter-meddling supernatural beings to muck around with them is one reason.

But your evasion falls flat, because I'm not the one attempting to infer any facts from the stipulated phenomenon. You must explain how your inference is warranted by explaining how no other explanation suffices.

I won't be holding my breath for that one.

People born to atheist parents?

Why are you so reluctant to debate in good faith? Why so consistently evasive and disingenuous?

 

[JEDIYoda]

Why are you so reluctant to debate in good faith? Why so consistently evasive and disingenuous?

Now that is funny......you know there is no good faith in dealing with you.....that's funny!!

 

[alkemyst]

IMHO anyone that enters this kind of arena should:

1) have a good understanding of the religions discussed.

2) have a deep level of understanding in the history of the world.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Now that is funny......you know there is no good faith in dealing with you.....that's funny!!

Siouxsie Sioux sells seahorses on the she see sore, Eeyore.

 

[alkemyst]

Siouxsie Sioux sells seahorses on the she see sore, Eeyore.

I am beginning to believe more and more you take that solipsist thing to heart.

Do you think in terms that you are alone in the world and we are all just stimuli that you have created?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

I am beginning to believe more and more you take that solipsist thing to heart.

Do you think in terms that you are alone in the world and we are all just stimuli that you have created?

I'm simply returning the favor.

 

[Moonbeam]

I'm simply returning the favor.

You won't find God in proof or logical thinking. You won't find Him churches or temples. You won't find God anywhere but is the experience of the dissolution of the self in the unity of love. You know God personally by riding His wave when the eye with which you see Him is the same eye with which He sees you. In the unity of the experience of love doubt and faith fall away.

 

[PhatoseAlpha]

My personal experience says that effect is most often caused by mind-altering substances, and there's no need to bring god into it when a joint is an adequate explanation.

 

[Retro Rob]

The existence of an ordered universe is quite likely a prerequisite for life. With no ability to see into other universe, it's very much reasonable to wonder whether there are plenty of other universes out there which were chaotic, and we're simply a product of our particular one.

Hmm...I've always seen the multiverse hypothesis as only a counter to the fine-tuning argument, personally, not as something actually plausible.

 

[witeken]

Hmm...I've always seen the multiverse hypothesis as only a counter to the fine-tuning argument, personally, not as something actually plausible.

I'm not very familiar with the multiverse, but I think Lawrence Krauss once said that our current understanding of physics makes it actually quite likely that there is a multiverse.

 

[jackstar7]

To give Rob something here, judeo christian god's commandment is that people will have no other god before him. That hardly precludes the existence of other gods, it just relegates them to being #2-infinity behind this particular one.

So while in reality Rob doesn't believe those other gods exist, he can hide behind the words of the god he thinks does exist which imply that bushels of gods are out there... godding it up and what not.

Forget that he wants you to take clear and solid positions on things while he refuses to do the same. That's the very nature of debate between a religious person and an atheist. The funny part is that the atheist is typically more open-minded to the possibilities within reality and exploring their origins than the religious person who has the fallback of "god did it" for all things not deemed worthy of investigation. Not that Rob does that... but other people do.

Correct me if I'm wrong about any of my assertions about you, Rob. I'm just trying to facilitate and more useful discourse.

 

[PhatoseAlpha]

Hmm...I've always seen the multiverse hypothesis as only a counter to the fine-tuning argument, personally, not as something actually plausible.

I expect you'll find more then a few of us find the fine-tuning argument equally as implausible. Sadly, neither of us have much of a leg to stand on. But how are we to judge which is less likely?

They're both similar in that they're reasonably possible, but not something we have any ability to test. And both fit the evidence actually available, as do an infinite number of other possibilities.

Which leaves us at a point where the evidence we have simply doesn't allow us to favor one over the other. Picking out a particular possibility - whether tuning, multiverses, meta-universes with universe creation laws that favor this particular type of universe - just isn't supported by the evidence.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Agree.

Actually, I was referring to the laws of nature (I.e., gravity) and how they work so well we can set our watches by them.

All shielded from the earth by our core giving us the magnetic field. If it weren't for that, a lot more than our "electronic devices" would be fried..

We are a product of the laws of nature. The 24 hour day didn't exist prior to earth, rather because of the conditions that happen to exist on earth were measured and humans divided one rotation of the planet into 24 increments that individually we know as an hour.

It is the same has how water doesn't magically happen to boil at the nice round even number of 100C. No, the scale was built around the properties of water.

If we didn't have a magnetic field, we might end up like Mars with a thin atmosphere that has been eroded for many years of solar wind with no magnetic field to protect it. Earth is bigger and has more gravity than Mars, so maybe that would take longer, if there is life maybe it could and would adapt, maybe life would die out. Who knows. But I don't think that shows that earth was created for us more than it shows how we have evolved is simply a consequence of our planet's properties.

Humans really haven't been here very long at all when looking at our amount of time in existence compared to time scales used when talking about the universe. Think of all the limitations we have, all the things we can't do, how fragile we really are, all the ways the universe can kill us at any time. That has happened in the past, natural events that have wiped out entire species and completely changed the course of life's evolution. We've only survived for the blink of an eye so far, that can change instantly. I just don't see our planet or the universe as something intelligently designed for us.

I see us as a consequence of the natural processes of the universe, maybe just an evolutionary step in the universe's progression. I know the analogy is old, but I think it is very accurate. Being that a puddle that fits just right in a hole in the ground could consider to itself (if it alive and conscious) how the hole is just right for it, how the nooks and crannies hold just enough water to let the puddle fill the hole just right. *edit - The hole didn't get created to support that specific puddle, the puddle just happened to form there and is how it is due to the conditions that were present when the puddle formed. I know it is overly simplistic, but I think there are plenty of parallels.

 

[Retro Rob]

To give Rob something here, judeo christian god's commandment is that people will have no other god before him. That hardly precludes the existence of other gods, it just relegates them to being #2-infinity behind this particular one.

Actually, that commandment doesn't imply that other gods exist as much as it acknowledges that people will worship gods...whether they believe they're real or not.

Bottom line: Don't worship them.

So while in reality Rob doesn't believe those other gods exist, he can hide behind the words of the god he thinks does exist which imply that bushels of gods are out there... godding it up and what not.

Again, it only implies that people will worship other gods -- which is true...they will.

Forget that he wants you to take clear and solid positions on things while he refuses to do the same. That's the very nature of debate between a religious person and an atheist.

Huh? I take a clear position...my God exists as far as I believe, those other ones? I simply don't believe in them.

The funny part is that the atheist is typically more open-minded to the possibilities within reality and exploring their origins than the religious person who has the fallback of "god did it"

God did it, isn't a fallback for me...it is the explanation. This is how I see it: God created the Universe, science simply studies it and explains it to us.

for all things not deemed worthy of investigation. Not that Rob does that... but other people do.

Right, I've never done this. But since when does saying "God did it" means that you don't deem it worthy of explanation?

The facts are, believing that God did it is all the more reason to investigate -- to get a better understanding of God, for example, and how I look at it.

teCorrect me if I'm wrong about any of my assertions about you, Rob. I'm just trying to facilitate and more useful discourse.

I hope that I've cleared some of it up.

 

[JD50]

Huh? I take a clear position...my God exists as far as I believe, those other ones? I simply don't believe in them.

When you say this, you are also saying that the other thousands of gods don't exist and the other thousands of religions are wrong.

 

[alzan]

Actually, that commandment doesn't imply that other gods exist as much as it acknowledges that people will worship gods...whether they believe they're real or not.

Bottom line: Don't worship them.



Again, it only implies that people will worship other gods -- which is true...they will.



Huh? I take a clear position...my God exists as far as I believe, those other ones? I simply don't believe in them.



God did it, isn't a fallback for me...it is the explanation. This is how I see it: God created the Universe, science simply studies it and explains it to us.



Right, I've never done this. But since when does saying "God did it" means that you don't deem it worthy of explanation?

The facts are, believing that God did it is all the more reason to investigate -- to get a better understanding of God, for example, and how I look at it.



I hope that I've cleared some of it up.

Why would a given theist, Christian or otherwise, worship a deity whom they didn't believe existed?

Some theists allow for the possibility of other g-d's to exist and for people to worship them, they don't "hand-wave" them away as you and some Christians do. Do you believe that the worshippers of these other deities are doomed to an afterlife of pain and suffering because they did not worship the Christian g-d. Your answers seem to suggest that you do.

Does the Bible tell believers to study the universe and everything in it or does it say to follow G-d's commandments and to worship him/her/it? Why would a believer waste time studying it's g-d and g-d's creation when all that's required is obedience of it's dictums?

 

[Exophase]

Actually, that commandment doesn't imply that other gods exist as much as it acknowledges that people will worship gods...whether they believe they're real or not.

Bottom line: Don't worship them.

What's really interesting is that God says he'll punish people who worship other gods because he's jealous. It'd be like your wife being jealous of your imaginary girlfriends. Would have probably been a lot more effective to just say "you shall not worship other gods because they don't exist", if that was indeed the implication.

 

[Moonbeam]

My personal experience says that effect is most often caused by mind-altering substances, and there's no need to bring god into it when a joint is an adequate explanation.

Speaking personally or in the abstract. My experience tells me that the notion of no need for the experiencer is of no consequence, that no explanation of any kind is needed. One knows or one does not. One has tasted or one has not. To second guess the experience is to be out of the state of consciousness of unity and back in the world of words and duality. To be isn't thinking.

 

[jhbball]

This I am well aware of, and also what I wasn't asking, though.



What do you mean, exactly? (I'm posting, right now, from my phone and am unwilling to scroll up and read your comments out of fear of losing my place)




This requires a more lengthy response and will answer when I get in front of my PC.



This simply isn't true. I am NOT a Christian by chance -- I chose to be one officially when I was 27. That's a informed decision I made. You can say I was born in a Christian family by chance, sure...but how many people end up leaving their belief system?

Plenty of them do, and I was one of them for 10 years. I abandoned my parents faith as a teenager, came back later on.

Haha, this again? You ARE 100% a Christian by chance. You happened to grow up in a Christian household, and then revisit it later. You never made an "informed" decision (unless only reading the bible makes you informed). You simply chose the most convenient one to believe in.

 

[JEDIYoda]

When you say this, you are also saying that the other thousands of gods don't exist and the other thousands of religions are wrong.

No he is not!! Just wow......all he is simply saying is his God exists as far as he believe, those other ones? I simply don't believe in them.

I didn't say you can`t believe as you wish in even the tooth fairy.......Rob was very clear!
You on the other hand are trying to put words in his mouth!!

 

[PhatoseAlpha]

Belief in the tenets of Christianity necessarily means believing all other religions are wrong, as the non-existence of other gods is part and parcel of Christianity. Isiaah 44:6 particularly spells this out: "I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."

If you do not believe the other religions are wrong, you don't actually believe in Christianity.

 

[JD50]

Belief in the tenets of Christianity necessarily means believing all other religions are wrong, as the non-existence of other gods is part and parcel of Christianity. Isiaah 44:6 particularly spells this out: "I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."

If you do not believe the other religions are wrong, you don't actually believe in Christianity.

Exactly. When you claim that your God is the one true God you are saying that no other Gods exist. There's no way around that.

 

[Moonbeam]

Exactly. When you claim that your God is the one true God you are saying that no other Gods exist. There's no way around that.

Why? God is a realization, a state of consciousness that happens with ego death. There are millions of ways to ego death, and millions of names for the experience, depending on what the culture time and place of the enlightened person who has the experience. It's all the same thing, whether is this or that God one surrenders ones will to, or simply extinction of the self in meditation, etc. All that happens is that in a state of being in the now, thought ends and the mind awakens to love. God is when that love appears. The thing about religions are that some are better suited for different types of people.

 

[jackstar7]

Why? God is a realization, a state of consciousness that happens with ego death. There are millions of ways to ego death, and millions of names for the experience, depending on what the culture time and place of the enlightened person who has the experience. It's all the same thing, whether is this or that God one surrenders ones will to, or simply extinction of the self in meditation, etc. All that happens is that in a state of being in the now, thought ends and the mind awakens to love. God is when that love appears. The thing about religions are that some are better suited for different types of people.

If that was how everyone experienced every god there would be a lot more humility among the religious.

Also, that experience sounds like most of my nightmares.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

God did it, isn't a fallback for me...it is the explanation.

You clearly have no idea what an explanation is. Pro tip: "God did it" isn't one.

That isn't a matter of opinion, either.

But since when does saying "God did it" means that you don't deem it worthy of explanation?

Unless you can provide a reliable method for discovering how "God did it," you're simply saying that it can't be explained.