Discussion The Spanish Civil War. Who if any were the "good" guys?

[Remobz]

Hello gentlemen and ladies,

I was watching a movie on netflix about a guy who was supporting the communist faction in the war. He had live hiding in his house behind fake walls for 30 years until he finally left his house. I will post link below that explains the movie better.

The Endless Trench - Wikipedia

So, while watching the movie I felt sorry for the guy and kept thinking how evil the Franco Government side were to the communist backers. Then it struck me, I am opposed to communism ideologically and I am a devout catholic person as well. Those things alone would get me killed or sent to Spanish version of gulag if the communist won the war. In other words, my family and myself might be dead or in prison if Franco side lost.

Then again, I know the fascists were backing Franco and his army too. In retrospect, we know about Hitler and Mussolini.

To answer this question, we have to imagine we are in 1930's Spain and we had no clue how bad Hitler and Mussolini were at that time.

I guess do you value freedom of religion and are somewhat conservative in your thinking? What are your ideologies?

And ask yourself, would you love for the communist to take over your village? Or the conservative franco government?

So, who would you fight for or prefer to live under? Who were the "good" guys if any?

 

[IronWing]

The communists were only one faction opposing Franco's fascists, the others being socialists, republicans, anarchists, and the international brigades. The Catholic Church in Spain of the period was in lock step with the monarchists and fascists. Quite frankly, the Church hierarchy did much to cultivate the war through its fanatical reactionary approach to pretty much any idea of the Enlightment.

 

[Captante]

Even having some understanding of the recorded history it's sometimes tough to put a clear finger on right and wrong not having been there. This really isn't one of those times.

Given the way things worked out in Europe (and the entire world!) over the next decade after it seems pretty clear the Communists were at worst the "lesser of two evils" in the OP's choice. (I concede I might have felt differently if there)

 

[Remobz]

Even having some understanding of the recorded history it's sometimes tough to put a clear finger on right and wrong not having been there. This really isn't one of those times.

Given the way things worked out in Europe (and the entire world!) over the next decade after it seems pretty clear the Communists were at worst the "lesser of two evils" in the OP's choice. (I concede I might have felt differently if there)

That is my point. I approach the question as if I was a young man of 19 years old living in a small town or village. I have no clue about Nazi philosophy or Hitler philosophy and thinking. I am just living my life as in loyal to the Church and a conservative upbringing for the time. Then all these communist upstarts invade my town and destroy my church and preach about the communist way of life. I see friends or relatives shot or imprisoned and my church burnt down. Yes, the communists did such atrocities themselves. The communist held NO MORAL high ground in that war either.

All I know is that Franco is fighting to retake my village and get my way of life back together. If the Germans help him with weapons to do so, then so be it?

I guess it comes down to lesser of two evils. But, to determine that it would depend on my small village ideology and loyalty to my church as well. After the war, Franco deported all the Spanish Nazi types and arrested any German nazi types living there too. Would the communists if they won be so kind and accepting of the losers?

We can see examples of USSR occupied Countries after the war. Many people died in Gulags for various reasons. Or prisons by other names.

 

[IronWing]

What you're asking is, "If I was a Spanish fascist and fanatical reactionary, would I consider the fascists to be the good guys?" I would think you would.

 

[AnitaPeterson]

Holy crap... You never read Hemingway? You've never seen Casablanca? Never seen Picasso's "Guernica"?

Franco's "nationalists" were an authoritarian, fascist government, who only survived because they chose to be "neutral" during WWII. Otherwise, the country was a mess for three decades, and only recovered after the dictator's death and the return to a constitutional monarchy.

And no, the opposition wasn't just Communists... it was made of people from all walks of life (and international volunteers) who really hated fascism in all its forms.

You're also conveniently forgetting that there were also foreign supporters for Franco's side during the war... the Romanian Iron Guard sent its fighters to combat the "red menace", for instance.

 

[Captante]

What you're asking is, "If I was a Spanish fascist and fanatical reactionary, would I consider the fascists to be the good guys?" I would think you would.

Or maybe more "If was a young, naive Spanish kid and the fascists were all I knew".

The answer however is the same.... you most likely would. (and you would be 100% mistaken... Franco was a dickhead)

 

[AnitaPeterson]

Let's not also forget that the Spanish Civil War actually began with a coup d'etat.
The reactionary forces, led by general Franco, overthrew a democratically elected government, using help from Nazi Germany.
The airplanes of the German Condor Legion basically guaranteed aerial dominance over the republican forces.

How, and why would anyone, in this day and age, consider the Franco regime as "good guys"?
It takes not just stupidity, but willful ignorance.

This, folks, is how and why the world watches in horror as the swastikas flags are hoisted on American streets, 75 years after the end of the most horrible and disastrous global war.

 

[Remobz]

Let's not also forget that the Spanish Civil War actually began with a coup d'etat.
The reactionary forces, led by general Franco, overthrew a democratically elected government, using help from Nazi Germany.
The airplanes of the German Condor Legion basically guaranteed aerial dominance over the republican forces.

How, and why would anyone, in this day and age, consider the Franco regime as "good guys"?
It takes not just stupidity, but willful ignorance.

This, folks, is how and why the world watches in horror as the swastikas flags are hoisted on American streets, 75 years after the end of the most horrible and disastrous global war.

I apologize. I did some research in more depth and you made some good points as well. Point taken. No arguments from me.

 

[AnitaPeterson]

Are you seriously invoking the principle of religious freedom for early 20th century SPAIN? The country that expelled the Moors and saw the worst excesses of the Inquisition against Jews and other "heretics"? The country which forcibly exported Catholicism to the Americas, under the sword of the conquistadors? A church that conspired to the overthrow of a democratically elected government, and spread anti-democratic propaganda among the faithful?

And yet you fixate on Communists blowing up churches? And continue to use that image as your example of a breaking point for a village simpleton? As if it's an excuse?

You remind me of Trump refusing to condemn the Proud Boys because "there are bad guys on both sides".
There is no moral, ethical or criminal comparison between the worst acts of the republican forces and what the Franchists did.

 

[darkswordsman17]

Are you seriously invoking the principle of religious freedom for early 20th century SPAIN? The country that expelled the Moors and saw the worst excesses of the Inquisition against Jews and other "heretics"? The country which forcibly exported Catholicism to the Americas, under the sword of the conquistadors? A church that conspired to the overthrow of a democratically elected government, and spread anti-democratic propaganda among the faithful?

And yet you fixate on Communists blowing up churches? And continue to use that image as your example of a breaking point for a village simpleton? As if it's an excuse?

You remind me of Trump refusing to condemn the Proud Boys because "there are bad guys on both sides".
There is no moral, ethical or criminal comparison between the worst acts of the republican forces and what the Franchists did.

Don't forget that the Spanish catholic church into the fucking 90s would steal kids and traffic them.

Did you even read what I wrote? Did you even understand the question?

I did not say, go back in time machine and see who would we all fight for. I said, imagine being a 19 year old small town village teenager.

read what I posted before this. And the reds were far from the good guys either. Nobody knew how bad the fascists were back then. Imagine you are some catholic teenager and the reds invade your town and kill your friends and relatives then burn down your church. Then the Franco forces liberate your village from the reds. They ask you will you fight against the reds for revenge? You think that kid cares about Hitler and nazis? No, he would want revenge and to preserve his conservative way of life.

Anyway, I agree there were NO GOOD GUYS per say. This is after the fact and in retrospect now. Easy for us to talk when we never had to live in that environment to survive.

Did you? Because you don't seem to understand how stupid your argument is and how its all about you personally projecting your own ignorance and then demanding people agree with it, to support you wanting to support fascism for no apparent reason, other than you clearly understand that your biases because of your religion and other brainwashing meant you would have certainly joined the fascists. This entire "thought experiment" or whatever you think you're achieving is basically your brain trying to placate that aspect. And instead of you using that introspection to maybe reconsider the things that would make you support fascism, you're trying to argue with people out of your own ignorance/bias.

Lots of Spanish people knew how bad the Nazi era fascists would be, that's why they fought them. That you don't want to accept that you clearly would have had a role in such awfulness, by trying to declare that well everyone else were just as bad is just asinine. That however is not a reason to justify how you totally would've been a fascist in that era. Frankly speaking, those same things make you very likely to be a fascist in our era as well. So, are you trying to tell us something?

Maybe instead of applying your introspection to some hypothetical nonsense, you should use it to consider how your biases might make you enable awful stuff now? And consider "other sides" and not just dismiss them as being just as bad?

 

[Muse]

I've always wondered about the SC War, i.e. who WERE the good guys, and never came to conclusions.

 

[Remobz]

I've always wondered about the SC War, i.e. who WERE the good guys, and never came to conclusions.

I was trying to figure it out myself. Since, this topic I had to do more in depth research. It was not clear cut as I thought. Both sides did war crimes and had their faults for sure. I don't think any side had any moral high ground either. I mean that is like asking was Stalin more good than Hitler? Or who was the greater mass murderer, Stalin or Hitler? Kind of pointless since both were bad in their own ways.

No winners there. Both were bad in their own ways and beliefs. Both sides felt just in their cause at the time. Each side had people with some justified reason to fight for their cause.

In conclusion, no winners here. The real victims were the poor civilians that died or were tortured by BOTH SIDES. Civilians caught in the middle. Anyway, my prayers for all the dead and innocent people of that war. May we learn from the mistakes of that war as well.

I wish you all peace and happiness. I am done with this topic now. Goodbye all.

 

[FelixDeCat]

Don't forget that the Spanish catholic church into the fucking 90s would steal kids and traffic them.



Did you? Because you don't seem to understand how stupid your argument is and how its all about you personally projecting your own ignorance and then demanding people agree with it, to support you wanting to support fascism for no apparent reason, other than you clearly understand that your biases because of your religion and other brainwashing meant you would have certainly joined the fascists. This entire "thought experiment" or whatever you think you're achieving is basically your brain trying to placate that aspect. And instead of you using that introspection to maybe reconsider the things that would make you support fascism, you're trying to argue with people out of your own ignorance/bias.

Lots of Spanish people knew how bad the Nazi era fascists would be, that's why they fought them. That you don't want to accept that you clearly would have had a role in such awfulness, by trying to declare that well everyone else were just as bad is just asinine. That however is not a reason to justify how you totally would've been a fascist in that era. Frankly speaking, those same things make you very likely to be a fascist in our era as well. So, are you trying to tell us something?

Maybe instead of applying your introspection to some hypothetical nonsense, you should use it to consider how your biases might make you enable awful stuff now? And consider "other sides" and not just dismiss them as being just as bad?

Oh please. The only brainwashed person here is you.