The SpaceX Rocket called Starship thread

[William Gaatjes]

I thought it would be fun to have a thread with news and background information about the reusable rocket named starship.
Feel free to add news and gems of details.

The plan is to let the rocket engines use as fuel, (liquid) methane and(liquid) oxygen.

From this site i found this interesting fact , one should note that natural gas is just up to 96% methane (depending on the gasfield) with some nitrogen and other trace elements to make up the 100% composition :

Liquefied natural gas (LNG) | Shell Global

Liquefied natural gas (LNG) is natural gas that has been cooled to a liquid state. Learn about Shell’s growing international LNG business.

www.shell.com

"
LNG is natural gas that has been cooled to a liquid state at about -162°C (-260°F). This process reduces its volume by around 600 times, making it easier and safer to store and transport.
"
That is nice advantage.
And no hydrogen embrittlement, hydrogen tends to migrate through any metal, making it brittle over time (Seek Crystal lattice) .

For more background information :

Edit:
Forgot to mention about the 600 times volume reduction when cooling the gas down, as an example :
That is 600 liters (litres) of methane as a gas, stored inside a 1 liter (litres) milk bottle.

 

[William Gaatjes]

SpacX youtube channel :

SpaceX

SpaceX designs, manufactures and launches the world’s most advanced rockets and spacecraft.

www.youtube.com

 

[Kaido]

Starship vs. Saturn V vs. Space Shuttle size:

 

[William Gaatjes]

Starship vs. Saturn V vs. Space Shuttle size:

View attachment 118523

I read that the payload starship can carry is over 100.000kg. And that is just the first version. That is an enormous amount of weight to carry into space.

 

[William Gaatjes]

This video about the raptor engine is inspiring :

That makes me wonder if Bernoulli's principle also applies here for the rocket exhaust.
You know, small neck ("throat")after the combustion chamber with locallly low pressure and then an increase in volume , and lot's of pressure near the outlet of the exhaust :

 

[William Gaatjes]

As is mentioned, that the raptor engine runs on methane and oxygen.
So, it seems it is relatively easy to create methane from captured CO2.
Hackaday has a nice article (2021) about how to generate methane and reuse CO2.

Creating Methane From Captured Carbon Dioxide And The Future Of Carbon Capture

There’s something intrinsically simple about the concept of carbon (CO2) capture: you simply have the CO2 molecules absorbed or adsorbed by something, after which you separate the thus captur…

hackaday.com

Small excerpt from text :
"
Creating Methane From Captured Carbon Dioxide And The Future Of Carbon Capture

No Free Lunch

In light of these considerations and also based on PNNL’s own press release, it would seem clear that the ability to generate methane using this method is mostly transitional, to support the transition to low-carbon ways to power the modern world. The only likely exception to this is probably extra-terrestrial exploration, where in-situ resource utilization (ISRU) is likely to become a big thing.
One of the reason why SpaceX’s Mars-bound Raptor rocket engines are methane-fueled is due to the relative ease with which methane can be produced even on locations like the surface of Mars.
When the nearest source of terrestrial methane is suddenly a planet away, the electrical and others costs of even DACC and electrolysis of water to slowly create a trickle of methane fuel for the trip back or to sustain a colony do not seem as outrageous any more.
One major benefit of water-lean solvents like 2-EEMPA is also likely to be the more efficient capturing of CO2 at fossil fuel plants. Whether this is enough to make big players like MHI and Shell sit up and pay attention is still anyone’s guess, but it’s hard to deny the benefit of more efficient CCS at fossil fuel plants.
"

 

[William Gaatjes]

This is from the NASA (Johnson) but this episode is about : "" How to refuel in space with very low to none gravity ?
Which also applies to the SpaceX rockets when thinking about missions to the moon or missions to Mars or another planet in our solar system.

It is explained here how refueling in space is done :

 

[Red Squirrel]

I missed the launch but it does look like they did catch the booster, but lost the ship. Whoops!

https://twitter.com/x/status/1897796417634046212

 

[MrSquished]

Fucking SpaceX should be sued for billions. If NASA had this fail rate DOGE would be shutting them down, oh wait, theyre firing a bunch of them anyway! Look at the disturbance to a shit ton of air traffic - all these detours are not free, they cause a chain reaction that affects tons of travelers and costs a shit ton of money. Sue that fucking company now. Oh wait, we can't, the fucking CEO is partially running the country and doings lots of things that benefit him already!

 

[William Gaatjes]

I missed the launch but it does look like they did catch the booster, but lost the ship. Whoops!

https://twitter.com/x/status/1897796417634046212

I guess it is a work in progress.

Makes me wonder :
Perhaps re-entry problems ? The space shuttle had all these ceramic tiles, at the underside of the space shuttle.
To deal with air resistance at high speeds during re-entry. Because of the friction from the increasing air resistance. The air is getting denser.
Gravity is increasing and increasing in strength, as the SpaceX ship comes closer to planet Earth. Pulling harder with a down force on the SpaceX ship.

So that is a downward force but there is also air resistance that is increasing because of the increasing density of the air when entering from high altitude to low low altitude.
Ever increasing acceleration because of gravity. And ever increasing friction.

Heating up the SpaceX ship.
Just as the space shuttle experienced during re-entry.
i Imagine there is maybe some unburned fuel perhaps and than with a blazing hot surface while falling to planet Earth.

My guess is that the SpaceX ship needs to slow down significantly during re-entry and landing procedure to be able to handle the ever increasing friction because of air resistance, perhaps because of having not enough heat resistance.

The ceramic tiles from the space shuttle, the material LI-900.
I find it already amazing that that material, called LI-900 has these amazing properties. See video , that is a nice party trick :

Edit: typo removed and added sentence.

 

[Kaido]

I guess it is a work in progress.

Makes me wonder :
Perhaps re-entry problems ? The space shuttle had all these ceramic tiles, at the underside of the space shuttle.
To deal with heatresistance at high speeds during re-entry. Because of the friction from the increasing air resistance. The Air is getting denser.
Gravity is increasing and increasing in strength, as the SpaceX ship comes closer to planet Earth. Pulling harder with a down force on the SpaceX ship.

So that is a downward force but there is also air resistance that is increasing because of the increasing density of the air when entering from high altitude to low low altitude.
Ever increasing acceleration because of gravity.

My guess is that the SpaceX ship needs to slow down significantly during re-entry and landing procedure to be able to handle the ever increasing friction because of air resistance, by having enough heat resistance.

The ceramic tiles from the space shuttle, the material LI-900.
I find it already amazing that that material, called LI-900 has these amazing properties. See video , that is a nice party trick :

Edit: typo removed and added sentence.

I lived in Florida as a kid & was a HUGE space nut! They had a NASA guy come in to our school & demonstrate the heat tiles on the spaceship. He took a torch, lit it up, and then we got to put our hands on it after, and it was COOL TO THE TOUCH! Crazy to see that technology live!!

 

[William Gaatjes]

This is a background story about the LI-900 tiles and the insulation foam used with the space shuttle.
Those tiles are extremely fragile, and can be damaged with the push of a fingernail.
I wonder what kind of heat shield is used for the SpaceX ship.

LOSS OF THE SHUTTLE: THE TILES; Fragile Ceramic Tiles Long a Source of Concern (Published 2003)

Experts have known since early 1990's that foam insulation on space shuttle fuel tanks sometimes becomes dislodged and damages fragile ceramic tiles that make up its heat shield but considered it more of maintenance hazard than serious threat; insulation problem has emerged as likely cause of...

www.nytimes.com

Small excerpt from text :
"
Experts have known since the early 1990's that foam insulation on the space shuttle's fuel tank sometimes tore off and damaged the fragile ceramic tiles that make up its heat shield. The tiles' general fragility has kept them busy devising protective countermeasures since the start of the shuttle program.
"

 

[William Gaatjes]

I just noticed the subject on the news as well about the explosion at 150km height, inside the Ionosphere.
Maybe it would be a good idea to design the SpaceX ship in such a way that it can also glide to Earth in a passive way like the space shuttle did, as a plan B.

After all. the SpaceX vehicle is still in development.
Kind of like being able to take off and land by use of the rocket engines vertically. Like A VTOL aircraft. But also be able to land horizontally, needs landing gear.
And if there is no way to land vertically because of too less fuel or some error or failure, go into a sliding motion and land horizontally like the space shuttle always did.

 

[William Gaatjes]

They use of course radiation hardened chips in space :

A more every day explanation :
Background information about using multiple radiation hardened computers in space while still being subjected to ionizing radiation which is very bad for electronic circuits , like for example cpu and memory :
We are constantly bombarded by solar wind and even at times bombarded with solar flares. But also cosmic rays from nearby super nova's. This all also influences rockets and satellites.
Things to keep in mind. In the old days, multiple computers like 3 or 5 the same computer systems were used as a redudant computer setup.
Constantly verifying the calculations all computer systems at once. To minimize the results of bit errors because of ionizing radiation.

Silicon on Sapphire for impervious chips at large lithography scales, um scales instead of the current nm scales.
The more atoms you have, the less a single disturbed ionized atom influence is there for the whole lattice.

In the old days magnetic-core memory was used because it is almost impervious for ionizing radiation. But we are talking kilobytes of memory here and not megabytes of memory.

CPU History - Computers and CPUs in Space

Small excerpt from text :
"
Many CPUs have been used in space craft, space stations and other such probes.
Such CPUs must be highly reliable, and very durable. The temperatures in space, even
with heaters, can vary widely. The radiation that a system is exposed too can be immense.
So when designing one of these systems designers don't always use the latest and greatest
microprocessor. They use a chip that has been tried and tested. That they KNOW will work.

A CPU for use in space must first be MIL-STD-883 (usually Class M or S, ground based is B). This means it has met the over 100 tests
that the Department of Defense has developed to insure reliable operation.
These tests include: thermal, mechanical, AC electrical and DC electrical tests as well as sampling
requirements for individual wafer inspections.

Most CPUs that pass come from the center of a wafer. This eliminates edge defects and
generally makes for a more radiation resistant device.
"

 

[Red Squirrel]

Come to think of it, has anyone managed to have something that size reenter before? I imagine there is a point where it becomes next to impossible just because of the forces at play and limitations of materials. The space shuttle is the biggest thing off top of my head I can think of that has been successful at reentering but even that seemed to be pushing lot of limits.

 

[SteveGrabowski]

Fucking SpaceX should be sued for billions. If NASA had this fail rate DOGE would be shutting them down, oh wait, theyre firing a bunch of them anyway! Look at the disturbance to a shit ton of air traffic - all these detours are not free, they cause a chain reaction that affects tons of travelers and costs a shit ton of money. Sue that fucking company now. Oh wait, we can't, the fucking CEO is partially running the country and doings lots of things that benefit him already!

partially?

 

[SteveGrabowski]

Can't say I'd want to be an astronaut headed to the moon on one of El0n's death traps. Ugh I miss NASA and hate move fast and break shit techbros.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Perhaps the cause of the fault that destroyed starship, was either a micrometeorite. Or it was man made spacedebris AKA space junk. It seems that there is a rather large ring of manmade space junk out there high above planet Earth.

And then i am not even talking about all meteorites that travel into Earth's atmosphere daily.
There is recent news how spacedebris is influenced by global warming acting on the upper layers in the Earth's atmosphere, like the ionosphere , part of it being the thermosphere.

Perhaps that was the cause.

The Surprising Link Between CO2 Levels and Satellite Collisions

Climate change isn’t just warming the planet—it’s reshaping space. As greenhouse gases trap heat in the lower atmosphere, the upper atmosphere cools and contracts, reducing the drag that naturally pulls old satellites back to Earth. With satellites lingering longer in orbit, the risk of collisions

scitechdaily.com

small excerpt from text :
"
Climate change isn’t just warming the planet—it’s reshaping space.

As greenhouse gases trap heat in the lower atmosphere, the upper atmosphere cools and contracts, reducing the drag that naturally pulls old satellites back to Earth.
With satellites lingering longer in orbit, the risk of collisions and space debris skyrockets, threatening the future of satellite communications, weather forecasting, and navigation.

Rising Satellite Numbers and a Changing Atmosphere
More than 8,000 satellites currently orbit Earth at altitudes between 300 and 1,000 km, within the thermosphere — our planet’s upper atmosphere.
While space weather events like solar flares and coronal mass ejections can briefly alter the density of this region, researchers at the University of Birmingham suggest that climate change is driving a much longer-term shift.
Greenhouse gases (GHGs) play a key role in this change. In the lower atmosphere, these gases trap heat, warming the planet. However, they also transfer heat away from the upper atmosphere, causing it to cool and contract. As a result, satellites are left in areas where the atmosphere is thinner.
Less Atmospheric Drag, More Space Junk
This reduced atmospheric density means less drag on satellites, which significantly affects their lifespan. Normally, atmospheric friction gradually slows satellites, causing them to fall back to Earth over time. Without enough drag, they remain in orbit longer than intended.
This extended stay increases the risk of satellite collisions, leading to more space debris and making it harder to launch new satellites safely.
"

Other websites :

How global warming could threaten satellites, according to new study

Climate change could threaten the future use of satellites and significantly reduce the number of spacecraft that can safety orbit Earth, according to new research.

abcnews.go.com

Small excerpt from text :
"
Climate change could threaten the future use of satellites and significantly reduce the number of spacecraft that can safety orbit Earth, according to new research.
Global warming is causing space debris to linger above the planet for longer periods of time, leaving less space for functioning satellites and posing a growing problem for the long-term use of Earth’s orbital space, a study published Monday in Nature Sustainability found.
"

 

[William Gaatjes]

Forgot to mention that meteorites sometimes travel at a very speed, high velocity. The kinetic energy equals to : Ek = 1/2 * m* v^2
Where m is mass and v is velocity. As you can see that the kinetic energy increases with the velocity squared.
The impact can do considerable damage. Like having almost no mass but an incredible velocity of over 10000km/h.
So either space debris or meteorites, either moving at high velocity are nothing to laugh about.

Famous image about a little piece of material ,a few grams in weight can do at extreme velocities in space.



One can also think of bullets and rockets as an example about having high kinetic energy.

 

[William Gaatjes]

As a sidenote : Look at these great formulas that all three, are about (storing) energy. What they have in common.

Mechanical energy :
Ek=1/2*m*v^2
Ek in Joule.
m in kilograms.
v in m/s.

Electrical energy stored in a charged capacitor :
W=1/2*C*U^2
W in Joule.
C in farad.
U in volts.

Magnetic energy stored in an inductor :
W=1/2*L*I^2
W in Joule.
L in Henry.
I in amperes.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Found the nature article, that is pointed to by the news websites in post#18 from this thread : https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/the-spacex-rocket-called-starship-thread.2627776/post-41413597.


For full article see :

Greenhouse gases reduce the satellite carrying capacity of low Earth orbit - Nature Sustainability

Satellites have become integral to our everyday life, but space debris threatens the sustainability of low Earth orbital space. Greenhouse gases are complicating the problem, leading to longer orbital retention of defunct satellites and increasing the risk of collision.

www.nature.com

Small excerpt form text :
"
Abstract
Anthropogenic contributions of greenhouse gases in Earth’s atmosphere have been observed to cause cooling and contraction in the thermosphere, which is projected to continue for many decades. This contraction results in a secular reduction in atmospheric mass density where most satellites operate in low Earth orbit. Decreasing density reduces drag on debris objects and extends their lifetime in orbit, posing a persistent collision hazard to other satellites and risking the cascading generation of more debris. This work uses projected CO2 emissions from the shared socio-economic pathways to investigate the impact of greenhouse gas emissions on the satellite carrying capacity of low Earth orbit. The instantaneous Kessler capacity is introduced to compute the maximum number and optimal distribution of characteristic satellites that keep debris populations in stable equilibrium. Modelled CO2 emissions scenarios from years 2000–2100 indicate a potential 50–66% reduction in satellite carrying capacity between the altitudes of 200 and 1,000 km. Considering the recent, rapid expansion in the number of satellites in low Earth orbit, understanding environmental variability and its impact on sustainable operations is necessary to prevent over-exploitation of the region.

"

This subject is something SpaceX also constantly has to take into account with every launch and re-entry.
Spaceflight is not easy.

 

[William Gaatjes]

The problem is, the bigger the spaceship, the greater the chance to get hit.
There is probably a great equation or formula invented for to predict possible impacts. Probably with a power of X ^Y or some logarithm in the equation or formula.
Spacedebris has been an issue for decades.
We need to clean up in space.
Typical , some relatively speaking, a pretty small group of humans are the cause of : Polluting space, the sea, the air, the land. Where does it stop ?

A map from NASA about spacejunk orbiting Earth :

Space Debris - NASA

"The Universe is infiniteBut space has its limitsRockets a launchingSat’lites are orbitingExplosions in SpaceOh what a wasteFragments go flyingAnd we go

www.nasa.gov

Article from wired about space debris:

The Space Junk Problem Is About to Get a Whole Lot Gnarlier

Thousands and thousands of satellites are set to launch before 2025. Things just got real in low Earth orbit.

www.wired.com

 

[Kaido]

A map form NASA about spacejunk orbiting Earth

 

[William Gaatjes]

View attachment 119539

View attachment 119537

View attachment 119538

Are these rendered images or polished but real photographs ?

Nevermind. I see a cute little lonely droid there.

edit :
I see a cute little lonely droid there holding what seems to be Sputnik.

 

[Kaido]

Are these rendered images or polished but real photographs ?

Nevermind. I see a cute little lonely droid there.

edit :
I see a cute little lonely droid there holding what seems to be Sputnik.

It's from a cartoon called WALL-E, where humans waste the earth & then have to move to space, leaving the robots behind to clean up haha