The social system in Germany may be nice...but at least we have freedom!

Lucky

Lifer
Nov 26, 2000
13,126
3
0
Just read about their shopping hours!

Did not know this before it ran in our local paper today. Apparently stores must close at 8PM on Saturday and stay completely closed on Sundays. And the 8PM rule on saturday was just recently implemented; before you had to close at 4PM because labor unions fiercely fought any later hours.

What kind of crappy-ass government limits the hours you are able to shop? I can't imagine the stress in not being able to shop at 24hr stores or on Sundays given the job I currently have.
 

Lucky

Lifer
Nov 26, 2000
13,126
3
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Good point. :D I vehemently hate those with a passion as well, but at least those are on a local level and not national.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
labor unions have too much power in continental europe. that's why their labor system is so rigid and are ill-prepared for true globalization, where free-trade reigns supreme.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
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So everyone gets a day off? Gee that's real bad. Your freedom is an illusion. You are stressed because of the job you have, and want others to be available for you. You are enslaved by choice. Not much of a comfort. Maybe it isn't "them". If stores were closed on Sundays, then your job would change to reflect it. Don't like that arrangement? Don't move. The Germans might be talking about how American workers are forced to work 24/7. They shouldn't come here then. If the Germans want your "freedom" they can change the law.
 

Lucky

Lifer
Nov 26, 2000
13,126
3
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Originally posted by: Hayabusarider
So everyone gets a day off? Gee that's real bad. Your freedom is an illusion. You are stressed because of the job you have, and want others to be available for you. You are enslaved by choice. Not much of a comfort. Maybe it isn't "them". If stores were closed on Sundays, then your job would change to reflect it. Don't like that arrangement? Don't move. The Germans might be talking about how American workers are forced to work 24/7. They shouldn't come here then. If the Germans want your "freedom" they can change the law.


Actually, on a personal level, if even stores were closed on saturday and sunday's here I would still be required to work because of what profession I'm in (journalism). What american workers are forced to work 24/7? None. It's choice, something germans dont have apparently.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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Originally posted by: Lucky
Originally posted by: Hayabusarider
So everyone gets a day off? Gee that's real bad. Your freedom is an illusion. You are stressed because of the job you have, and want others to be available for you. You are enslaved by choice. Not much of a comfort. Maybe it isn't "them". If stores were closed on Sundays, then your job would change to reflect it. Don't like that arrangement? Don't move. The Germans might be talking about how American workers are forced to work 24/7. They shouldn't come here then. If the Germans want your "freedom" they can change the law.


Actually, on a personal level, if even stores were closed on saturday and sunday's here I would still be required to work because of what profession I'm in (journalism). What american workers are forced to work 24/7? None. It's choice, something germans dont have apparently.

They have journalists in Germany. The Germans made it their choice to be this way. You choose to do what you do. I often work the weekends, and I hate it, but that is what the job requires. It is my choice. What I am saying is that every choice has consequences. You could not shop in Germany on a Sunday, but on the other hand, people there value their time over "productivity", a hobgoblin of little minds if there ever was one. Some are inconvienced, but others get a break.
 

Lucky

Lifer
Nov 26, 2000
13,126
3
0
Clearly though many people overwhelmingly favor later hours, and sources in that article even advocate the elimination of the sunday rules. Even the retailers are favoring longer hours.

But shoppers flooded into stores around the country on Saturday evening, as Dixieland jazz bands and free champagne greeted them in some department stores to mark the first day of late Saturday shopping.

This goes to the heart of individual vs. collective "rights". If a specific union does not want to work on sundays, fine, let them do it at a company or industry level. Imbeddding it legally at the national level is ludicrous to me.

The BBC says the hours were instituted in the 1950's to protect small business and that sunday sales are not only hotly protested by labor unions, but just as much by churches who dont want people working on sunday.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,868
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Wow! That's it? Germany should be added to the Axis of Evil!

Shirley there must be something sinister going on here?
 

Tal

Golden Member
Jun 29, 2001
1,832
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0
Originally posted by: sandorski
Wow! That's it? Germany should be added to the Axis of Evil!

Shirley there must be something sinister going on here?

Die, Thread crapper, Die!

I find this topic to be an interesting and appropriate one that helped me to better understand Germany's culture. Piss Off Sandy.
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
Originally posted by: Lucky

Clearly though many people overwhelmingly favor later hours, and sources in that article even advocate the elimination of the sunday rules. Even the retailers are favoring longer hours.

But shoppers flooded into stores around the country on Saturday evening, as Dixieland jazz bands and free champagne greeted them in some department stores to mark the first day of late Saturday shopping.

This goes to the heart of individual vs. collective "rights". If a specific union does not want to work on sundays, fine, let them do it at a company or industry level. Imbeddding it legally at the national level is ludicrous to me.

The BBC says the hours were instituted in the 1950's to protect small business and that sunday sales are not only hotly protested by labor unions, but just as much by churches who dont want people working on sunday.

Shopping on Saturdays was long a tense affair, with staff struggling to cope with stressed customers battling the clock before doors closed at 4 p.m. for the weekend.

This is an gross understatement about being a "tense affair". One could easily liken the situation to physical and mental brutality. The routine went something like this: Mo-Fri 9 or 10 AM-6 PM. The smaller shops are closed for a couple of hours in the middle of the day. Every Saturday, with the exception of Langer Samstag or the first Saturday of the month, shops and stores usually closed around 12 or 1 PM if they even opened. On Long Saturday, shops and stores closed between 4-6 PM. Finally for Thursdays, if I'm not mistaken, they implemented extended shopping hours until 7:30 or 8:00 pm during my last stay in the mid-90s. Around Christmas, shopping hours were also extended on Saturdays.

If something was required at an odd hour (meaning after 6 PM), one usually made due without or visited the local service station until about 9-10 PM - if such a thing even existed in the area. For extreme emergencies, one drove up to an Autobahn service station. Even then, the comparison of available goods for sale in a typical American convenience store/service station and the German version is an extremely differentiated affair. Talk about planning ahead! Still wouldn't trade the experience for anything though.

I always had this preconceived idea that Americans were the rudest people on Earth. That was, until living through Saturday shopping in Germany. Experiencing Saturday shopping over there provides one of the finest examples of "every man for himself" known to mankind.

Additionally, I never thought I would see an extension of shopping hours in Germany during my lifetime. All I can say is wow........
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,868
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Originally posted by: Tal
Originally posted by: sandorski
Wow! That's it? Germany should be added to the Axis of Evil!

Shirley there must be something sinister going on here?

Die, Thread crapper, Die!

I find this topic to be an interesting and appropriate one that helped me to better understand Germany's culture. Piss Off Sandy.

:)

So, how exactly do the shopping hours in Germany reflect "Freedom"?
 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
0
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Tal
Originally posted by: sandorski
Wow! That's it? Germany should be added to the Axis of Evil!

Shirley there must be something sinister going on here?

Die, Thread crapper, Die!

I find this topic to be an interesting and appropriate one that helped me to better understand Germany's culture. Piss Off Sandy.

:)

So, how exactly do the shopping hours in Germany reflect "Freedom"?

In general free time is valued more in Europe than it is here. People work to live they do not live to work.
 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
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From the Sunday NY Times Week in Review. I disagree with the writer's conclusions. Having a balance between work and life sounds like paradise to me. This 24/7 workaholic lifestyle doesn't leave time to have a life.

*edit* remove adverisement

Why America Outpaces Europe (Clue: The God Factor)
By NIALL FERGUSON

XFORD, England ? It was almost a century ago that the German sociologist Max Weber published his influential essay "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism." In it, Weber argued that modern capitalism was "born from the spirit of Christian asceticism" in its specifically Protestant form ? in other words, there was a link between the self-denying ethos of the Protestant sects and the behavior patterns associated with capitalism, above all hard work.

Many scholars have built careers out of criticizing Weber's thesis. Yet the experience of Western Europe in the past quarter-century offers an unexpected confirmation of it. To put it bluntly, we are witnessing the decline and fall of the Protestant work ethic in Europe. This represents the stunning triumph of secularization in Western Europe ? the simultaneous decline of both Protestantism and its unique work ethic.

Just as Weber's 1904 visit to the United States convinced him that his thesis was right, anyone visiting New York today would have a similar experience. For in the pious, industrious United States, the Protestant work ethic is alive and well. Its death is a peculiarly European phenomenon ? and has grim implications for the future of the European Union on the eve of its eastward expansion, perhaps most economically disastrous for the "new" Europe.

Many economists have missed this vindication of Weber because they are focused on measures of productivity, like output per hour worked. On that basis, the Western European economies have spent most of the past half-century spectacularly catching up with the United States.

But what the productivity numbers don't reveal is the dramatic divergence over two decades between the amount of time Americans work and the amount of time Western Europeans work. By American standards, Western Europeans are astonishingly idle.

According to a recent study by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, the average working American spends 1,976 hours a year on the job. The average German works just 1,535 ? 22 percent less. The Dutch and Norwegians put in even fewer hours. Even the British do 10 percent less work than their trans-Atlantic cousins. Between 1979 and 1999, the average American working year lengthened by 50 hours, or nearly 3 percent. But the average German working year shrank by 12 percent.

Yet even these figures understate the extent of European idleness, because a larger proportion of Americans work. Between 1973 and 1998 the percentage of the American population in employment rose from 41 percent to 49 percent. But in Germany and France the percentage fell, ending up at 44 and 39 percent. Unemployment rates in most Northern European countries are also markedly higher than in the United States.

Then there are the strikes. Between 1992 and 2001, the Spanish economy lost, on average, 271 days per 1,000 employees as a result of strikes. For Denmark, Italy, Finland, Ireland and France, the figures range between 80 and 120 days, compared with fewer than 50 for the United States.

All this is the real reason that the American economy has surged ahead of its European competitors in the past two decades. It is not about efficiency. It is simply that Americans work more. Europeans take longer holidays and retire earlier; and many more European workers are either unemployed or on strike.

How to explain this sharp divergence? Why have West Europeans opted for shorter working days, weeks, months, years and lives? This is where Weber's thesis comes up trumps: the countries where the least work is done in Europe turn out to be those that were once predominantly Protestant. While the overwhelmingly Catholic French and Italians work about 15 to 20 percent fewer hours a year than Americans, the more Protestant Germans and Dutch and the wholly Protestant Norwegians work 25 to 30 percent less.

What clinches the Weber thesis is that Northern Europe's declines in working hours coincide almost exactly with steep declines in religious observance. In the Netherlands, Britain, Germany, Sweden and Denmark, less than 10 percent of the population now attend church at least once a month, a dramatic decline since the 1960's. (Only in Catholic Italy and Ireland do more than a third of the population go to church on a monthly basis.) In the recent Gallup Millennium Survey of religious attitudes, 49 percent of Danes, 52 percent of Norwegians and 55 percent of Swedes said God did not matter to them. In North America, by comparison, 82 percent of respondents said God was "very important."

So the decline of work in Northern Europe has occurred more or less simultaneously with the decline of Protestantism. Quod erat demonstrandum indeed!

Weber's vindication has profound implications for the next year's enlargement of the European Union, when the Baltic States, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia and the Czech and Slovak Republics will become full European Union members.

A crucial feature of this enlargement, compared with those of the 1970's and 1980's, is that the material gap between old and new members is far wider this time. In 1974, the richest old member (Luxembourg) was twice as rich as the poorest new member (Ireland) in terms of per capita gross domestic product. Today, the average Luxembourgeois is more than five times richer than the poorest new member (Lithuania).

The impact of adopting the European Union's economic and social rules is bound to be far greater for this generation of new Europeans. They should remember what happened in the 1990's to the East Germans, who initially celebrated their accession to the vastly richer West German Federal Republic, only to discover it meant unemployment for roughly a third of the work force.

This is where productivity statistics matter. Even after more than a decade of free-market reforms, productivity levels in the Czech Republic, Poland, Slovakia and Hungary are as low as one third of the French level. What this means is that unless wages in those countries are set at around a third of French levels, their workers will not be able to compete.

East Europeans are currently able to compensate for their low productivity by working longer hours. The average Czech worker does more than 2,000 hours of work a year ? a figure steadily rising since the collapse of Communism, even as working hours in Western Europe were declining. Unfortunately, European Union labor legislation will reverse this, to prevent what the West Europeans disingenuously call "social dumping" ? the competition from low-wage economies. Czechs will be obliged to work less by a combination of legal entitlements to a shorter working week, longer holidays, higher minimum wages and generous unemployment benefits when their employers go bust because of all this.

The question is how much the Czechs will care about the ensuing enforced leisure. Like nearly all the 10 new members of the European Union, the Czech Republic is a predominantly Catholic country. (The exceptions are Protestant Estonia and Latvia.) But one striking consequence of 40-plus years of socialist rule in Eastern Europe has been a decline of religious belief almost as marked as that in Northern Europe.

According to Gallup, 48 percent of Western Europeans almost never go to church, but the figure for Eastern Europe is just a bit less, at 44 percent. Meanwhile, 64 percent of Czechs regard God as not mattering at all ? a higher rate than even in Sweden. In this respect the difference between "old" and "new" Europe may turn out to be less than many Americans now believe. Enlargement of the European Union may simply confirm the eastward spread of the leisure preference in an increasingly work-shy and Godless European continent.

The loser will be the European economy, which will continue to fall behind the United States in terms of its absolute annual output. The winner will be the spirit of secularized sloth, which has finally slain the Protestant work ethic in Europe ? and Max Weber, whose famous thesis celebrates its centenary by attaining the status of verity.

Niall Ferguson is a professor of financial history at the Stern School of Business, New York University, and a senior research fellow of Jesus College, Oxford. He is the author of "Empire: The Rise and Demise of the British World Order and the Lessons for Global Power."


 

Tal

Golden Member
Jun 29, 2001
1,832
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Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Tal
Originally posted by: sandorski
Wow! That's it? Germany should be added to the Axis of Evil!

Shirley there must be something sinister going on here?

Die, Thread crapper, Die!

I find this topic to be an interesting and appropriate one that helped me to better understand Germany's culture. Piss Off Sandy.

:)

So, how exactly do the shopping hours in Germany reflect "Freedom"?


In general free time is valued more in Europe than it is here. People work to live they do not live to work.

Agreed. More Americans would do well to learn to leave work at the workplace. I don't know if our economy would handle the change well though. :)
 

GoingUp

Lifer
Jul 31, 2002
16,720
1
71
yea, I remember how frickin hard it was to shop when they always closed up so goddamn early.....
 

B00ne

Platinum Member
May 21, 2001
2,168
1
0
Originally posted by: Lucky
Just read about their shopping hours!

Did not know this before it ran in our local paper today. Apparently stores must close at 8PM on Saturday and stay completely closed on Sundays. And the 8PM rule on saturday was just recently implemented; before you had to close at 4PM because labor unions fiercely fought any later hours.

What kind of crappy-ass government limits the hours you are able to shop? I can't imagine the stress in not being able to shop at 24hr stores or on Sundays given the job I currently have.

First of all, yes it sucks

Second,it is not the Unions fighting this (well them too I guess) but funnily it is Stores owners business lobbies (big buisness)

Third, even when the laws changed most stores didnt open longer than before - because it is more expensive for them with no gain (ppl wont shop more because it open longer)

4th, the Church is a big factor working gainst opening on the "holy" sunday