The so called wise men are fools...

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sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
69,216
4,523
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Except there you are allowing for all the infections that didn't get tested and counted as 'cases', but not allowing for all the COVID deaths that didn't get counted either. Both the numerator and the denominator are going to be undercounts. If you allow for the Economist's take on US excess death figures, you need to increase that numerator by 30%, which would make your 'upper limit' closer to 2%. Granted that's an upper limit, but we just don't know yet what the true figure is. Maybe we'll never know?

The refrain about 'protect the vulnerable and everyone else carry on' has been being made since the start of the pandemic. The trouble is it was never made clear how they proposed to do that. In practice it seemed to mean 'the vulnerable can just hide away as best they can and drop out of society entirely'. It seemed to cross into a nasty Darwinian argument. Besides, it also seems to be a recipe for new variants to be produced.
Also, even with severe restriction Covid cases have threatened filling Hospitals on a regular basis. The Death Rate was not the only factor to consider, the ability of the Medical system to treat the disease and avoid higher Death Rates was even more important. Not only this, but each Covid Patient displaces some other Patient with a different ailment and treating Covid Patients is a much more stressful due to a number of reasons.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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When I say propaganda I mean of the misleading type. My post had exactly zero intention of misleading while both videos you posted in this thread were designed to intentionally mislead people.

I think I understand the limits of rage but that is neither here nor there.
I fully respec
When I say propaganda I mean of the misleading type. My post had exactly zero intention of misleading while both videos you posted in this thread were designed to intentionally mislead people.

I think I understand the limits of rage but that is neither here nor there.
I couldn't have imagined you would see otherwise and that is fine, but my post and I determine what I think is here or there or not. It is very much relevant, in my opinion.

What is enlightenment. Seems the question has been rattling around in my brain and just a few minutes ago washing my hands these thoughts came to me. And while it doesn't tell us what enlightenment is, I really hate that word, it says something about what I think is a difference in conscious awareness. Ordinary people, another disgusting term, think their job is to hate evil and do good. In this way they validate evil as a reality. The wise man accepts the evil within him offering no resistance and in that way it can't gain a purchase in him. Free on the concept that good and evil are in some cosmic battle, he is free to be as himself. Here is a Zen story of what that might look like. A zen master was accused of fathering an illegitimate child by the family of a village girl who accused him and they demanded he care for the child. Is that so, he said, and took the child. Some time later the conscious of the girl couldn't carry the guild and she confessed to her parents. They can to the Zen master and asked for the child back. Is that so, he said and returned it to the mother.

Where was his rage at being falsely accused? I know, I know, it's only a story or is it? Ask yourself if it isn't rage that defines us, that makes us who we are, that fills our ego with pleasure, our chance to unload on others what was dumped on our heads. Isn't that why we tell others to eat shit, motherfucker, you are not dumping here.

My teacher used to say, Your shit fertilizes my garden, please dump away. But he also used to say he was 99.999% sure he was OK, no self hate. He used on occasion to show us who he was, would smile and nod his head and slowly turn his gaze to the eyes of everybody in the room.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
68,794
4,680
126
The refrain about 'protect the vulnerable and everyone else carry on' has been being made since the start of the pandemic. The trouble is it was never made clear how they proposed to do that. In practice it seemed to mean 'the vulnerable can just hide away as best they can and drop out of society entirely'. It seemed to cross into a nasty Darwinian argument. Besides, it also seems to be a recipe for new variants to be produced.
I didn't get the impression it was his job to say how to protect the vulnerable. What he did seem to say as I read the link was that the money lost via sheltering the entire population would be a fraction of whatever methodology they wanted to apply to protect the vulnerable.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
10,376
5,094
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I didn't get the impression it was his job to say how to protect the vulnerable. What he did seem to say as I read the link was that the money lost via sheltering the entire population would be a fraction of whatever methodology they wanted to apply to protect the vulnerable.

Except that that argument came up repeatedly from the start. It was basically the Johnson government's original strategy (herd immunity through mass infection, particularly of the young), but there was never a good proposal for how to 'protect the vulnerable' while doing that. Sweden more-or-less followed that strategy, and failed dismally to carry out the 'protect the vulnerable' part, hence the mass deaths there in care homes.

Libertarian types kept pointing at Sweden and suggesting that method, but to me it just seemed to carry a nasty undertone of 'the vulnerable are just weak, and should hide away in seclusion and stop having any kind of life, so the rest of us can get on with the important business of making money and keeping the rents, dividends and profits rolling in for the benefit of the owners of capital'.

Anyway, that argument seems like it will never stop raging, even long after the pandemic is over. And I just don't trust your judgement about such figures, given your expressions of support for the dodgy Jungian Jordan Peterson and the even more unpleasant Ben Shapiro.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
68,794
4,680
126
Except that that argument came up repeatedly from the start. It was basically the Johnson government's original strategy (herd immunity through mass infection, particularly of the young), but there was never a good proposal for how to 'protect the vulnerable' while doing that. Sweden more-or-less followed that strategy, and failed dismally to carry out the 'protect the vulnerable' part, hence the mass deaths there in care homes.

Libertarian types kept pointing at Sweden and suggesting that method, but to me it just seemed to carry a nasty undertone of 'the vulnerable are just weak, and should hide away in seclusion and stop having any kind of life, so the rest of us can get on with the important business of making money and keeping the rents, dividends and profits rolling in for the benefit of the owners of capital'.

Anyway, that argument seems like it will never stop raging, even long after the pandemic is over. And I just don't trust your judgement about such figures, given your expressions of support for the dodgy Jungian Jordan Peterson and the even more unpleasant Ben Shapiro.
Well, as you probably know, I think the left's reaction to Jordan Peterson is almost incomprehensibly orthodox herd mentality such that what he has to say is completely beyond your ability to hear. Like me, he sees the lunacy that pervades the left and naturally tared with the warlock burning brush same as used to paint any white male. And don't let my interest in what Peterson has to say deter you from deciding I couldn't know anything else either.

You are all about hatred for the right and he is all about pity for them. He makes more sense to me. We need a new word to go with self righteous like self lefteous.

And the reason the debates will rage on is because people don't see that opposites integrate only at a higher level of understanding.

Shapiro, meh, pompous orthodox religious. Lots of wisdom in religion but it's a bridge not a be all and end at least for me.
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
32,119
20,648
136
I fully respec

I couldn't have imagined you would see otherwise and that is fine, but my post and I determine what I think is here or there or not. It is very much relevant, in my opinion.

What is enlightenment. Seems the question has been rattling around in my brain and just a few minutes ago washing my hands these thoughts came to me. And while it doesn't tell us what enlightenment is, I really hate that word, it says something about what I think is a difference in conscious awareness. Ordinary people, another disgusting term, think their job is to hate evil and do good. In this way they validate evil as a reality. The wise man accepts the evil within him offering no resistance and in that way it can't gain a purchase in him. Free on the concept that good and evil are in some cosmic battle, he is free to be as himself. Here is a Zen story of what that might look like. A zen master was accused of fathering an illegitimate child by the family of a village girl who accused him and they demanded he care for the child. Is that so, he said, and took the child. Some time later the conscious of the girl couldn't carry the guild and she confessed to her parents. They can to the Zen master and asked for the child back. Is that so, he said and returned it to the mother.

Where was his rage at being falsely accused? I know, I know, it's only a story or is it? Ask yourself if it isn't rage that defines us, that makes us who we are, that fills our ego with pleasure, our chance to unload on others what was dumped on our heads. Isn't that why we tell others to eat shit, motherfucker, you are not dumping here.

My teacher used to say, Your shit fertilizes my garden, please dump away. But he also used to say he was 99.999% sure he was OK, no self hate. He used on occasion to show us who he was, would smile and nod his head and slowly turn his gaze to the eyes of everybody in the room.
You respec what? Your WoW characters?

I understand the rage thing, I really do. I am not a zen master though so I feel rage and must vent like a normal human so it doesn't build up and destroy me. Maybe someday I will find a way to elevate past that but today is not that day.

If you think it is relevant than at least do me the favor of explaining (succinctly) how it is relevant.

I seem to remember a Moonbeam of the past who was acutely aware of the destructive nature of capitalism and the relentless competition it breeds. I'm not sure what happened to that Moonbeam because I think he could have very easily figured out who to believe when the two options are A) hundreds of scientists who have dedicated their lives to understanding disease in order to help people and B) a few scientists who have also dedicated their lives to the same thing but are equally concerned about the MOTHERFUCKING ECONOMY.

And now that Peterson has been dragged into this it isn't herd mentality and Jordan Peterson doesn't see the lunacy that pervades the left. He sees a bullshit version of the left that doesn't actually exist. It is the image of the left that has been cultivated by the right since before the oldest person still alive was born. Mass cultivated to the point that most kids these days know that liberal hippies want to destroy the world before they can even talk.

So when the latest SJW twatter feud erupts it gets attributed to the left. But it isn't the left. Depending the context it's a mix of some far lefties, a bunch of trolls both amateur and professional, and bored angsty people that might not even like politics and may even be mad about something completely different in their personal lives that just need to vent and this context just happens to be a convenient outlet. But no, Peterson, you, and millions of other Americans have just like that committed to your hard drives that "the left" is upset about some stupid fucking nothing.

"The left" is upset about Dr. Suess. "The left" is upset about Mr. Potato Head. "The left" is upset about personal fucking pronouns. And now we have to vote Democrats out of office to stop the insanity despite the fact that not one single Democratic politician has said one single thing about Suess or Potatoes or personal fucking pronouns whatsoever.

Peterson misunderstood a simple fucking law. He thinks he is fighting a righteous fight and he has convinced you he is fighting a righteous fight but he is fighting a phantom that does not exist. He is still under the impression that government is trying to force him to say specific things when it never did that.
 
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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
31,087
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I think he could have very easily figured out who to believe when the two options are A) hundreds of scientists who have dedicated their lives to understanding disease in order to help people and B) a few scientists who have also dedicated their lives to the same thing but are equally concerned about the MOTHERFUCKING ECONOMY.
Are you aware of what occurs if and when the economy severely falters?
Such a stated concern is not over profit. But lives.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
68,794
4,680
126
You respec what? Your WoW characters?
Now, now, not my WOW characters, me. I respeced myself from a character afraid to make a mistake in case someone would try to put me down such that I had to diligently scrutinize and edit everything I write to insure there are no mistakes, to one who can tolerate making an error here and there. I have enjoyed the results thereby of an old human saw: To err is human, to forgive Devine, and in this way satisfy the full range of my nature and by forthwith so proclaiming, also, the wolf entrusted to my keeping. It’s a threefer.

I understand the rage thing, I really do. I am not a zen master though so I feel rage and must vent like a normal human so it doesn't build up and destroy me. Maybe someday I will find a way to elevate past that but today is not that day.

If you think it is relevant than at least do me the favor of explaining (succinctly) how it is relevant.
I will try. Having it build up and destroy you is entirely the point. You aren’t going to destroy yourself. You are going to sail off the known world map where the dragons lurk. Your fear is the loss of self control. You will become that which is taboo, the nasty little needy thing that brought you parents to the same edge where they murdered you to spare themselves the same fate you fear. Rage is the last piece of the set of armor we wear, when fully felt it leads to unbearable grief, pity and love for that lonely broken child. That is what I love in you dank. We are all that child and the God that had to be put deeply away and hidden to escape the intolerable pain.

Such a child has thus learned to swallow resentment, avoid being spontaneous and unguarded, never show any weakness that can be exploited, to never really feel. And if that dead thing is prodded to remember here comes the rage.

Buy you are not a child anymore and you will not die and everything you fear has already happened anyway. All that we fear is to ember and thereby feel it all over again.

I am not telling you to just feel that rage when somebody is handy to beat on. A therapeutic situation of some kind would be needed. The Buddha, they say, sat under the Bo tree and felt it all. I am not enlightened in this way. I had a teacher that was. But I have experienced the sudden realization that occurs when rage become remembering. I am still full of rage because I don’t remember everything. I am not that Zen master, which, by the way is another ridiculous term.

So what I am saying is that because of the knowledge handed me by people I believe to be farther along, I have what I need to step back sometimes from self justification, that anybody out here in the world is the cause of my problems or deserves any kind of revenge I might fancy. To suffer is enormously painful because it requires that we forgive and we won’t forgive ourselves because we do not want to know we were never guilty in the first place. Every step to heal this a step that tells you you suffered for nothing and believed you did. Should’ve really knowing that really piss you off. All there is then is to die on the cross saying Father forgive them because they had no idea that all along they were forgiven. And don’t forget the rising from the dead part that comes next.[/QUOTE]


I seem to remember a Moonbeam of the past who was acutely aware of the destructive nature of capitalism and the relentless competition it breeds. I'm not sure what happened to that Moonbeam because I think he could have very easily figured out who to believe when the two options are A) hundreds of scientists who have dedicated their lives to understanding disease in order to help people and B) a few scientists who have also dedicated their lives to the same thing but are equally concerned about the MOTHERFUCKING ECONOMY.
Of the many things I have said in the past you may remember also that I have pointed out that liberals and conservatives differ in the number of things about which they have moral concerns. Also, conservatives and to a lesser degree liberals become blind when facts threaten core beliefs that give validation to their egos. They rationalize away challenging facts that would tend to cause ego shame. So the concerns of conservatives will not be your concerns 100% and they will worry about things you don't give a wit about. But all of those moral concerns they have have in the past served evolutionary survival, they helped us to stay alive, things like distrust of the other in a dog eat dog world. Selfishness is another and that easily laps over into economic considerations. Thriftiness is a virtue. The ants and the grasshopper etc. It is stupid to be wasteful of money and there is nothing wrong with using it wisely. You know this but in this or that situation you will weigh the importance of various moral concerns differently. It does not mean you or more moral or less morally committed. It does mean you have fewer moral values in the equation and conservatives will understand you better then you will understand them because they also understand justice and equality, the two biggies with liberals. They just can't focus on those two alone. This is also why you won't get Shapiro. [/QUOTE]

And now that Peterson has been dragged into this it isn't herd mentality and Jordan Peterson doesn't see the lunacy that pervades the left. He sees a bullshit version of the left that doesn't actually exist. It is the image of the left that has been cultivated by the right since before the oldest person still alive was born. Mass cultivated to the point that most kids these days know that liberal hippies want to destroy the world before they can even talk.

So when the latest SJW twatter feud erupts it gets attributed to the left. But it isn't the left. Depending the context it's a mix of some far lefties, a bunch of trolls both amateur and professional, and bored angsty people that might not even like politics and may even be mad about something completely different in their personal lives that just need to vent and this context just happens to be a convenient outlet. But no, Peterson, you, and millions of other Americans have just like that committed to your hard drives that "the left" is upset about some stupid fucking nothing.

"The left" is upset about Dr. Suess. "The left" is upset about Mr. Potato Head. "The left" is upset about personal fucking pronouns. And now we have to vote Democrats out of office to stop the insanity despite the fact that not one single Democratic politician has said one single thing about Suess or Potatoes or personal fucking pronouns whatsoever.

Peterson misunderstood a simple fucking law. He thinks he is fighting a righteous fight and he has convinced you he is fighting a righteous fight but he is fighting a phantom that does not exist. He is still under the impression that government is trying to force him to say specific things when it never did that.
We have the expression 'triggered'. A triggered person feels rage. Rage is violence. Enraged people become more enraged the more you critique their rage. Rage is a physiological response to fear, a protection against feeling pain as I described above. It will demand silence of those who provoke it. We create what we fear. The right has become dangerously deranged and that will produce the same effect on the left. I see it everywhere, the very thing you describe as insignificance I believe, is exactly how the conservatives viewed going down the Trump path would be, glorious and wonderful, America great again. There is an authoritarian left and it is growing. This forum is full of it, people who think revenge is the answer to their suffering. I speak to the things in front of me, the things I see on this forum. I see a left that grows day by day more intolerant, who can't deal in a rational manner with their pain. You have described as fringe and I get that. I see you rationalizing away this reality because your moral beliefs are at stake. You fear conservatives will win. I fear they will if the left becomes as insane as the right. The urge to succumb to that insanity is growing and I see it everywhere. The dogs of war are loosed with fear become intolerable. Without it we become what we hate because what we really hate is ourselves.

I can see what Peterson sees in the left because I can see it in myself. When it comes to killing the Nazis I lean toward 'all in'. Unfortunately, however, that would mean I'd have to shoot myself. And as a repressed fascist with with some mitigation to the repression, perhaps also I don't fear Peterson will turn me into something I already am. I am not worried his opinions will corrupt me or anybody else. He doesn't trigger me. I'm not as afraid of my own rage as I once was. As a nobody, my rage is no big deal. I am not important enough. But only if I am awake.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
14,732
10,795
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Except there you are allowing for all the infections that didn't get tested and counted as 'cases', but not allowing for all the COVID deaths that didn't get counted either. Both the numerator and the denominator are going to be undercounts. If you allow for the Economist's take on US excess death figures, you need to increase that numerator by 30%, which would make your 'upper limit' closer to 2%. Granted that's an upper limit, but we just don't know yet what the true figure is. Maybe we'll never know?
There is some controversy over the precision of "excess deaths" as it relates to a specific cause like COVID. I do not believe US deaths were undercounted by anywhere near 30%. In the US, practically everyone with COVID serious enough to cause death got a test and a hospital bed. Unlike India, where it's quite possible that deaths were undercounted by 100% or more.

I'm sure deaths here were under-counted by some amount, but it's not going to be anywhere near the under-count on cases. One study shows that 35% of all COVID cases are asymptomatic meaning they only rarely get tested. Add to that the percentage which are mildly symptomatic, a number I do not have at my fingertips but it's a lot, and those are only sometimes tested.

The refrain about 'protect the vulnerable and everyone else carry on' has been being made since the start of the pandemic. The trouble is it was never made clear how they proposed to do that. In practice it seemed to mean 'the vulnerable can just hide away as best they can and drop out of society entirely'. It seemed to cross into a nasty Darwinian argument. Besides, it also seems to be a recipe for new variants to be produced.
You mean "the elderly should shelter in place" as opposed to "everyone should shelter in place?" It sounds pretty simple to me and not terribly Darwinian. From the outset, this disease was presented, both by public health officials like Faucci and the media, as a major threat to everyone, when in truth it was a major threat to the elderly and mainly a more infectious version of the flu for everyone else. This was was possibly not the best way to frame it.

For one, beyond the business closures, it caused a panic where people stayed home, didn't buy things, and even quit their jobs out of fear of contraction. We're talking people who were 30 years old and had like a 1 in 2000 chance of dying if they even got it. Yet no one was staying home and quitting their jobs over the flu which had a similar death rate for people in that age group. Entirely because of how the media framed it.

What they could have done, instead, is frame it this way: this is a new disease which is like the flu for most of us, but unlike the flu, it's extremely deadly to the elderly. The elderly need to stay home for now and if going out is somehow unavoidable, you must wear a mask and keep your distance because the risk is extremely high.

Bear in mind that on average, the elderly are already less mobile and go out less than the non-elderly in normal times. Also, many elderly have adult children who can be a support system. My sister and I alternated buying groceries for my 80 something mother. Every week we filled her shopping list and left the bags at her door. I know that not everyone has this, but the problem you're addressing is certainly workable.

So far as new variants, yes, your point is possibly valid. More transmission = more frequent mutation. Which is why I have said this guy's position was debatable, not that I'm 100% clear he was right.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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Epidemics are bad for Economies, Shutdowns or not. There is more to Life than the Economy.
Man does not live by bread alone does not mean that man lives without bread. The economy, while not everything, is important. Any depression should tell you that. Just saying……
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
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Man does not live by bread alone does not mean that man lives without bread. The economy, while not everything, is important. Any depression should tell you that. Just saying……
Of course the economy is important, but it needs to adapt. It can adapt, but that would mean a bunch of extremely rich people will lose their ability to keep boots on necks. They will have to work once again to position themselves and we can't have that. Now, the Dr. in your first video may know this or he may just be a normal human with normal fears of a hurt economy because he hasn't yet realized this. The interviewer, however, and the woman in your second video are fully aware of this and are actively working to keep you and everyone else in a perpetual state of fear and servitude.
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
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Now, now, not my WOW characters, me. I respeced myself from a character afraid to make a mistake in case someone would try to put me down such that I had to diligently scrutinize and edit everything I write to insure there are no mistakes, to one who can tolerate making an error here and there. I have enjoyed the results thereby of an old human saw: To err is human, to forgive Devine, and in this way satisfy the full range of my nature and by forthwith so proclaiming, also, the wolf entrusted to my keeping. It’s a threefer.



I will try. Having it build up and destroy you is entirely the point. You aren’t going to destroy yourself. You are going to sail off the known world map where the dragons lurk. Your fear is the loss of self control. You will become that which is taboo, the nasty little needy thing that brought you parents to the same edge where they murdered you to spare themselves the same fate you fear. Rage is the last piece of the set of armor we wear, when fully felt it leads to unbearable grief, pity and love for that lonely broken child. That is what I love in you dank. We are all that child and the God that had to be put deeply away and hidden to escape the intolerable pain.

Such a child has thus learned to swallow resentment, avoid being spontaneous and unguarded, never show any weakness that can be exploited, to never really feel. And if that dead thing is prodded to remember here comes the rage.

Buy you are not a child anymore and you will not die and everything you fear has already happened anyway. All that we fear is to ember and thereby feel it all over again.

I am not telling you to just feel that rage when somebody is handy to beat on. A therapeutic situation of some kind would be needed. The Buddha, they say, sat under the Bo tree and felt it all. I am not enlightened in this way. I had a teacher that was. But I have experienced the sudden realization that occurs when rage become remembering. I am still full of rage because I don’t remember everything. I am not that Zen master, which, by the way is another ridiculous term.

So what I am saying is that because of the knowledge handed me by people I believe to be farther along, I have what I need to step back sometimes from self justification, that anybody out here in the world is the cause of my problems or deserves any kind of revenge I might fancy. To suffer is enormously painful because it requires that we forgive and we won’t forgive ourselves because we do not want to know we were never guilty in the first place. Every step to heal this a step that tells you you suffered for nothing and believed you did. Should’ve really knowing that really piss you off. All there is then is to die on the cross saying Father forgive them because they had no idea that all along they were forgiven. And don’t forget the rising from the dead part that comes next.

Of the many things I have said in the past you may remember also that I have pointed out that liberals and conservatives differ in the number of things about which they have moral concerns. Also, conservatives and to a lesser degree liberals become blind when facts threaten core beliefs that give validation to their egos. They rationalize away challenging facts that would tend to cause ego shame. So the concerns of conservatives will not be your concerns 100% and they will worry about things you don't give a wit about. But all of those moral concerns they have have in the past served evolutionary survival, they helped us to stay alive, things like distrust of the other in a dog eat dog world. Selfishness is another and that easily laps over into economic considerations. Thriftiness is a virtue. The ants and the grasshopper etc. It is stupid to be wasteful of money and there is nothing wrong with using it wisely. You know this but in this or that situation you will weigh the importance of various moral concerns differently. It does not mean you or more moral or less morally committed. It does mean you have fewer moral values in the equation and conservatives will understand you better then you will understand them because they also understand justice and equality, the two biggies with liberals. They just can't focus on those two alone. This is also why you won't get Shapiro.

We have the expression 'triggered'. A triggered person feels rage. Rage is violence. Enraged people become more enraged the more you critique their rage. Rage is a physiological response to fear, a protection against feeling pain as I described above. It will demand silence of those who provoke it. We create what we fear. The right has become dangerously deranged and that will produce the same effect on the left. I see it everywhere, the very thing you describe as insignificance I believe, is exactly how the conservatives viewed going down the Trump path would be, glorious and wonderful, America great again. There is an authoritarian left and it is growing. This forum is full of it, people who think revenge is the answer to their suffering. I speak to the things in front of me, the things I see on this forum. I see a left that grows day by day more intolerant, who can't deal in a rational manner with their pain. You have described as fringe and I get that. I see you rationalizing away this reality because your moral beliefs are at stake. You fear conservatives will win. I fear they will if the left becomes as insane as the right. The urge to succumb to that insanity is growing and I see it everywhere. The dogs of war are loosed with fear become intolerable. Without it we become what we hate because what we really hate is ourselves.

I can see what Peterson sees in the left because I can see it in myself. When it comes to killing the Nazis I lean toward 'all in'. Unfortunately, however, that would mean I'd have to shoot myself. And as a repressed fascist with with some mitigation to the repression, perhaps also I don't fear Peterson will turn me into something I already am. I am not worried his opinions will corrupt me or anybody else. He doesn't trigger me. I'm not as afraid of my own rage as I once was. As a nobody, my rage is no big deal. I am not important enough. But only if I am awake.
Zen master is your term, Moonbeam, not mine. Why are you using terms you consider ridiculous?

Regardless, you haven't said anything here that you haven't already said in these forums 100 times, and you certainly have not explained how it is relevant to your videos. Is it possible these people are right and the left is knee-jerk because of self hate? Of course I will acknowledge that anything is possible, but what matters is what is probable and/or likely and/or logical.

All you have offered is a possibility in the same way that it is possible you have never actually played WoW. Everyone debating you has given you evidence as to why your possible is improbable yet all you do is hand wave all that away and maintain that not only is it possible but it is likely yet you have no evidence.

You are like a homicide detective charging the first person he sees with homicide simply because that person was alive at the time of the assault. A homicide detective that did that would be ridiculed by almost everyone on earth that was made aware of it and he could turn around and call that universal reaction "herd mentality" the same way you are here.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
10,376
5,094
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Well, as you probably know, I think the left's reaction to Jordan Peterson is almost incomprehensibly orthodox herd mentality such that what he has to say is completely beyond your ability to hear. Like me, he sees the lunacy that pervades the left and naturally tared with the warlock burning brush same as used to paint any white male. And don't let my interest in what Peterson has to say deter you from deciding I couldn't know anything else either.

You are all about hatred for the right and he is all about pity for them. He makes more sense to me. We need a new word to go with self righteous like self lefteous.

And the reason the debates will rage on is because people don't see that opposites integrate only at a higher level of understanding.

Shapiro, meh, pompous orthodox religious. Lots of wisdom in religion but it's a bridge not a be all and end at least for me.
I think you are just incredibly naive about those guys.

Ergo I am inclined to be suspicious of this character you are so taken with also.

"opposites integrate only at a higher level of understanding"...you realise that's dialectics you re invoking there, right?. People I grew up around used to endlessly go on about "the unity of opposites". This is not new. Thesis, Antithesis, Synthesis.
 
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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
31,087
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What they could have done, instead, is frame it this way: this is a new disease which is like the flu for most of us, but unlike the flu, it's extremely deadly to the elderly.
I believe Delta changed that this past summer. Its mutation allowed it to replicate twice as fast inside the human body. Young adults were no longer "safe" from COVID. Their rate of serious complications rose significantly.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
68,794
4,680
126
Of course the economy is important, but it needs to adapt. It can adapt, but that would mean a bunch of extremely rich people will lose their ability to keep boots on necks. They will have to work once again to position themselves and we can't have that. Now, the Dr. in your first video may know this or he may just be a normal human with normal fears of a hurt economy because he hasn't yet realized this. The interviewer, however, and the woman in your second video are fully aware of this and are actively working to keep you and everyone else in a perpetual state of fear and servitude.
I posted the second simply because it specifically mentioned what I consider to be a left orthodox and irrational reaction to the first link. It made the same claim as I did, that as is typical of the right, the left can act not just with the presentation of scientific evidence refuting a claim but goes much farther and tries to tar and feather the messenger without regards to intention. As a person on the left, I don't like triggered irrationals on my side. They provide ammo for the right. I don't like left orthodoxy and the screaming that starts in the faces of heretics.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
14,732
10,795
136
I believe Delta changed that this past summer. Its mutation allowed it to replicate twice as fast inside the human body. Young adults were no longer "safe" from COVID. Their rate of serious complications rose significantly.
Sort of. IIRC, it didn't rise per case, actually. It was just that because delta was 2x as likely to infect, 2x more children got it, and hence 2x more deaths and 2x more complications. But the complications and death rate was not higher than for beta. Yet the base numbers for kids were extremely low. I think it's like 1 death per 10000 cases for 12 and under with both variants. Less than the flu for kids. Correct if I'm wrong but I think I read that in a couple places.

The real problem will arise if Omicron mutates into something with Omicron infectivity but beta/delta death rates, or worse. It will be bad for everyone, but a true Darwinian nightmare for the unvaccinated.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
69,216
4,523
126
Man does not live by bread alone does not mean that man lives without bread. The economy, while not everything, is important. Any depression should tell you that. Just saying……
The Economy is not Bread. Bread is a subset within Economy. We had to shutdown the Economy due to the fact that Workers needed to isolate and thus could not contribute to the Economy. Trying to maintain the Economy is what made the US especially poor at handling Covid itself.

People are more important than Profit. Always. Depressions are a unique feature of Capitalism that manifest due to flaws in its' Economic Model.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
68,794
4,680
126
Zen master is your term, Moonbeam, not mine. Why are you using terms you consider ridiculous?

Here are a few words on a subject that claims words can't explain it. There can only be fingers pointing at the moon and in English there are few words that are apt requiring the use of language you have already heard and have formed preconceptions about. I hate that no matter what language I might use, somebody will be triggered. You can't poor the tea of knowledge into a cup full of nonsense. To learn is to unlearn so it will require emptying your cup.

Regardless, you haven't said anything here that you haven't already said in these forums 100 times, and you certainly have not explained how it is relevant to your videos. Is it possible these people are right and the left is knee-jerk because of self hate? Of course I will acknowledge that anything is possible, but what matters is what is probable and/or likely and/or logical.
You determine relevancy according to your understanding of what it is. I do the same. I am not limited by what you believe. I am not a believer.

All you have offered is a possibility in the same way that it is possible you have never actually played WoW. Everyone debating you has given you evidence as to why your possible is improbable yet all you do is hand wave all that away and maintain that not only is it possible but it is likely yet you have no evidence.
It is you that doesn't have evidence. In order to know what scientific evidence is valid or not one needs a scientific education to learn what constitutes proper evaluation. One must control variables and make sure results can be repeated elsewhere, etc. In order to evaluate the potential existence or any value to mystical knowledge one would have to actively participate in some methodology that might cause the onset of some kind of altered state. I used intoxication by wine as a commonly used analogy often used by mystics. God, I hate that word mystic. Any mystic will recognize another mystic just as those who know proper scientific evidence will know who operates on that basis. This is described by this from some mystic or another: "Those who are awake in a room full of awake and sleeping people know who is awake and who is asleep."

You are like a homicide detective charging the first person he sees with homicide simply because that person was alive at the time of the assault. A homicide detective that did that would be ridiculed by almost everyone on earth that was made aware of it and he could turn around and call that universal reaction "herd mentality" the same way you are here.
One day Mulla Nasrudin rode his donkey into town sitting backward on it. The towns people gathered around and asked him why he was sitting that way. Why is, it he asked, that none of you see it's the donkey that is the wrong way round.

The wise people are the fools to we mystics. I used to be a fool. Now I am just stupidly happy. There is a vast caravan of riches out there in the darkness hidden within you filled with a bountifulness of sparkling jewels. Trust that it is there and seeking to find you as you seek it.

The plaint of the reed is for its osier bed. A Sufi saying.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
68,794
4,680
126
The Economy is not Bread. Bread is a subset within Economy. We had to shutdown the Economy due to the fact that Workers needed to isolate and thus could not contribute to the Economy. Trying to maintain the Economy is what made the US especially poor at handling Covid itself.

People are more important than Profit. Always. Depressions are a unique feature of Capitalism that manifest due to flaws in its' Economic Model.
I have no problem with your sentiment. I have only a problem with the extent you prioritize your view over that of others. I believe in looking at a lot of different perspectives and considering them without preconceptions.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
68,794
4,680
126
Sort of. IIRC, it didn't rise per case, actually. It was just that because delta was 2x as likely to infect, 2x more children got it, and hence 2x more deaths and 2x more complications. But the complications and death rate was not higher than for beta. Yet the base numbers for kids were extremely low. I think it's like 1 death per 10000 cases for 12 and under with both variants. Less than the flu for kids. Correct if I'm wrong but I think I read that in a couple places.

The real problem will arise if Omicron mutates into something with Omicron infectivity but beta/delta death rates, or worse. It will be bad for everyone, but a true Darwinian nightmare for the unvaccinated.
Looks like we may have to add the Supreme Court to the count of how many people Trump killed with his Covid policies.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
32,119
20,648
136
...

It is you that doesn't have evidence. In order to know what scientific evidence is valid or not one needs a scientific education to learn what constitutes proper evaluation. ...
This is nonsense. If this were the case nobody would be able to determine anything. Every single second of your life you take for granted the applied knowledge of millions of humans you have never met.

Additionally, it is possible to devote ones entire lifetime studying a narrow field and still be entirely wrong about anything and everything regarding it.

If we accept your statement at face value it means accepting a reality where nobody can do or know anything. Yet I know that if I destroy my phone I'll need to replace it.
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
32,119
20,648
136
Sort of. IIRC, it didn't rise per case, actually. It was just that because delta was 2x as likely to infect, 2x more children got it, and hence 2x more deaths and 2x more complications. But the complications and death rate was not higher than for beta. Yet the base numbers for kids were extremely low. I think it's like 1 death per 10000 cases for 12 and under with both variants. Less than the flu for kids. Correct if I'm wrong but I think I read that in a couple places.

The real problem will arise if Omicron mutates into something with Omicron infectivity but beta/delta death rates, or worse. It will be bad for everyone, but a true Darwinian nightmare for the unvaccinated.
What are we defining as elderly? There seem to be a lot of headlines of antivaxxers in their 40s and 50s dying from covid, and thats just the publicly outspoken ones.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
68,794
4,680
126
This is nonsense. If this were the case nobody would be able to determine anything. Every single second of your life you take for granted the applied knowledge of millions of humans you have never met.

Additionally, it is possible to devote ones entire lifetime studying a narrow field and still be entirely wrong about anything and everything regarding it.

If we accept your statement at face value it means accepting a reality where nobody can do or know anything. Yet I know that if I destroy my phone I'll need to replace it.
Did you read the link? The problem you have in my opinion is that you don't know what happens to people who can't live with uncertainty and die trying to prove they are right. You are still trying. I lost that battle and died reborn with the wisdom that an Iphone, while a handy and useful device, doesn't constitute a genuine need. That would be things like air, food, water, societal support, etc.
 

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