the SLR loses the mirror

[ElFenix]

the EVIL* camera is just around the corner

highlights:
smaller mount diameter by 6 mm
2 new electrical contacts on the mount
half the flange depth

this all adds up to smaller lenses and smaller bodies

a digital pen f, anyone?


*electronic viewfinder interchangable lens



in other news, the panasonic fz50 and the canon g9 have been reported discontinued by b&h


(obligatory where is canon's response they've gotten complacent! post)

 

[foghorn67]

Obligatory reply:
Canon's Photokina announcements haven't happened yet.


Interesting for the entry level DSLR market. Makes it easier for those who to break out from the point and shoots.

 

[OdiN]

Electronic Viewfinder = DO NOT WANT!

Why would Canon need to respond to this? I don't want them to focus on smaller bodies and electronic viewfinders and crap like that.

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: OdiN
Electronic Viewfinder = DO NOT WANT!
.

QFFT

 

[ElFenix]

:laugh: at you guys taking my sarcastic canon response line seriously


i wonder if leica will do anything with this? they've recently hired several hundred employees who are no doubt working on something. stick a rangefinder and an optical viewfinder with frame lines on top (zooming frame lines using an LCD ooooo) and you've got a compelling little product.


M4/3 is targeted at people moving up from digicams. as a secondary concern, it may complement a regular SLR (particular 4/3, as the compatibility is there). it would also be very good for candid/street photography. an OVF is not necessary for any of these uses. that said, the KM dimage A2 had a particularly excellent EVF 4 years ago. i have to imagine that some improvement must have happened over the past 4 years.

 

[ivan2]

ahem sigma DP1 ahem...

 

[jpeyton]

Berry berry interesting.

I will hold off my judgment until I see what kind of screen they use for live view. Manufacturers need to start moving to higher-pixel density screens across the board if Live View is a standard feature. At least 400k pixels (double what is standard right now).

 

[randomlinh]

I, for one, welcome this announcement. Assuming they can improve their sensor/software quickly. I reaallly would like to see a true market for the DP1 like cameras. Fixed or interchangeable lenses.

 

[996GT2]

I have both a Rebel XTi and a Panasonic FZ8, which has a 188k EVF. The EVF really isn't a bad way to frame shots, and if they could add a bit of resolution then it could be competitive with current TTL optical viewfinders. One advantage of the EVF is that it provides 100% frame coverage, versus 85-95% for most D-SLR viewfinders today.

 

[Zenmervolt]

How does it focus (contrast detect or phase difference)? Will it have the shutter lag problem that is endemic to P&S cameras?

ZV

 

[corkyg]

Defining SLR in those terms then make some of the high end P&S cameras "live view" SLRs. Examples - the Canon- S3-S% series, Nikon's P-80, and a Lumix and Leica as well.

 

[996GT2]

Originally posted by: corkyg
Defining SLR in those terms then make some of the high end P&S cameras "live view" SLRs. Examples - the Canon- S3-S% series, Nikon's P-80, and a Lumix and Leica as well.

All of those cameras lack one of the main draws of an SLR-the ability to accept interchangeable lenses.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: corkyg
Defining SLR in those terms then make some of the high end P&S cameras "live view" SLRs. Examples - the Canon- S3-S% series, Nikon's P-80, and a Lumix and Leica as well.

well, without a reflex mirror it isn't really an SLR, now is it?

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
How does it focus (contrast detect or phase difference)? Will it have the shutter lag problem that is endemic to P&S cameras?

ZV

i would imagine that any product launched at photokina would offer performance similar to an e420 or 520 operating in contrast detect af mode. without the mirror there is no easy way to do phase detect autofocus.

 

[soydios]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
How does it focus (contrast detect or phase difference)? Will it have the shutter lag problem that is endemic to P&S cameras?

ZV

It doesn't have a mirror, so it must be contrast detect. Phase detect autofocus systems in most SLRs use a submirror hinged to the back of the main mirror.

 

[Jawo]

How can it be called an SLR without a mirror, since it is no longer a single lens reflex. What you have is a point and shoot camera with interchangeable lenses.

Can't wait to see what Canon comes out with at Photokina 2008!

 

[corkyg]

Originally posted by: ElFenix
well, without a reflex mirror it isn't really an SLR, now is it?

Absolutely correct! The "R" stands for "Reflex" - which means reflection from a mirror. Without the mirror it becomes a "Through The Lens Viewfinder" camera. TTLV? :} Or, Single Lens Camera = SLC?

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: soydios

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
How does it focus (contrast detect or phase difference)? Will it have the shutter lag problem that is endemic to P&S cameras?

ZV

It doesn't have a mirror, so it must be contrast detect. Phase detect autofocus systems in most SLRs use a submirror hinged to the back of the main mirror.

I know, I was wondering if they had some new and interesting way of using the faster phase detect system now that they eliminated the mirror. The shutter lag question also stands out as something to be watched, along with battery life and sensor heat.

ZV

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Jawo
How can it be called an SLR without a mirror, since it is no longer a single lens reflex. What you have is a point and shoot camera with interchangeable lenses.

Can't wait to see what Canon comes out with at Photokina 2008!

SLRs in any mode other than Av, Tv, or M are point and shoot. i can't imagine a m4/3 camera dropping Av, TV, or M, and i can't imagine that it'd have less scene modes than what is already available on entry SLRs.

if you want to get more narrow a p&s would be a camera that has minimal access to photographic controls other than white balance (which no one seems to be able to get right automatically), flash mode and sensitivity (since you could always control that with the film you put in the camera). i can't imagine an m4/3 camera would fit into that more narrow definition, at least to start. there have been a few SLRs that fit into that definition.

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
I know, I was wondering if they had some new and interesting way of using the faster phase detect system now that they eliminated the mirror. The shutter lag question also stands out as something to be watched, along with battery life and sensor heat.

ZV

shutter lag shouldn't be any worse than on an SLR. with no mirror it could even be faster.

they could use an active autofocus.

 

[magomago]

intereting....so is thise something the size of a canon A series with a massively larger sensor?

SLR, P&S whatever....i think the lines are becoming blurred. people tend to view SLR as having that mirror and a larger sensor. But now olympus is bringing us a larger sensor without it. I wonder if one day we'll have FF sensor inside something the size of an SD600

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
I know, I was wondering if they had some new and interesting way of using the faster phase detect system now that they eliminated the mirror. The shutter lag question also stands out as something to be watched, along with battery life and sensor heat.

ZV

shutter lag shouldn't be any worse than on an SLR. with no mirror it could even be faster.

they could use an active autofocus.

Then why is shutter lag so bad on P&S cameras? I'm assuming that they will have to use electronic gating for the shutter in order to provide live view from the main sensor which, as I understood it, was what caused the shutter lag.

Active AF is possible, but it severely restricts available focus points (and suffers parallax issues depending on distance) as well as presenting difficulties when shooting through glass or other transparent objects.

I'm not saying any of this to run the camera down. Olympus has a fantastic history of innovative solutions and I'm genuinely interested to see how they managed this one, since I am sure they've thought about these issues too.

The only problem I can see with it, from a marketing standpoint, is that the new lenses will not fit on existing 4/3 cameras. I can definitely see these attracting P&S users, but once transitioned to a Micro 4/3 camera, there's not much incentive to upgrade to a 4/3 camera since all of the Micro 4/3 lenses you've just bought won't work on the larger 4/3 system. Micro 4/3 will not work as a means of leading people into 4/3. I can see a lot of 4/3 people adding a Micro 4/3 camera to their bag, but I don't see it moving in the other direction. Then again, I've been wrong (a lot) before.

ZV

 

[jpeyton]

I don't think Micro 4/3rds is a gateway product or an entry level item.

If you look at Olympus' financial picture, you'll see that they're hurting pretty badly. Sales and profits are way down.

This is an attempt for them to really innovate and create a new market segment where they have far less competition. The problem with 4/3rds is that it was smaller, but not small enough to sway people. Micro 4/3rds will be significantly smaller, and the quality will be much higher than P&S digicams but below that of full size DSLRs.

 

[magomago]

do you think it will sway people? if it is small enough, i'd rather carry one + a walk around lense as opposed to a tiny sensor p&s.

 

[Heidfirst]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
I don't think Micro 4/3rds is a gateway product or an entry level item.
icro 4/3rds will be significantly smaller, and the quality will be much higher than P&S digicams but below that of full size DSLRs.

if it looks like being successful (assuming that another company haven't already been working on similar already) how long before we see an equivalent from another comapny using an APS-C sensor?

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Heidfirst

Originally posted by: jpeyton
I don't think Micro 4/3rds is a gateway product or an entry level item.
icro 4/3rds will be significantly smaller, and the quality will be much higher than P&S digicams but below that of full size DSLRs.

if it looks like being successful (assuming that another company haven't already been working on similar already) how long before we see an equivalent from another comapny using an APS-C sensor?

I'd venture a guess on Sony trying to get into that market fairly quickly if it looks like a money maker. This is based on the A350 and A300. Sony implemented a Live View to appeal mainly to former P&S users, which, I think, means they're after this same market in a different way. If Olympus' way looks better, I'll bet that Sony follows them.

I think that Canon might do it just for technological bragging rights and to be able say that they have a top-level camera in all segments.

ZV

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: Heidfirst

Originally posted by: jpeyton
I don't think Micro 4/3rds is a gateway product or an entry level item.
icro 4/3rds will be significantly smaller, and the quality will be much higher than P&S digicams but below that of full size DSLRs.

if it looks like being successful (assuming that another company haven't already been working on similar already) how long before we see an equivalent from another comapny using an APS-C sensor?

Depends on the company you're talking about, and the amount of market-share EVIL grabs. Interchangeable lens cameras is where the money is at right now; P&S digicam sales are down, and so are margins.

Olympus isn't really a major player in the DSLR market, and the company has a knack for innovation (dust removal, live view); something like this is right up their alley.

Canon and Nikon have enormous shares of the DSLR market and probably won't pay attention unless the market shifts towards EVIL cameras and they're forced to follow. They might come out with fixed-lens APS-C cameras so they don't have to develop an entirely new lineup of interchangeable lenses for an EVIL camera.

On one side, you have a market that has a pretty distinct idea of what a interchangeable lens camera should look like. Modern DSLR bodies are just evolved film SLR bodies. Lenses have stayed roughly the same. The digital revolution has made a lot of things smaller, but we didn't really see that with the DSLR market. Maybe it's because DSLRs started as a professional product and only within the last 4 years have become mainstream. Maybe it's for backwards compatibility with older lenses. Maybe people are just comfortable with what they already know.

EVIL cameras will be limited to the low-end of the market unless some new sensor technology makes a significant technological leap. Right now, a bigger sensor and a bigger lens means better light gathering properties, which produces a better picture.