The Savior-based Economy!

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rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
1. Written down assets aren't always written down because of credit losses. By and large a huge portion of the current losses are due to liquidity driven interest rates. If fewer people want to buy assets the demand is down, thus, the price (interest rate) charged goes up. Since that liquidity discount is high the price of the securities goes down.

For example, if you have a $100 bond with a weighted average life of 10 years but the interest rate chaged by the market is 9%, where the bond was originally priced at 5%, that means that the bond is now actually worth ~$60.

Now, should the bond be sold NOW because of a temporary liquidity constraint? If it was sold and the buying person made $40, who would that be? Who would buy it?

Ohh, that's right, hedge funds, rich people. So, essentially, you're willing to utterly destroy the investors of the banks (keep in mind, it's largely institutional, so your 401k will be hurt), just so you can see the market "fix" itself? Then what about lending? Since the banks fall who will provide it? Nobody else has the capacity to do so right now, nor the infrastructure. The liquidity premium will skyrocket and successive waves of problems will occur.

2. TALF is not the Son of TARP. It's a completely different situation where the banks will purchase securitizations from issuers but only be able to pledge them for 75-95 cents on the dollar to the Fed. The 5-25 cents is a first-loss piece that the banks take the risk for. It enures directly to the borrower's benefit, as it will probably jump start liquidity and start lending again.

I don't think you can put the losses simply on liquidity. There are many assets went down because their rating plummeted, and people found out that S&P/Moodys did a $hit job rating those assets in the first place. Many people also realize now that many assets are too complex to be valued, and no one will touch it unless those assets can be valued/rated properly. Those assets were simply priced wrong in the first place.

Those losses are permanent and not liquidity related. Yes 401k and many people's savig will be hurt if we let market determine the price and have banks sell those assets off instead of government intervention. But it is what it is, a bad investment on people's part (not necessary bad decision, just bad luck but $hit happens), and why should every single American taxpayer pay for certain people's bad investment?
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,914
2,359
126
Originally posted by: chess9

I fail to understand your niggling insistance, but I'd suggest you think about the history of these people:

1. Blacks;
2. Women;
3. Irish;
4. Jews;
5. Chinese;
6. Hispanics;
7. Indians.

Many fortunes have been made on the backs of Americans and immigrants. It's still happening in many industries, and in this economy it will only get worse.

If you think otherwise, you are a fool.

-Robert


Alright. I guess a vague answer is all you have.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Part of the problem, I think, is that the New Admin has been unwilling, so far, to just step in and nationalize the failing financial institutions. Sweden did so quite successfully in the early 90's.

The problem, for now, is that every speculative peak is followed by a trough. True market value is regained only when the price of whatever it is rises from there to equilibrium, a sustainable level. If the securities in question are sold at trough values, it won't save the banks, and will, unfortunately, drag a lot of otherwise innocent debtors under with them. It's a direct consequence of over-leverage, and of allowing certain kinds of securities to be claimed as assets in the first place. If the govt steps in and runs the banks for a time, until that equilibrium is reached, then they banks can be sold back into private hands at a fair price, minimizing losses to the taxpayers. If the govt does nothing, losses to the taxpayers, both direct and indirect, will be much, much larger, basically collapsing credit entirely...

One of the advantages of nationalization is that the banks can be dismembered, sold off in pieces, doing away with the whole "too big to let it fail" meme while we're at it... The insurance component becomes, you know, an insurance company, and the banking and stockbrokerage components become discreet entities, as well... even finer granularity can be achieved by breaking the constituent parts into state or regional entities...
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Chess, More on the 'already failed' meme from Wolf@FT, no rightwing hack, but a serious economic writer says: Obama is beset by "three arbitrary, self-imposed constraints: no nationalisation; no losses for bondholders; and no more money from Congress" and will most certainly fail because of this and faith based hope.

Read it all.

Why Obama?s new Tarp will fail to rescue the banks

By Martin Wolf

Published: February 10 2009

Has Barack Obama?s presidency already failed? In normal times, this would be a ludicrous question. But these are not normal times. They are times of great danger. Today, the new US administration can disown responsibility for its inheritance; tomorrow, it will own it. Today, it can offer solutions; tomorrow it will have become the problem. Today, it is in control of events; tomorrow, events will take control of it. Doing too little is now far riskier than doing too much. If he fails to act decisively, the president risks being overwhelmed, like his predecessor. The costs to the US and the world of another failed presidency do not bear contemplating.

What is needed? The answer is: focus and ferocity. If Mr Obama does not fix this crisis, all he hopes from his presidency will be lost. If he does, he can reshape the agenda. Hoping for the best is foolish. He should expect the worst and act accordingly.

Yet hoping for the best is what one sees in the stimulus programme and ? so far as I can judge from Tuesday?s sketchy announcement by Tim Geithner, Treasury secretary ? also in the new plans for fixing the banking system. I commented on the former last week. I would merely add that it is extraordinary that a popular new president, confronting a once-in-80-years? economic crisis, has let Congress shape the outcome.

The banking programme seems to be yet another child of the failed interventions of the past one and a half years: optimistic and indecisive. If this ?progeny of the troubled asset relief programme? fails, Mr Obama?s credibility will be ruined. Now is the time for action that seems close to certain to resolve the problem; this, however, does not seem to be it.

All along two contrasting views have been held on what ails the financial system. The first is that this is essentially a panic. The second is that this is a problem of insolvency.

Under the first view, the prices of a defined set of ?toxic assets? have been driven below their long-run value and in some cases have become impossible to sell. The solution, many suggest, is for governments to make a market, buy assets or insure banks against losses. This was the rationale for the original Tarp and the ?super-SIV (special investment vehicle)? proposed by Henry (Hank) Paulson, the previous Treasury secretary, in 2007.

Under the second view, a sizeable proportion of financial institutions are insolvent: their assets are, under plausible assumptions, worth less than their liabilities. The International Monetary Fund argues that potential losses on US-originated credit assets alone are now $2,200bn (?1,700bn, £1,500bn), up from $1,400bn just last October. This is almost identical to the latest estimates from Goldman Sachs. In recent comments to the Financial Times, Nouriel Roubini of RGE Monitor and the Stern School of New York University estimates peak losses on US-generated assets at $3,600bn. Fortunately for the US, half of these losses will fall abroad. But, the rest of the world will strike back: as the world economy implodes, huge losses abroad ? on sovereign, housing and corporate debt ? will surely fall on US institutions, with dire effects.

Personally, I have little doubt that the second view is correct and, as the world economy deteriorates, will become ever more so. But this is not the heart of the matter. That is whether, in the presence of such uncertainty, it can be right to base policy on hoping for the best. The answer is clear: rational policymakers must assume the worst. If this proved pessimistic, they would end up with an over-capitalised financial system. If the optimistic choice turned out to be wrong, they would have zombie banks and a discredited government. This choice is surely a ?no brainer?.

The new plan seems to make sense if and only if the principal problem is illiquidity. Offering guarantees and buying some portion of the toxic assets, while limiting new capital injections to less than the $350bn left in the Tarp, cannot deal with the insolvency problem identified by informed observers. Indeed, any toxic asset purchase or guarantee programme must be an ineffective, inefficient and inequitable way to rescue inadequately capitalised financial institutions: ineffective, because the government must buy vast amounts of doubtful assets at excessive prices or provide over-generous guarantees, to render insolvent banks solvent; inefficient, because big capital injections or conversion of debt into equity are better ways to recapitalise banks; and inequitable, because big subsidies would go to failed institutions and private buyers of bad assets.

Why then is the administration making what appears to be a blunder? It may be that it is hoping for the best. But it also seems it has set itself the wrong question. It has not asked what needs to be done to be sure of a solution. It has asked itself, instead, what is the best it can do given three arbitrary, self-imposed constraints: no nationalisation; no losses for bondholders; and no more money from Congress. Yet why does a new administration, confronting a huge crisis, not try to change the terms of debate? This timidity is depressing. Trying to make up for this mistake by imposing pettifogging conditions on assisted institutions is more likely to compound the error than to reduce it.

Assume that the problem is insolvency and the modest market value of US commercial banks (about $400bn) derives from government support (see charts). Assume, too, that it is impossible to raise large amounts of private capital today. Then there has to be recapitalisation in one of the two ways indicated above. Both have disadvantages: government recapitalisation is a bail-out of creditors and involves temporary state administration; debt-for-equity swaps would damage bond markets, insurance companies and pension funds. But the choice is inescapable.

If Mr Geithner or Lawrence Summers, head of the national economic council, were advising the US as a foreign country, they would point this out, brutally. Dominique Strauss-Kahn, IMF managing director, said the same thing, very gently, in Malaysia last Saturday.

The correct advice remains the one the US gave the Japanese and others during the 1990s: admit reality, restructure banks and, above all, slay zombie institutions at once. It is an important, but secondary, question whether the right answer is to create new ?good banks?, leaving old bad banks to perish, as my colleague, Willem Buiter, recommends, or new ?bad banks?, leaving cleansed old banks to survive. I also am inclined to the former, because the culture of the old banks seems so toxic.

By asking the wrong question, Mr Obama is taking a huge gamble. He should have resolved to cleanse these Augean banking stables. He needs to rethink, if it is not already too late
.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9ebe...58.html?nclick_check=1
 

nullzero

Senior member
Jan 15, 2005
670
0
0
Let the banks fail! Then have the government open new banks... have a share offering of the new banks to the public and be done with it. Supporting these failed banks is idiocy... 90% of the banks are insolvent, the U.S. is most likely as well now.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Many fortunes have been made on the backs of Americans and immigrants. It's still happening in many industries, and in this economy it will only get worse.
The Italians got left out again :thumbsdown:

 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: rchiu

I don't think you can put the losses simply on liquidity. There are many assets went down because their rating plummeted, and people found out that S&P/Moodys did a $hit job rating those assets in the first place. Many people also realize now that many assets are too complex to be valued, and no one will touch it unless those assets can be valued/rated properly. Those assets were simply priced wrong in the first place.

Those losses are permanent and not liquidity related. Yes 401k and many people's savig will be hurt if we let market determine the price and have banks sell those assets off instead of government intervention. But it is what it is, a bad investment on people's part (not necessary bad decision, just bad luck but $hit happens), and why should every single American taxpayer pay for certain people's bad investment?

The re-rating of the assets only mean that they didn't have the credit protection underneath them to support the rating originally given, not that they have sustained actual losses. A rating only indicates the likelihood of sustaining a $1 principal loss given a stressed scenario. A AAA bond should sustain a loss with maybe a .5% chance, thus, the credit enhancement underneath that bond may have to be 5x the "normal" loss expectation (A 5x loss scenario is a great-depression-like event), a BBB bond may only need 2x losses. Thus, if losses become 2.5x as much, then there is only 2x coverage on a former-AAA bond, requiring it to be re-rated as a BBB. However, not a single $ of principal has been lost, it is merely a mark-to-market. In all likelihood, a re-doubling of losses is unlikely.

So you are wrong, not all bonds that were written down are permenantly lost money. In fact, most will recover ALL money, unless you're talking CDOs of mezz tranches of ABS, in which case, since the correlation of the mezz tranches are so high, all CDO holders, even AAA will be wiped out. However, CDOs aren't that huge of a problem, relatively speaking.

A bond can go from AAA to BBB without having sustained $1 of principal loss merely from having the bond insurer go out of business. Once the asset is downgraded the mark-to-market dictates that the liquidity premium for a BBB must be applied. If the original yield was 5% and the new yield is 15% on a 10-year bond, then you have essentially a 100% write-down. That isn't how it totally works and is far more complicated, but it's reasonable for this forum.

However, in any "normal" situation, that bond may have priced at 8-10%, not 15%, but due to the illiquidity of a BBB bond right now.

I'd suggest you read a bit more on how securitization and rating agencies actually work, as well as how mark-to-market works. You're not getting it right and you're spreading a lot of FUD.
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
0
0
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Many fortunes have been made on the backs of Americans and immigrants. It's still happening in many industries, and in this economy it will only get worse.
The Italians got left out again :thumbsdown:

Yes, but they made up for it by getting laid twice as much as the rest of the country!

-Robert
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
0
0
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Part of the problem, I think, is that the New Admin has been unwilling, so far, to just step in and nationalize the failing financial institutions. Sweden did so quite successfully in the early 90's.

The problem, for now, is that every speculative peak is followed by a trough. True market value is regained only when the price of whatever it is rises from there to equilibrium, a sustainable level. If the securities in question are sold at trough values, it won't save the banks, and will, unfortunately, drag a lot of otherwise innocent debtors under with them. It's a direct consequence of over-leverage, and of allowing certain kinds of securities to be claimed as assets in the first place. If the govt steps in and runs the banks for a time, until that equilibrium is reached, then they banks can be sold back into private hands at a fair price, minimizing losses to the taxpayers. If the govt does nothing, losses to the taxpayers, both direct and indirect, will be much, much larger, basically collapsing credit entirely...

One of the advantages of nationalization is that the banks can be dismembered, sold off in pieces, doing away with the whole "too big to let it fail" meme while we're at it... The insurance component becomes, you know, an insurance company, and the banking and stockbrokerage components become discreet entities, as well... even finer granularity can be achieved by breaking the constituent parts into state or regional entities...


Excellent thinking, but it's politically unviable, even in this climate. Maybe in 6 months....

-Robert
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
0
Originally posted by: chess9
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Many fortunes have been made on the backs of Americans and immigrants. It's still happening in many industries, and in this economy it will only get worse.
The Italians got left out again :thumbsdown:

Yes, but they made up for it by getting laid twice as much as the rest of the country!

-Robert
:music:Catholic girls with a tiny little mustache:music:
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
0
0
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: rchiu

I don't think you can put the losses simply on liquidity. There are many assets went down because their rating plummeted, and people found out that S&P/Moodys did a $hit job rating those assets in the first place. Many people also realize now that many assets are too complex to be valued, and no one will touch it unless those assets can be valued/rated properly. Those assets were simply priced wrong in the first place.

Those losses are permanent and not liquidity related. Yes 401k and many people's savig will be hurt if we let market determine the price and have banks sell those assets off instead of government intervention. But it is what it is, a bad investment on people's part (not necessary bad decision, just bad luck but $hit happens), and why should every single American taxpayer pay for certain people's bad investment?

The re-rating of the assets only mean that they didn't have the credit protection underneath them to support the rating originally given, not that they have sustained actual losses. A rating only indicates the likelihood of sustaining a $1 principal loss given a stressed scenario. A AAA bond should sustain a loss with maybe a .5% chance, thus, the credit enhancement underneath that bond may have to be 5x the "normal" loss expectation (A 5x loss scenario is a great-depression-like event), a BBB bond may only need 2x losses. Thus, if losses become 2.5x as much, then there is only 2x coverage on a former-AAA bond, requiring it to be re-rated as a BBB. However, not a single $ of principal has been lost, it is merely a mark-to-market. In all likelihood, a re-doubling of losses is unlikely.

So you are wrong, not all bonds that were written down are permenantly lost money. In fact, most will recover ALL money, unless you're talking CDOs of mezz tranches of ABS, in which case, since the correlation of the mezz tranches are so high, all CDO holders, even AAA will be wiped out. However, CDOs aren't that huge of a problem, relatively speaking.

A bond can go from AAA to BBB without having sustained $1 of principal loss merely from having the bond insurer go out of business. Once the asset is downgraded the mark-to-market dictates that the liquidity premium for a BBB must be applied. If the original yield was 5% and the new yield is 15% on a 10-year bond, then you have essentially a 100% write-down. That isn't how it totally works and is far more complicated, but it's reasonable for this forum.

However, in any "normal" situation, that bond may have priced at 8-10%, not 15%, but due to the illiquidity of a BBB bond right now.

I'd suggest you read a bit more on how securitization and rating agencies actually work, as well as how mark-to-market works. You're not getting it right and you're spreading a lot of FUD.

I'd say confidence in the asset value is very important. It there is little confidence in the rating agencies, then the market will have little confidence in the asset values. You don't have to know the highly technical aspects of securitization to lose confidence in asset values.

Back atja'. :)

-Robert

 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
0
0
Originally posted by: Zebo
Chess, More on the 'already failed' meme from Wolf@FT, no rightwing hack, but a serious economic writer says: Obama is beset by "three arbitrary, self-imposed constraints: no nationalisation; no losses for bondholders; and no more money from Congress" and will most certainly fail because of this and faith based hope.

Read it all.

Why Obama?s new Tarp will fail to rescue the banks

By Martin Wolf

Published: February 10 2009

Has Barack Obama?s presidency already failed? In normal times, this would be a ludicrous question. But these are not normal times. They are times of great danger. Today, the new US administration can disown responsibility for its inheritance; tomorrow, it will own it. Today, it can offer solutions; tomorrow it will have become the problem. Today, it is in control of events; tomorrow, events will take control of it. Doing too little is now far riskier than doing too much. If he fails to act decisively, the president risks being overwhelmed, like his predecessor. The costs to the US and the world of another failed presidency do not bear contemplating.

What is needed? The answer is: focus and ferocity. If Mr Obama does not fix this crisis, all he hopes from his presidency will be lost. If he does, he can reshape the agenda. Hoping for the best is foolish. He should expect the worst and act accordingly.

Yet hoping for the best is what one sees in the stimulus programme and ? so far as I can judge from Tuesday?s sketchy announcement by Tim Geithner, Treasury secretary ? also in the new plans for fixing the banking system. I commented on the former last week. I would merely add that it is extraordinary that a popular new president, confronting a once-in-80-years? economic crisis, has let Congress shape the outcome.

The banking programme seems to be yet another child of the failed interventions of the past one and a half years: optimistic and indecisive. If this ?progeny of the troubled asset relief programme? fails, Mr Obama?s credibility will be ruined. Now is the time for action that seems close to certain to resolve the problem; this, however, does not seem to be it.

All along two contrasting views have been held on what ails the financial system. The first is that this is essentially a panic. The second is that this is a problem of insolvency.

Under the first view, the prices of a defined set of ?toxic assets? have been driven below their long-run value and in some cases have become impossible to sell. The solution, many suggest, is for governments to make a market, buy assets or insure banks against losses. This was the rationale for the original Tarp and the ?super-SIV (special investment vehicle)? proposed by Henry (Hank) Paulson, the previous Treasury secretary, in 2007.

Under the second view, a sizeable proportion of financial institutions are insolvent: their assets are, under plausible assumptions, worth less than their liabilities. The International Monetary Fund argues that potential losses on US-originated credit assets alone are now $2,200bn (?1,700bn, £1,500bn), up from $1,400bn just last October. This is almost identical to the latest estimates from Goldman Sachs. In recent comments to the Financial Times, Nouriel Roubini of RGE Monitor and the Stern School of New York University estimates peak losses on US-generated assets at $3,600bn. Fortunately for the US, half of these losses will fall abroad. But, the rest of the world will strike back: as the world economy implodes, huge losses abroad ? on sovereign, housing and corporate debt ? will surely fall on US institutions, with dire effects.

Personally, I have little doubt that the second view is correct and, as the world economy deteriorates, will become ever more so. But this is not the heart of the matter. That is whether, in the presence of such uncertainty, it can be right to base policy on hoping for the best. The answer is clear: rational policymakers must assume the worst. If this proved pessimistic, they would end up with an over-capitalised financial system. If the optimistic choice turned out to be wrong, they would have zombie banks and a discredited government. This choice is surely a ?no brainer?.

The new plan seems to make sense if and only if the principal problem is illiquidity. Offering guarantees and buying some portion of the toxic assets, while limiting new capital injections to less than the $350bn left in the Tarp, cannot deal with the insolvency problem identified by informed observers. Indeed, any toxic asset purchase or guarantee programme must be an ineffective, inefficient and inequitable way to rescue inadequately capitalised financial institutions: ineffective, because the government must buy vast amounts of doubtful assets at excessive prices or provide over-generous guarantees, to render insolvent banks solvent; inefficient, because big capital injections or conversion of debt into equity are better ways to recapitalise banks; and inequitable, because big subsidies would go to failed institutions and private buyers of bad assets.

Why then is the administration making what appears to be a blunder? It may be that it is hoping for the best. But it also seems it has set itself the wrong question. It has not asked what needs to be done to be sure of a solution. It has asked itself, instead, what is the best it can do given three arbitrary, self-imposed constraints: no nationalisation; no losses for bondholders; and no more money from Congress. Yet why does a new administration, confronting a huge crisis, not try to change the terms of debate? This timidity is depressing. Trying to make up for this mistake by imposing pettifogging conditions on assisted institutions is more likely to compound the error than to reduce it.

Assume that the problem is insolvency and the modest market value of US commercial banks (about $400bn) derives from government support (see charts). Assume, too, that it is impossible to raise large amounts of private capital today. Then there has to be recapitalisation in one of the two ways indicated above. Both have disadvantages: government recapitalisation is a bail-out of creditors and involves temporary state administration; debt-for-equity swaps would damage bond markets, insurance companies and pension funds. But the choice is inescapable.

If Mr Geithner or Lawrence Summers, head of the national economic council, were advising the US as a foreign country, they would point this out, brutally. Dominique Strauss-Kahn, IMF managing director, said the same thing, very gently, in Malaysia last Saturday.

The correct advice remains the one the US gave the Japanese and others during the 1990s: admit reality, restructure banks and, above all, slay zombie institutions at once. It is an important, but secondary, question whether the right answer is to create new ?good banks?, leaving old bad banks to perish, as my colleague, Willem Buiter, recommends, or new ?bad banks?, leaving cleansed old banks to survive. I also am inclined to the former, because the culture of the old banks seems so toxic.

By asking the wrong question, Mr Obama is taking a huge gamble. He should have resolved to cleanse these Augean banking stables. He needs to rethink, if it is not already too late
.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9ebe...58.html?nclick_check=1

That's a great article, but he missed the most important fact: We have a Republican Party staunchly opposed to nationalization or heavy involvement by the central government, and many conservative Dems also oppose that approach. Much of it could be done by Treasury, yes, but the Republicans would be howling like mad dogs.

Essentially, Obama is trying what he thinks is politically possible. He wasn't bold enough to try the nearly impossible. Is this a fair criticism? Yes, I believe it is! I also think his approach will fail. Geithner and Paulson will go down in history as the two biggest buffoons in American history.

-Robert

 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
0
0
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: chess9
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Many fortunes have been made on the backs of Americans and immigrants. It's still happening in many industries, and in this economy it will only get worse.
The Italians got left out again :thumbsdown:

Yes, but they made up for it by getting laid twice as much as the rest of the country!

-Robert
:music:Catholic girls with a tiny little mustache:music:

LMFAO! You dirty old man!

-Robert
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: chess9
I'd say confidence in the asset value is very important. It there is little confidence in the rating agencies, then the market will have little confidence in the asset values. You don't have to know the highly technical aspects of securitization to lose confidence in asset values.

Back atja'. :)

-Robert

I would agree 100% that confidence in the asset values is important, but we aren't talking about confidence, are we? The premise of the discussion was that the banks have taken permanent losses by way of actual principal loss. Actual principal loss isn't predicated upon assumptions of asset quality, it is realization of less principal than you paid for. In most cases AAA bonds haven't sustained enough defaults AND loss severity to result in a AAA tranche loss, or, if they have, it hasn't been a 100% reduction in principal.

Those who don't know how securitization works shouldn't be investing, which was part of the problem originally. Many people had no business investing in them. Sure, people relied more on ratings than their intuition, but I have no remorse for those people.

A flaming bag of dogshit can be rated AAA by any of the 3 companies but it's still a flaming bag of dogshit. People might have been razzle-dazzled by the fire, but it's nobody's fault but their own they got burned.
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
0
0
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: chess9
I'd say confidence in the asset value is very important. It there is little confidence in the rating agencies, then the market will have little confidence in the asset values. You don't have to know the highly technical aspects of securitization to lose confidence in asset values.

Back atja'. :)

-Robert

I would agree 100% that confidence in the asset values is important, but we aren't talking about confidence, are we? The premise of the discussion was that the banks have taken permanent losses by way of actual principal loss. Actual principal loss isn't predicated upon assumptions of asset quality, it is realization of less principal than you paid for. In most cases AAA bonds haven't sustained enough defaults AND loss severity to result in a AAA tranche loss, or, if they have, it hasn't been a 100% reduction in principal.

Those who don't know how securitization works shouldn't be investing, which was part of the problem originally. Many people had no business investing in them. Sure, people relied more on ratings than their intuition, but I have no remorse for those people.

A flaming bag of dogshit can be rated AAA by any of the 3 companies but it's still a flaming bag of dogshit. People might have been razzle-dazzled by the fire, but it's nobody's fault but their own they got burned.

Ultimately, it's all about confidence. Which is why Madoff could pull off his little stunt. He was a bag of dogshit with a Triple A rating in the minds of many. Not until someone stepped on the bag did they realize they had a smelly problem. :)

The losses the banks have taken are because there is no market for most of these toxic assets, and there is no market because people don't believe the toxic assets have much, if any, value in part because they were mis-rated and in part because the market has tanked. I don't think this is all that difficult to understand, but I've been wrong before. :)

I wouldn't expect AAA assets to have lost much, assuming they were accurately rated, but even they have taken a hit in this down cycle.

Most people rely on investment advisors anyway. A lot of those people should be hung because they don't know what they are doing.

-Robert
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: chess9
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: rchiu

I don't think you can put the losses simply on liquidity. There are many assets went down because their rating plummeted, and people found out that S&P/Moodys did a $hit job rating those assets in the first place. Many people also realize now that many assets are too complex to be valued, and no one will touch it unless those assets can be valued/rated properly. Those assets were simply priced wrong in the first place.

Those losses are permanent and not liquidity related. Yes 401k and many people's savig will be hurt if we let market determine the price and have banks sell those assets off instead of government intervention. But it is what it is, a bad investment on people's part (not necessary bad decision, just bad luck but $hit happens), and why should every single American taxpayer pay for certain people's bad investment?

The re-rating of the assets only mean that they didn't have the credit protection underneath them to support the rating originally given, not that they have sustained actual losses. A rating only indicates the likelihood of sustaining a $1 principal loss given a stressed scenario. A AAA bond should sustain a loss with maybe a .5% chance, thus, the credit enhancement underneath that bond may have to be 5x the "normal" loss expectation (A 5x loss scenario is a great-depression-like event), a BBB bond may only need 2x losses. Thus, if losses become 2.5x as much, then there is only 2x coverage on a former-AAA bond, requiring it to be re-rated as a BBB. However, not a single $ of principal has been lost, it is merely a mark-to-market. In all likelihood, a re-doubling of losses is unlikely.

So you are wrong, not all bonds that were written down are permenantly lost money. In fact, most will recover ALL money, unless you're talking CDOs of mezz tranches of ABS, in which case, since the correlation of the mezz tranches are so high, all CDO holders, even AAA will be wiped out. However, CDOs aren't that huge of a problem, relatively speaking.

A bond can go from AAA to BBB without having sustained $1 of principal loss merely from having the bond insurer go out of business. Once the asset is downgraded the mark-to-market dictates that the liquidity premium for a BBB must be applied. If the original yield was 5% and the new yield is 15% on a 10-year bond, then you have essentially a 100% write-down. That isn't how it totally works and is far more complicated, but it's reasonable for this forum.

However, in any "normal" situation, that bond may have priced at 8-10%, not 15%, but due to the illiquidity of a BBB bond right now.

I'd suggest you read a bit more on how securitization and rating agencies actually work, as well as how mark-to-market works. You're not getting it right and you're spreading a lot of FUD.

I'd say confidence in the asset value is very important. It there is little confidence in the rating agencies, then the market will have little confidence in the asset values. You don't have to know the highly technical aspects of securitization to lose confidence in asset values.

Back atja'. :)

-Robert

Confidence? Confidence, or as Keynes called 'animal spirits' is the same faulty framework that got us into this mess. The pols using this un-rational and unscientific thinking simply pumped money we did not have, were unlikely to make or ever have, as the key to turning the economy around. The real problems, too much debt, too little savings, and a mismatch between production and consumption, came roaring back with increasing deleterious strength each time.. A loss of confidence, leading to less spending on current consumption and a consequential increase in saving, is a RATIONAL and sometimes, as in the case of lower and middle class, a FORCED response to the current economic REALITY. Encouraging people to dig themselves into deeper financial holes will only exacerbate the problems.
 

Nemesis 1

Lifer
Dec 30, 2006
11,366
2
0
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: chess9
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Many fortunes have been made on the backs of Americans and immigrants. It's still happening in many industries, and in this economy it will only get worse.
The Italians got left out again :thumbsdown:

Yes, but they made up for it by getting laid twice as much as the rest of the country!

-Robert
:music:Catholic girls with a tiny little mustache:music:

LOL now that was good.
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
0
0
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: chess9
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: rchiu

I don't think you can put the losses simply on liquidity. There are many assets went down because their rating plummeted, and people found out that S&P/Moodys did a $hit job rating those assets in the first place. Many people also realize now that many assets are too complex to be valued, and no one will touch it unless those assets can be valued/rated properly. Those assets were simply priced wrong in the first place.

Those losses are permanent and not liquidity related. Yes 401k and many people's savig will be hurt if we let market determine the price and have banks sell those assets off instead of government intervention. But it is what it is, a bad investment on people's part (not necessary bad decision, just bad luck but $hit happens), and why should every single American taxpayer pay for certain people's bad investment?

The re-rating of the assets only mean that they didn't have the credit protection underneath them to support the rating originally given, not that they have sustained actual losses. A rating only indicates the likelihood of sustaining a $1 principal loss given a stressed scenario. A AAA bond should sustain a loss with maybe a .5% chance, thus, the credit enhancement underneath that bond may have to be 5x the "normal" loss expectation (A 5x loss scenario is a great-depression-like event), a BBB bond may only need 2x losses. Thus, if losses become 2.5x as much, then there is only 2x coverage on a former-AAA bond, requiring it to be re-rated as a BBB. However, not a single $ of principal has been lost, it is merely a mark-to-market. In all likelihood, a re-doubling of losses is unlikely.

So you are wrong, not all bonds that were written down are permenantly lost money. In fact, most will recover ALL money, unless you're talking CDOs of mezz tranches of ABS, in which case, since the correlation of the mezz tranches are so high, all CDO holders, even AAA will be wiped out. However, CDOs aren't that huge of a problem, relatively speaking.

A bond can go from AAA to BBB without having sustained $1 of principal loss merely from having the bond insurer go out of business. Once the asset is downgraded the mark-to-market dictates that the liquidity premium for a BBB must be applied. If the original yield was 5% and the new yield is 15% on a 10-year bond, then you have essentially a 100% write-down. That isn't how it totally works and is far more complicated, but it's reasonable for this forum.

However, in any "normal" situation, that bond may have priced at 8-10%, not 15%, but due to the illiquidity of a BBB bond right now.

I'd suggest you read a bit more on how securitization and rating agencies actually work, as well as how mark-to-market works. You're not getting it right and you're spreading a lot of FUD.

I'd say confidence in the asset value is very important. It there is little confidence in the rating agencies, then the market will have little confidence in the asset values. You don't have to know the highly technical aspects of securitization to lose confidence in asset values.

Back atja'. :)

-Robert

Confidence? Confidence, or as Keynes called 'animal spirits' is the same faulty framework that got us into this mess. The pols using this un-rational and unscientific thinking simply pumped money we did not have, were unlikely to make or ever have, as the key to turning the economy around. The real problems, too much debt, too little savings, and a mismatch between production and consumption, came roaring back with increasing deleterious strength each time.. A loss of confidence, leading to less spending on current consumption and a consequential increase in saving, is a RATIONAL and sometimes, as in the case of lower and middle class, a FORCED response to the current economic REALITY. Encouraging people to dig themselves into deeper financial holes will only exacerbate the problems.

Oh, I agree that loss of confidence is not only rational, but justified. Some might go so far as to say it's GOOD. :)

-Robert