The Sacrifices Required for a Socialist Society

[Starbuck1975]

Across numerous threads in this forum, members who are left leaning often point out the benefits of a socialist society...looking to our Canadien neighbors and European Allies, in some regards it seems like they have managed to develop and implement systems that target the types of social ills that still plague this nation.

One of the principles of a socialist society is that the collective needs of the people outweigh the needs of the individual, to the extent that people are expected to make sacrifices for the common good...this extends across all facets of society, from minimum wages and salary caps to taxes on income, goods and services.

Yet one common characteristic of many socialist societies is conscripted military service. Many of our Allies have a system in place where individual citizens, when they reach a certain age of maturity, must serve the government for the common good in some capacity...the most common manifestation of this principle is military service, although there are alternatives.

Similarly, in the realm of education, many of these socialist societies direct individuals towards certain career paths for the common good of society...higher education may be more accessible in these countries then it is in America, but it comes at a price, depending on performance of state mandated exams and tests...where the flexibility of your career path is based largely on where you demonstrate talent or proficiency.

These are generalizations, but the point of the question is to recognize that there are certain sacrifices that one must accept in moving towards a socialist system. Perhaps this is why socialism is somewhat incompatible with American society, as our culture and heritage has deviated away from this "collective good" mentality.

Interesting that our society has deviated so far from that of our European roots given that the American Revolution was largely in response to the same "blue blood" eliticism that spawned socialist thought in Europe.

 

[Forsythe]

YOu're wrong about one point, the collective does not outweigh the single person, everyone is important, that's how socialism was started. As a counterbalance to the capitalism, where only the better, ie. the rich guy or the company/country mattered. You're confusing it with stalinism/leninism.

 

[dmcowen674]

Resistance is Futile

 

[judasmachine]

so why don't we just sit down at the table and develop a hybrid system that avoids alot of the pitfalls of capitalism and socialism, and one that we can all live with? no one ever does this, they only look at the extremes. the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle.

 

[StageLeft]

:thumbsup:

 

[Infohawk]

Compulsory military service is losing favor. Great Britain doesn't have it and France recenly got rid of it. I don't think it has to do with left-leaning tendencies.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Compulsory military service is losing favor. Great Britain doesn't have it and France recenly got rid of it. I don't think it has to do with left-leaning tendencies.

Begs the question of why it is losing favor, and how these states intend to provide for their own protection without a readily available pool of soldiers in uniform.

It may not have anything to do with political ideology, but it does not change the fact that mandatory military service is a characteristic of many socialist societies...is it because such a requirement is intrinsic to socialism, or perhaps contradictory to it?

YOu're wrong about one point, the collective does not outweigh the single person, everyone is important, that's how socialism was started. As a counterbalance to the capitalism, where only the better, ie. the rich guy or the company/country mattered. You're confusing it with stalinism/leninism.

Well socialism comes in many different flavors...while it recognizes the importance of the individual, it also simultaneously places limitations on the individual for the benefit of society as a whole...like you said, it is a counterbalance to capitalism, preventing certain individuals from exploiting others to get ahead of the pack...however, in enforcing a society that tries to keep the pack tight, you are also limiting personal freedoms to the extent that the collective good also translates into protecting individuals from exploitation.

 

[Genx87]

Become part of the collective. I believe the Borg from Star-Trek would be classified as a socialist or its more extreme form communism.

Everybody is equal and all work for the betterment of the group.

 

[piasabird]

Bring on that mandatory 40% tax system. I cant wait to get some of that free money.

 

[sandorski]

Just like to point a few things out:

1) Canada has neither Conscription nor forced entry into a particular Career Path(I'd really like to know who has, last I heard Warsaw Nations had such a thing, but I've never heard of such a policy in Western Europe, not since the end of the Cold War).

2) Conscription isn't a Socialist ideal, many US Conservatives have been promoting that very idea themselves. Personally I don't think Conscription is that bad of a Policy. Especially in Europe where most indivdual Nations have relatively small populations and are surrounded by many Nations where Historically War has been common. It just makes sense for the Citizenry to be trained and prepared for the possibility of War.

3) I think the OP fails to make any kind of arguement. A couple names(Nations), a couple alleged Policies of Socialism, a quick definition of said Policies with emphasis on "Socialism, but no supporting proof that Socialism has anything to do with the Policies nor any proof linking Names to these Policies. The OP falls on it's face from the get go.

 

[dmens]

The crushing of the human spirit and sense of self.

 

[DotheDamnTHing]

Originally posted by: sandorski
Just like to point a few things out:

1) Canada has neither Conscription nor forced entry into a particular Career Path(I'd really like to know who has, last I heard Warsaw Nations had such a thing, but I've never heard of such a policy in Western Europe, not since the end of the Cold War).

2) Conscription isn't a Socialist ideal, many US Conservatives have been promoting that very idea themselves. Personally I don't think Conscription is that bad of a Policy. Especially in Europe where most indivdual Nations have relatively small populations and are surrounded by many Nations where Historically War has been common. It just makes sense for the Citizenry to be trained and prepared for the possibility of War.

3) I think the OP fails to make any kind of arguement. A couple names(Nations), a couple alleged Policies of Socialism, a quick definition of said Policies with emphasis on "Socialism, but no supporting proof that Socialism has anything to do with the Policies nor any proof linking Names to these Policies. The OP falls on it's face from the get go.

:thumbsup:

 

[DotheDamnTHing]

Originally posted by: dmens
The crushing of the human spirit and sense of self.

If you have read ANY Marx, Adorno, Marcuse, Rousseau you will realize that the liberal state and society is just as dangerous with regard to the human 'spirit'

 

[Starbuck1975]

3) I think the OP fails to make any kind of arguement. A couple names(Nations), a couple alleged Policies of Socialism, a quick definition of said Policies with emphasis on "Socialism, but no supporting proof that Socialism has anything to do with the Policies nor any proof linking Names to these Policies. The OP falls on it's face from the get go.

The specific policies of individual nations I felt were irrelevant, as it was more a trend I noticed across Europe during the five years that I lived there...not really criticism or even an attack on socialism itself, but rather the recognition that socialism, like capitalism, has its shortcomings.

Conscription isn't a Socialist ideal, many US Conservatives have been promoting that very idea themselves.

Depending on what time frame you are talking about, each political party has advocated conscription at one time or another, but for different reasons.

 

[dmens]

Originally posted by: DotheDamnTHing
If you have read ANY Marx, Adorno, Marcuse, Rousseau you will realize that the liberal state and society is just as dangerous with regard to the human 'spirit'

Yeah, so thats what my professors used to say. Too bad those cynical bastards have been proven wrong over and over again in the past century.

 

[cwjerome]

Perhaps this is why socialism is somewhat incompatible with American society, as our culture and heritage has deviated away from this "collective good" mentality.

I think if the Declaration of Independence said "SOME life, a BIT of liberty, and a LITTLE pursuit of happiness" then we'd be more apt to have more socialism in America

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975


The specific policies of individual nations I felt were irrelevant, as it was more a trend I noticed across Europe during the five years that I lived there...not really criticism or even an attack on socialism itself, but rather the recognition that socialism, like capitalism, has its shortcomings.



Depending on what time frame you are talking about, each political party has advocated conscription at one time or another, but for different reasons.

I think these Observations still are not accurate. You probably also saw exchange of Money for Good and Services, is that Socialism? You observed small Businesses, BMW's and Mercedes driven around, and Corporate advertising plastered everywhere are these hallmarks of Socialism? What you pointed out in the OP were Cultural differences and had nothing to do with "Socialism".

Europe is only slightly more "socialist" than the US and Canada even less so.

 

[dpm]

Originally posted by: judasmachine
so why don't we just sit down at the table and develop a hybrid system that avoids alot of the pitfalls of capitalism and socialism, and one that we can all live with? no one ever does this, they only look at the extremes. the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle.

Isn't that what the US and Europe already have? For all the political bluster, they are nearly identical.

 

[AnitaPeterson]

Originally posted by: DotheDamnTHing

Originally posted by: dmens
The crushing of the human spirit and sense of self.

If you have read ANY Marx, Adorno, Marcuse, Rousseau you will realize that the liberal state and society is just as dangerous with regard to the human 'spirit'

You realize that most of the people who spew grbage in this thread and this forum in general, have no clue what you're talking about, and who these people are, yes?

 

[dmens]

Originally posted by: AnitaPeterson
You realize that most of the people who spew grbage in this thread and this forum in general, have no clue what you're talking about, and who these people are, yes?

Right, quoting the names of various leftie bigshots and "critical theorists" makes you smart. LOL!

By the way, Marcuse only considered the liberal state dangerous because it permitted the freedom of information, including ideas which he considered "harmful" to society. He was also a big fan of individualism, as long as the individual held politically correct ideologies. He called this "liberating tolerance". Marx also espoused similar ideas regarding the purity of thought.

Sounds like you're a big fan of fascism.

 

[Abraxas]

Originally posted by: dmens

Originally posted by: DotheDamnTHing
If you have read ANY Marx, Adorno, Marcuse, Rousseau you will realize that the liberal state and society is just as dangerous with regard to the human 'spirit'

Yeah, so thats what my professors used to say. Too bad those cynical bastards have been proven wrong over and over again in the past century.

Back it up. As last I was aware they, the Marxists/Leninists/Trots (as opposed to Stalinists and Maoists) have only been "proven" wrong about a few things, e.g. the crisis in Capitalism being enough to completely destabilize the system and the revolution spreading from Russia to Germany. Not that I expect you to actually do this; you are quickly aquiring a reputation for posting one-liners or at best brief paragraphs full of unsupported statements. The rest of the time you drop a link to a Hayek book and make no claims at all. I would like you, once, to support a claim you make without linking to a print copy of someone elses work.

Tell me, for example, what Adorno has been proven wrong about? Is it his claims of identity thinking or Negative Dialectics?

P.S. The borg have a central director, ie the Queen, so I believe the Borg actually qualify as fascists or Stalinists rather than any form of communism or socialism.

 

[dmens]

Originally posted by: Abraxas
I would like you, once, to support a claim you make without linking to a print copy of someone elses work.

LOL! You make it sound like everyone on this forum writes their own detailed opinion pieces. HAHAHAHA! At least I provide links. Our Marcusean fan didn't bother.

By the way, I'm only familiar with Marcuse and Marx, don't bother asking me about the other two.

 

[Abraxas]

Most people on this forum at least give some detail. You, on the other hand, post oneliners, insults, and "LOL". Your links usually are to one of two right wing e-rags or to amazon.com where one Hayek or Goldberg's books can be found. If presenting an original argument is too much for me to ask of you then please say so now to save me the trouble of trying to get you to defend your claims in the future.

Very well then, show me what Marx was proven, and I do intend to hold you to proof, wrong on.

 

[cruiser1338]

Originally posted by: dmens

Originally posted by: AnitaPeterson
You realize that most of the people who spew grbage in this thread and this forum in general, have no clue what you're talking about, and who these people are, yes?

Right, quoting the names of various leftie bigshots and "critical theorists" makes you smart. LOL!

By the way, Marcuse only considered the liberal state dangerous because it permitted the freedom of information, including ideas which he considered "harmful" to society. He was also a big fan of individualism, as long as the individual held politically correct ideologies. He called this "liberating tolerance". Marx also espoused similar ideas regarding the purity of thought.

Sounds like you're a big fan of fascism.

That doesn't sound too bad. Everyone forced to make the right descision and have the right mindset. Sounds like a formula for success. No more wishywashyn nanzy panzy leftist radicals. No more tree huggers and hippie environmentalists. If it weren't for people like that, putting a barricade up for progress, they wouldn't be needed to save the trees. Go facism!

 

[dmens]

Better yet, who don't you ask "DotheDamnTHing" to demonstrate how Marx & Co. shows that the liberal state and society is just as dangerous with regard to the human spirit.

I started with a bland statement saying socialism crushes individualism. That is so obvious I don't feel like typing a rant on it. Since DotheDamnTHing seems to think I'm wrong, he can start by proving it. Then we can proceed.