The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work, and What They Do Instead

[Jhhnn]

I read the article before you had even found the thread, but like you said, assertion of faith as fact is a usual form of denial and you "just knew" I hadn't read it, huh?

I apologize for attributing lack of information for lack of comprehension on your part. My mistake.

 

[First]

While totally true here in observable reality, you need to remember that we're arguing with people who've bought into the faith-based narrative that being poor, living in terrible, crime-ridden neighborhoods, and having no hope of ever leaving minus winning the lottery or being a black-market entrepaneur, is how most of "those people" prefer it.

They've bought into this narrative with full-faith because it gives them a reason to punch down and kiss up. That is, ultimately, their moral and political philosophy. Punch down, kiss up.

And the people who own and operate this country love 'em for it. They consider them the useful idiots that they are in private, but man do they talk em' up real good on the TV and Radio machines!

Yeah, I personally don't find it difficult to understand that the overwhelming majority of welfare and disability recipients are people who were not brought up in the same conditions and context of your average American citizen/family. For example, much as 2/3rds of all homeless persons are severely mentally ill or have some form of physical or psychological disability, those on welfare tend to come from broken homes (no stable, 2-parents households or family bonds), hopelessly poor neighborhoods or are generally distraught for perfectly good economic reasons most of the time. The statistics on illnesses such as borderlin personality disorder alone are staggering; as many as 30 million Americans deal with this disorder today, usually as a result of a traumatic childhood/experience. This is one of many disorders those homeless or on welfare are afflicted by.

I get it, at one point I too thought in very simple black-and-white terms and was generally ignorant of the many different backgrounds and circumstances people hailed from. What we should be doing is not proposing overly simplistic and generally brain-dead solutions to infinitely complex problems like disability, homelessness and welfare. Instead we need to engage those persons and industries that have the most on the ground experience in these areas, and come up with a more uniform approach to dealing with it across the country, particularly at the federal level with welfare and social security disability benefits.

 

[OverVolt]

I know where 4million of the men are right now. World of warcraft.

 

[Engineer]

Engineer, don't you have some more Obama praising to do, while at the same time bashing our current state of jobs and future economic outlook of the middle class?

But but but the "unemployment" is back to pre recession levels!!

back to pre-recession levels with McService jobs. No thanks.

Not sure how you think I praise Obama on anything when it comes to good paying jobs coming back to the US. With two more 'so called' free trade agreements that he wants, I'm sure that he will drive the average middle class worker one step closer to the poor house, just like all those have done before him for the past 3+ decades.

 

[schmuckley]

This isn't true. Most working men who are unemployed do want a job but a huge number don't. Go through any high crime/high poverty zip code in a major city and you will find tons of guys standing around not looking for jobs despite unemployment rate now quite low and low-skill jobs still available.

You're out of your mind if you think there's anywhere near enough jobs available.
I'm going to guess you're young;because it's harder to get a job and people are working for less in the past 6 years than any time since at least the 50s.
The 70s recession was nothing compared to this.

I'm getting paid less for the same jobs than I was in 1983.
that's less dollars with zero adjustment for inflation.
And yes,illegals are part of the problem.
Have you bought groceries lately?
Portions are scaled down;meat prices are insane yet farmers are getting less money for beef cattle?

 

[DrDoug]

I've been trying to get men to work for me on construction jobs and it is hard to find people that will show up consistently. It has nothing to do with age either. I've had guys in their 50's skip out and not show up. I've also had guys in their 20's not show up. Everyone just wants to work until payday and then only come back when the money runs out.

A friend of mine runs a disposal business and he's been through 20 drivers in the last two years. No one will work 5 days a week. Sad to know there are easy driving jobs that will pay consistently, but no one to fill them. Too lazy.

Not saying you are like this but three of my customers own their own construction businesses and the only labor they will afford are illegals. They have one or two 'real' guys who head the crews and are paid well, the rest are illegals who will take anything to have a job. One of the owners bitched at me about how American workers think they deserve more $$$ and the illegals he hires are "real workers" because they will eat the shit wages he pays.

Threads like this are full of anecdata and are little more than wanking places for the poor overtaxed enterprising individuals who think they pay the way for everyone else to sit around on the dole, eating steaks and driving Cadillacs (I guess it's gaming now too).

 

[Zorkorist]

Yes you can. You hire them as an independent contractor, which is the same way you a hire a babysitter, dog walker, gardener, plumber, etc...

But they cost so much more today, as they have higher costs, taxation, regulation, etc.

Government keeps making, what are really basic services, exponentially more expensive.

By doing this, they create a sub-culture of people, that are unemployable, and they say "here we are, Government, to help you be employable!"

If it worked is one thing, but it obviously hasn't worked. The division between those that have, and those that have not, is greater than ever.

-John

 

[theeedude]

Want to increase labor supply, pay more. The end.

 

[Zorkorist]

Government less.

The end.

-John

 

[Subyman]

Not saying you are like this but three of my customers own their own construction businesses and the only labor they will afford are illegals. They have one or two 'real' guys who head the crews and are paid well, the rest are illegals who will take anything to have a job. One of the owners bitched at me about how American workers think they deserve more $$$ and the illegals he hires are "real workers" because they will eat the shit wages he pays.

Threads like this are full of anecdata and are little more than wanking places for the poor overtaxed enterprising individuals who think they pay the way for everyone else to sit around on the dole, eating steaks and driving Cadillacs (I guess it's gaming now too).

I pay $17 per hour for general construction work and $10 per hour for cleanup/demo. Pretty good wages for my area for unskilled labor. My friend pays I believe in the 20's per hour to drive a truck around and still can't find the help.

 

[werepossum]

Not saying you are like this but three of my customers own their own construction businesses and the only labor they will afford are illegals. They have one or two 'real' guys who head the crews and are paid well, the rest are illegals who will take anything to have a job. One of the owners bitched at me about how American workers think they deserve more $$$ and the illegals he hires are "real workers" because they will eat the shit wages he pays.

Threads like this are full of anecdata and are little more than wanking places for the poor overtaxed enterprising individuals who think they pay the way for everyone else to sit around on the dole, eating steaks and driving Cadillacs (I guess it's gaming now too).

I don't think it's all pay. I work construction engineering and I've had several construction company owners and project managers tell me they could not run their construction companies without their "little brown men". (Although some of them are white and some black, most are Hispanic brown men.) Immigrants are simply willing to work harder. Some of it admittedly is wages - for example, in twenty-odd years I've seen drywaller wages fall from near-parity with electricians and sheet metal workers and plumbers to roughly half that, because of the huge availability of unskilled workers - but a lot is simply work ethic.

 

[Zorkorist]

Those little brown men, are working under the table.

The fact that your friends can't run their business without them, is telling.

-John

 

[theeedude]

I pay $17 per hour for general construction work and $10 per hour for cleanup/demo. Pretty good wages for my area for unskilled labor. My friend pays I believe in the 20's per hour to drive a truck around and still can't find the help.

Obviously the labor market doesn't think those are "pretty good wages" or those positions would be filled.

 

[werepossum]

Those little brown men, are working under the table.

The fact that your friends can't run their business without them, is telling.

-John

I don't think so. These are medium to large firms which get audited out the ass - can't build a $10 million theater or a $20 million shopping center without having your ducks in a row. Now without doubt a lot of those social security numbers are fraudulent, but no way the construction companies are missing deductions for those wages.

Obviously the labor market doesn't think those are "pretty good wages" or those positions would be filled.

This is true, but it's related to the topic. What constitutes a good wage varies not only on the work involved, but also on the alternatives, and that includes not only other jobs but other non-job alternatives. This was my major bone with John Gibson when he defended hiring illegals on his ranch by saying he was offering a pretty good wage and no Americans would hire on. A job is a contract between employer and employee, and bringing in illegals to lower the market wage is no more morally valid than voting for government to give you some of the wage for none of the work.

And I am unanimous in that.

 

[DrDoug]

I pay $17 per hour for general construction work and $10 per hour for cleanup/demo. Pretty good wages for my area for unskilled labor. My friend pays I believe in the 20's per hour to drive a truck around and still can't find the help.

Doing a quick check at the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the hourly mean wage in Illinois for 'generic' construction laborers (including demo work) is $23.00. Drywall installers hourly mean wage is even higher at $28.26 (the top pay in the nation for that trade!). In fact, it shows that Illinois is among the top paying states in the country in the construction trades. In the truck driving categories the hourly mean wage runs between $17 and $22, so your friend is doing better on paying the hourly mean wage.

I know that this is the state average and the wages paid vary within that state but it seems that you are offering wages that are significantly below what other areas in the state are paying. Your friend is doing better, offering around the hourly mean wage for that profession. Once good thing is that at least you are offering an hourly wage. The guys I mentioned generally pay by the job, not the hour. Their reasoning is that the workers screw off and burn up hours, costing them more. They believe that a set wage for the job encourages the workers to get the job done and over with, keeping labor costs low and getting the jobs done faster.

The result is construction that is poorly and hastily done. But at least it was cheap!

 

[Zorkorist]

I don't think so. These are medium to large firms which get audited out the ass - can't build a $10 million theater or a $20 million shopping center without having your ducks in a row. Now without doubt a lot of those social security numbers are fraudulent, but no way the construction companies are missing deductions for those wages.

Of course they are.

They are working, illegally, for well under wages that a legal man is willing, or able, to work for.

That it is "wink, wink, nod, nod," only goes to illustrate the corruption in today's Government.

-John

 

[Jhhnn]

I don't think so. These are medium to large firms which get audited out the ass - can't build a $10 million theater or a $20 million shopping center without having your ducks in a row. Now without doubt a lot of those social security numbers are fraudulent, but no way the construction companies are missing deductions for those wages.

Please. Subcontractors take care of all that.

 

[werepossum]

Doing a quick check at the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the hourly mean wage in Illinois for 'generic' construction laborers (including demo work) is $23.00. Drywall installers hourly mean wage is even higher at $28.26 (the top pay in the nation for that trade!). In fact, it shows that Illinois is among the top paying states in the country in the construction trades. In the truck driving categories the hourly mean wage runs between $17 and $22, so your friend is doing better on paying the hourly mean wage.

I know that this is the state average and the wages paid vary within that state but it seems that you are offering wages that are significantly below what other areas in the state are paying. Your friend is doing better, offering around the hourly mean wage for that profession. Once good thing is that at least you are offering an hourly wage. The guys I mentioned generally pay by the job, not the hour. Their reasoning is that the workers screw off and burn up hours, costing them more. They believe that a set wage for the job encourages the workers to get the job done and over with, keeping labor costs low and getting the jobs done faster.

The result is construction that is poorly and hastily done. But at least it was cheap!

I'm impressed that Illinois has kept drywallers' wages up that high. In some states such as Florida, even the traditionally strong union trades such as electrical workers are seeing heavy inroads from illegals. Depends on how strong are the unions, how tight is the local regulation, and how high is the labor.

Of course they are.

They are working, illegally, for well under wages that a legal man is willing, or able, to work for.

That it is "wink, wink, nod, nod," only goes to illustrate the corruption in today's Government.

-John

Well, they are legal from the contractors' standpoint anyway. They have Socials that pass the IRS and they pass their pee tests. I'll admit they are all claiming a dozen or more children, so YMMV.

Please. Subcontractors take care of all that.

Nope. All the major trades are pretty big subs in my kind of work, although we do some small work too that have much smaller, much less scrutinized workforces. When I used to do small shops I saw a lot of contractors like that, but not on the big jobs. The only real subcontractors that use a lot of illegals are drywallers and demo. General labor is furnished either by the G.C. or, in strong union cities, from local labor unions. Watch an INS truck pull up and only a few people run.

Home construction and small commercial construction, now, that's a different thing. One INS truck can close down the job site.

 

[Subyman]

Doing a quick check at the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the hourly mean wage in Illinois for 'generic' construction laborers (including demo work) is $23.00. Drywall installers hourly mean wage is even higher at $28.26 (the top pay in the nation for that trade!). In fact, it shows that Illinois is among the top paying states in the country in the construction trades. In the truck driving categories the hourly mean wage runs between $17 and $22, so your friend is doing better on paying the hourly mean wage.

I know that this is the state average and the wages paid vary within that state but it seems that you are offering wages that are significantly below what other areas in the state are paying. Your friend is doing better, offering around the hourly mean wage for that profession. Once good thing is that at least you are offering an hourly wage. The guys I mentioned generally pay by the job, not the hour. Their reasoning is that the workers screw off and burn up hours, costing them more. They believe that a set wage for the job encourages the workers to get the job done and over with, keeping labor costs low and getting the jobs done faster.

The result is construction that is poorly and hastily done. But at least it was cheap!

That's average IL. I live in southern IL, huge difference in hourly rates here. I'm not losing guys to other jobs. I'm losing them because they get their check and don't come back until they've spent all the money. I won't see them after paying them on Friday for several days. Hard to schedule around dudes that don't like to show up consistently.

I'd pay someone $20+ if they were consistent, but I haven't had anyone that I'd offer that to yet. I'm sure I'll eventually get a decent team together, but my point was that it is hard to find guys that will stick with you regardless of age.

Dry wallers around my area do not make $30 an hour. I paid a team of guys to hang and finish an entire 1500sqft for $2800 including materials. Materials are $500, so $2300 labor. It took two guys 7 days at 8 hours a day. That come out to around $20 an hour. Work was great.

An aside, I had a new electrical panel and most of a house rewired for $1600 including materials and that was using union labor. I like using the unions, they get shit done.

 

[brianmanahan]

i am saving money up to retire as soon as i can - hopefully by 45

then i can free up my job for some other dude who wants it

though programmer unemployment is only about %1, so there's a lot of jobs to go around

 

[OverVolt]

Think of all the millions of tridents who just play videogames instead of posting on anandtech.

 

[DrDoug]

That's average IL. I live in southern IL, huge difference in hourly rates here. I'm not losing guys to other jobs. I'm losing them because they get their check and don't come back until they've spent all the money. I won't see them after paying them on Friday for several days. Hard to schedule around dudes that don't like to show up consistently.

I'd pay someone $20+ if they were consistent, but I haven't had anyone that I'd offer that to yet. I'm sure I'll eventually get a decent team together, but my point was that it is hard to find guys that will stick with you regardless of age.

Dry wallers around my area do not make $30 an hour. I paid a team of guys to hang and finish an entire 1500sqft for $2800 including materials. Materials are $500, so $2300 labor. It took two guys 7 days at 8 hours a day. That come out to around $20 an hour. Work was great.

An aside, I had a new electrical panel and most of a house rewired for $1600 including materials and that was using union labor. I like using the unions, they get shit done.

Using the labor data specifically for southern Illinois, the hourly mean wage for general construction labor is $20.83. The same in that area for drywall workers is $29.61, which is higher than the statewide average. This is from data that was current as of May 2013 (which is the latest on their site).

It does sound like you pay per job rather than per hour, much like the guys do here. You can argue as to how many hours you think it would take to do a job but as long as the pay is by the job, it's not by the hour. What they make per hour is dependent on how many hours it takes them since it's a set job price, not an hourly wage that you are paying them. It still sounds like you are offering less than the average for your area, which may affect the number and quality of workers that you are able to attract. Other areas in your state (and surrounding states) offer better pay and you may be seeing the drain on good workers in your area due to that influence.

It's like any other job out there; the more the pay is the larger the number and quality of applicants there are to choose from. People who pay well get to be picky about who they hire. The less you pay the smaller the number and quality of applicants there are for that work.

 

[theeedude]

No money, no honey!

 

[Zorkorist]

Might as well fuck something up.

-John

 

[Nograts]

Blanky is right. It is Social Programs and Government jobs (another form of Social Programs.)

Police men, Fire men, Military, etc., all get pensions after 20 years of "service."

Meanwhile the rest of us work on.

-John

What job do you do where you leave your family for a year at a time? What job do you do where you run into a blazing building to rescue someone else? What job do you do where you run the risk of getting shot in the face by someone else?

Oh, you work in an office? 9 to 5? Nice. Now shut the fuck up.