The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work, and What They Do Instead

[utahraptor]

The problem is welfare is all or nothing. If you make too much you get nothing so why bother working? There should be a continuous continuum of aid. This would mean that as long as you made an effort and worked as much as you could the state or federal government would provide matching income to ensure you were above poverty. Of course this is worthless if the highest earning corporations are paying no taxes.

 

[Jhhnn]

Why would I? I've done quite well for myself and am not looking for any handouts. I'm willing to work to get ahead. I know, it's shocking, but some people aren't too keen on just letting someone else pick up the tab for their life.

Which neatly sidesteps the greater issue. Times have changed, and so has the nature of opportunity itself. There's a lot less of it for people not among the financial elite. As offshoring, automation & improved materials advance further, there'll be even less.

If our economic leaders needed more Americans to work, they'd make it so.

Which raises the question of how the middle class survives when their fortunes & those of their leadership are not closely intertwined at all.

 

[nickqt]

The problem is welfare is all or nothing. If you make too much you get nothing so why bother working? There should be a continuous continuum of aid. This would mean that as long as you made an effort and worked as much as you could the state or federal government would provide matching income to ensure you were above poverty. Of course this is worthless if the highest earning corporations are paying no taxes.

I agree. It's why means-testing is BS, especially when it comes to the poorest of the poor.

You encourage working by providing benefits to the super poor with no income, and then upping through different types of benefits those who work. Often, the way policies work, people who go out and get a job pick up a whole host of entirely new costs associated with work.

This doesn't mean we have to let the poorest people die in gutters. It means that we need to stop demonizing the poor and the working class by always aiming to cut the minuscule amounts of money "given" to them, and instead get people working.

But as you've said, the amount of money given to the poor is a pittance compared to what the government gives in corporate welfare.

 

[nixium]

I should have made myself clear.

My parents had a restaurant that did the bulk of its business in the summer. The foreigners she hired were college students from Romania. My mom told me that they worked as many hours possible so they could send the money back home. When I was talking about time off I meant that the American workers would ask for days off on national summer holidays like Memorial Day, 4th of July, and Labor Day. These are national holidays, and the busiest days for businesses at the shore. It's nearly impossible to get a day off. I don't know why anyone would expect to get off on 4th of July unless it was a personal tragedy.

Foreign college students (on an F1 visa) aren't allowed to work off campus, legally.

How dare those american workers ask for days off on important cultural holidays where they get to spend time with their families! They should be busting their nuts at your restaurant instead! I have to ask: did your mom try offering double wages for working holidays?

So instead of bargaining with your worker, and making the sacrifice of giving up important cultural holidays worth their time, you guys hired cheap illegal labor that sent all the money overseas instead of reinvesting in the community. And since the labor is illegal, uncle sam lost out on taxes as well.

YOU are the problem with America, not the workers.

 

[Engineer]

Well, that do you hear that giant sucking sound?

Heck, let's get a few more of these 'so called' free trade agreements going. Surely we can import our way to prosperity while at the same time shipping our jobs out.

A few years old but still stands...

http://www.thenation.com/article/160520/welcome-mcjobs-recovery

Would you like fries with your job application?

 

[First]

Why would I? I've done quite well for myself and am not looking for any handouts. I'm willing to work to get ahead. I know, it's shocking, but some people aren't too keen on just letting someone else pick up the tab for their life.

Nah, his point was that your dumb shit comment was dumb shit. Nobody, especially prime age working men, makes a decision to stop working and go on welfare or disability. These phantom welfare kings/queens are about as plentiful as the dodo bird. Welfare is the fastest way to not only be perpetually poor and unhappy, but as a prime-age working man, women-less.

Herp a derp.

 

[Subyman]

I've been trying to get men to work for me on construction jobs and it is hard to find people that will show up consistently. It has nothing to do with age either. I've had guys in their 50's skip out and not show up. I've also had guys in their 20's not show up. Everyone just wants to work until payday and then only come back when the money runs out.

A friend of mine runs a disposal business and he's been through 20 drivers in the last two years. No one will work 5 days a week. Sad to know there are easy driving jobs that will pay consistently, but no one to fill them. Too lazy.

 

[nickqt]

Nah, his point was that your dumb shit comment was dumb shit. Nobody, especially prime age working men, makes a decision to stop working and go on welfare or disability. These phantom welfare kings/queens are about as plentiful as the dodo bird. Welfare is the fastest way to not only be perpetually poor and unhappy, but as a prime-age working man, women-less.

Herp a derp.

While totally true here in observable reality, you need to remember that we're arguing with people who've bought into the faith-based narrative that being poor, living in terrible, crime-ridden neighborhoods, and having no hope of ever leaving minus winning the lottery or being a black-market entrepaneur, is how most of "those people" prefer it.

They've bought into this narrative with full-faith because it gives them a reason to punch down and kiss up. That is, ultimately, their moral and political philosophy. Punch down, kiss up.

And the people who own and operate this country love 'em for it. They consider them the useful idiots that they are in private, but man do they talk em' up real good on the TV and Radio machines!

 

[Jeff7]

The problem is welfare is all or nothing. If you make too much you get nothing so why bother working? There should be a continuous continuum of aid. This would mean that as long as you made an effort and worked as much as you could the state or federal government would provide matching income to ensure you were above poverty. Of course this is worthless if the highest earning corporations are paying no taxes.

I'd love to see that for taxes too. Discrete brackets make people do weird things.
Part of it of course stems from ignorance of how the brackets work.
"I gotta watch my hours this week. If I get into the next tax bracket, I'll take home a lot less money this paycheck than I got last week!"

Try to throw in something like a nonlinear equation and you'd have rioting.

 

[Orignal Earl]

I found the shittiest zip code in my area back in the summer and drove there one lunch. Saw lots of guys who should have been at work (or on lunch break) standing around in their neighborhoods in the middle of the street, on porches, etc. So these guys aren't doing anything productive at all.Exactly.

You should of picked up some donuts for the crew back at work, at least give an impression that your out doing something productive.

 

[Blanky]

Nah, his point was that your dumb shit comment was dumb shit. Nobody, especially prime age working men, makes a decision to stop working and go on welfare or disability. These phantom welfare kings/queens are about as plentiful as the dodo bird. Welfare is the fastest way to not only be perpetually poor and unhappy, but as a prime-age working man, women-less.

Herp a derp.

This isn't true. Most working men who are unemployed do want a job but a huge number don't. Go through any high crime/high poverty zip code in a major city and you will find tons of guys standing around not looking for jobs despite unemployment rate now quite low and low-skill jobs still available.

 

[1prophet]

It's remarkable how easily Nativism is exploited. Offshoring & automation have had a much more profound effect than imported labor. Witness the rust belt & the devastation of employment in the manufacturing sector as a whole. Witness 30 years of insufficient wage growth. Witness the demise of Unions & pensions. Witness the rise of internet marketing. Witness the doubling of financial sector share of national income & the shift to the tippy-top. The list goes on. Witness the looting of America by her own Capitalists.

More Americans don't have jobs? No shit, Sherlock. Our economic leaders would rather hire somebody else, pit us against each other fighting for the scraps they leave behind.

Off shoring, illegals different sides of the same coin, The real rich moving wealth upwards for short term profits and leaving the wasteland and scraps as you put it for the rest to fight over just like the clearcutting of the late 19th early 20th century,

Why is it OK to look out for your family and children but looking out for your country that supports your family and children is considered, protectionism, xenophobia.

After all don't we belong to the biggest Union of all called the United States of America and shouldn't we be protecting it like other countries protect their own?

 

[Lash444]

This isn't true. Most working men who are unemployed do want a job but a huge number don't. Go through any high crime/high poverty zip code in a major city and you will find tons of guys standing around not looking for jobs despite unemployment rate now quite low and low-skill jobs still available.

So, why not leave the current level of assistance where its at, and increase the minimum wage?

Look at the numbers for how much welfare pays in comparison. Now, throw in a bit of street husslin', and its not hard to see why a lot of people skip out on doing jobs that pay below a certain level. Can't blame them for being smart enough to realize that below a certain threshold, it is unwise to work.

Unless you decrease that incentive, only an idiot would think it would change.

 

[Hugo Drax]

My god, a day off? Next thing you know they want benefits like health care.
Much easier to let millions of illegals come here and work hard for peanuts, screw Americans and all of their needs.

You should see the operating rooms filled with illegal aliens doing surgery.

 

[Jhhnn]

This isn't true. Most working men who are unemployed do want a job but a huge number don't. Go through any high crime/high poverty zip code in a major city and you will find tons of guys standing around not looking for jobs despite unemployment rate now quite low and low-skill jobs still available.

Assertion of Faith as fact is a usual form of denial. I suspect you didn't even read the article. You just know, huh?

 

[Mai72]

Which neatly sidesteps the greater issue. Times have changed, and so has the nature of opportunity itself. There's a lot less of it for people not among the financial elite. As offshoring, automation & improved materials advance further, there'll be even less.

If our economic leaders needed more Americans to work, they'd make it so.

Which raises the question of how the middle class survives when their fortunes & those of their leadership are not closely intertwined at all.

It's going to be really interesting to see if the middle class survives this century. When they look back 70 years from now what will they see? America will look much different.

Will the rich have us in chains? Will America be a wasteland? What's going to take place?

 

[Dman8777]

Comparing any period of modern economic history to the 60's is disingenuous. The US was at the pinnacle of global capitalism with control of oil prices, no real competitors, and a broad domestic manufacturing base.

 

[Mai72]

Well, that do you hear that giant sucking sound?

Heck, let's get a few more of these 'so called' free trade agreements going. Surely we can import our way to prosperity while at the same time shipping our jobs out.

A few years old but still stands...

http://www.thenation.com/article/160520/welcome-mcjobs-recovery

Would you like fries with your job application?

But But But...

The US economy is doing amazing! That's what the news tells me. D:

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Engineer, don't you have some more Obama praising to do, while at the same time bashing our current state of jobs and future economic outlook of the middle class?

But but but the "unemployment" is back to pre recession levels!!

 

[Cozarkian]

You can't hire a house-keeper today, as she will make minimum wages.

You have to report her, and pay taxes, etc.

-John

Yes you can. You hire them as an independent contractor, which is the same way you a hire a babysitter, dog walker, gardener, plumber, etc...

 

[unokitty]

It's going to be really interesting to see if the middle class survives this century... What's going to take place?

Elizabeth Warren at CNN

The hollowing out of America's middle class has been years in the making, but it wasn't inevitable that working families would fall further and further behind. Instead, it was the direct consequence of deliberate choices Washington has made over the past generation to put the rich and powerful first and to leave working people to pick up whatever crumbs were left behind...

Big banks, powerful corporations and billionaires -- people who can afford to hire armies of lobbyists and lawyers -- have amassed more and more wealth. Meanwhile, the foundations of our once strong middle class have begun to crumble, and families have been caught in a terrible squeeze.

Biden: ‘The Middle Class Has Been Left Behind’

“According to all the statistics, all the economic policy institutes, and all these groups that are outside experts in the economy, the gross domestic product means the nation grew over the last ten years by over 25 percent, and productivity went up over 30 percent,” Biden said. “But middle class wages went up by only 14 cents. Hear me? 14 cents. You know it. You don’t have to know the number, but you know. The middle class has been left behind.”

Anyone think that Obama raised a billion dollars for his reelection by appealing to the middle class?

Anyone what to explain why when Obama addresses his rich donors that they don't allow the press...

But make no mistake, Obama's policies have been very good for the 1%.. Nonetheless, as Vice-President Biden has pointed out, middle class wages have increased by 14 cents over the last 10 years.

But hey:

If you like bitterly clinging to your middle class, you are welcome to continue bitterly clinging to your middle class.

Uno

 

[OverVolt]

I've been trying to get men to work for me on construction jobs and it is hard to find people that will show up consistently. It has nothing to do with age either. I've had guys in their 50's skip out and not show up. I've also had guys in their 20's not show up. Everyone just wants to work until payday and then only come back when the money runs out.

A friend of mine runs a disposal business and he's been through 20 drivers in the last two years. No one will work 5 days a week. Sad to know there are easy driving jobs that will pay consistently, but no one to fill them. Too lazy.

I'd do it

 

[Blanky]

Assertion of Faith as fact is a usual form of denial. I suspect you didn't even read the article. You just know, huh?

I read the article before you had even found the thread, but like you said, assertion of faith as fact is a usual form of denial and you "just knew" I hadn't read it, huh?

 

[Mai72]

The system has always been rigged against us. That's no excuse to just give up.

I can't control the actions of the government, and I can't control what the big oil companies do. I can only control myself and my actions. That's why it's a cop out when people give up.

 

[MagickMan]

What? Apparently the welfare state is working as intended. :\