The right to self defense in poltical debate

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
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To preface my comments; I have been an active participant on Anandtech for nearly a decade now. I first came here looking to understand the intricacies of computers, and have gained much from participating in such discussion. My focus back then was primarily in discussing graphics technology, and I believe I have earned respect for my ability to do so in that section of this forum. I substantiate this belief with the fact that my name (more correctly my previous handle "TheSnowman") was brought up by multiple members when a request was made for participants to propose new moderators for VC & G. I was surprised to see that happened, as by that time it had been a long while since I posted regularly in that section of this forum.

With that established, I take issue with a thread I created being locked with the following argument:

YABRNECT - Yet Another Boring, Redundant Nine-Eleven Conspiracy Thread. I'm sure there are entire forums devoted to such BS. This does not have to be one of them.
Please allow me to address the last part first, and then continue with the rest:

This does not have to be one of them.
This is a forum where I'm regularly attacked by others for having challenged their faith in the official 9/11 conspiracy theory, apparently out of their inability to formulate a rational argument against my positions even on unrelated topics. I would be happy to demonstrate multiple examples of this upon request. Considering others are apparently free use my position on this matter as an excuse to attack me, surely I should also be free to defend myself?

Threads everyone finds boring just die on their own, with no need to lock it. On the contrary, multiple members obviously found the topic in question interesting enough to reply.

Redundant
Not at all, as the thread was based on the recent revelation that a FOXNews is freely aware of flaws in the official conspiracy theory, and provides insight into his positions on the topic as well as the reason he is unable to state as much publicly. Granted, there are others bringing up arguments in support of the official story which have already been discussed before, out of some aversion to discussing the information I presented, However, that does nothing to make the topic itself redundant by any rational account.

Nine-Eleven Conspiracy Thread
That would be a thread which proposes a conspiracy theory in regard to 9/11, while the thread I created presents information on the matter rather than speculation.

I'm sure there are entire forums devoted to such BS.
Surely we all agree that the BS position is inherently the one which cannot survive open debate? Assuming no argument to this, please note that I am not the one looking to stifle discussion here, and have no interest in doing so anywhere.

As for other forums, you can find many forums filled people disputing the official conspiracy theory with the whole array of logical fallacies and denial of well established realities, but I've no interest in ever participating in one of those. You can also find falser forums filled with logical fallacies and denial of reality too, such as this one. I stumbled upon that forum last time a 9/11 related topic I was participating in here on Anandtech was locked, and wracked up nearly 200 posts butting my head against their wall since then, from which I learned much. Beyond that, there are a few places which do well to keep those spewing fallacious arguments from both sides at bay, but I rarely have reason for comment towards people who are already well versed on the subject, such as here.

I hope some moderator might be so kind as to give all of the above unbiased consideration in reviewing the possibility of reopening the thread in question. I had typed out a lengthy reply to all of the many questions and arguments BeauJangles presented, and would greatly appreciate it if I could be allowed to present them in my defense there, even if the thread is only unlocked long enough for me to do so. Regardless of the outcome, I thank kindly anyone who took the time to read the entirety of this post.

---

This is not another WTC conspiracy thread. This thread is just you whining and arguing about the same garbage you posted that others having debunked your lame WTC conspiracy thread.

Harvey
Senior AnandTech Moderator
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
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reopen.....all this stuff in your thread has been rehashed and reguritated over and over.
There is NO new evidence of anything to support the premise of your thread.

Carl Cameron is another idiot.
These conspiracy theories are getting and growing very old.

You say-- That would be a thread which proposes a conspiracy theory in regard to 9/11, while the thread I created presents information on the matter rather than speculation.

the thread you created would be the same as if somebody who thought there was a conspiracy posted a disclaimer stating they are only providing information on the matter...yeah right.

Nothing you posted was new and it has alreadsy been discussed over and over.

Shalom!!



 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: kylebisme

As for other forums, you can find many forums filled people disputing the official conspiracy theory with the whole array of logical fallacies and denial of well established realities, but I've no interest in ever participating in one of those.

So why insist on posting here where you are clearly hated and not wanted?
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: kylebisme

As for other forums, you can find many forums filled people disputing the official conspiracy theory with the whole array of logical fallacies and denial of well established realities, but I've no interest in ever participating in one of those.

So why insist on posting here where you are clearly hated and not wanted?

He has the right to create objective threads/posts.

However, to rehash the same CT issues without providing anything new is not acceptable.

He has not provided any evidence of a government conspiracy; nor anything beyond wild speculation based on blurry videos that are used to buttress arguments.

Others responded, not to improve on his theories, but to show where they have been proved false over and over again and/or contradict themselves

 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,922
2,900
136
How many more times are you going to post in PFI about 9-11 conspiracy theory threads?
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
...to rehash the same CT issues without providing anything new is not acceptable.
I had adress the arguments here in the OP:

Originally posted by: kylebisme
Redundant
Not at all, as the thread was based on the recent revelation that a FOXNews is freely aware of flaws in the official conspiracy theory, and provides insight into his positions on the topic as well as the reason he is unable to state as much publicly. Granted, there are others bringing up arguments in support of the official story which have already been discussed before, out of some aversion to discussing the information I presented, However, that does nothing to make the topic itself redundant by any rational account.

Nine-Eleven Conspiracy Thread
That would be a thread which proposes a conspiracy theory in regard to 9/11, while the thread I created presents information on the matter rather than speculation.

Is there any chance you could bring yourself to acknowledge such facts?

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
He has not provided any evidence of a government conspiracy...
Nor have I ever made such a far reaching claim.

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
...nor anything beyond wild speculation...
Could you please quote an example of this "wild speculation" you are accusing me of presenting here?

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
...based on blurry videos...
Surely you don't think the truth only comes in HD? Do you dispute the video evidence of the moon landings on these grounds too?

Regardless, I post videos which are well clear enough for anyone with decent eyesight and an unclouded mind to observe what I provide them to demonstrate, and am always happy for others to post higher quality examples whenever they can.

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
...that are used to buttress arguments.
I've no interest in buttressing anything, but I can see how my respect for evidence might come off that way to those who prefer arguments woven from whole cloth.

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Others responded, not to improve on his theories, but to show where they have been proved false over and over again and/or contradict themselves
Rather, many responded by imposing theories on me and presenting arguments against claims I never made while ignoring the evidence and arguments I did present. Hence, I would greatly appreciate it if the thread could be reopened to address such misrepresentations of my position there. Surely that is not too much to ask?
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
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Originally posted by: kylebisme
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
...to rehash the same CT issues without providing anything new is not acceptable.
I had adress the arguments here in the OP:

Originally posted by: kylebisme
Redundant
Not at all, as the thread was based on the recent revelation that a FOXNews is freely aware of flaws in the official conspiracy theory, and provides insight into his positions on the topic as well as the reason he is unable to state as much publicly. Granted, there are others bringing up arguments in support of the official story which have already been discussed before, out of some aversion to discussing the information I presented, However, that does nothing to make the topic itself redundant by any rational account.

Nine-Eleven Conspiracy Thread
That would be a thread which proposes a conspiracy theory in regard to 9/11, while the thread I created presents information on the matter rather than speculation.

Is there any chance you could bring yourself to acknowledge such facts?

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
He has not provided any evidence of a government conspiracy...
Nor have I ever made such a far reaching claim.

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
...nor anything beyond wild speculation...
Could you please quote an example of this "wild speculation" you are accusing me of presenting here?

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
...based on blurry videos...
Surely you don't think the truth only comes in HD? Do you dispute the video evidence of the moon landings on these grounds too?

Regardless, I post videos which are well clear enough for anyone with decent eyesight and an unclouded mind to observe what I provide them to demonstrate, and am always happy for others to post higher quality examples whenever they can.

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
...that are used to buttress arguments.
I've no interest in buttressing anything, but I can see how my respect for evidence might come off that way to those who prefer arguments woven from whole cloth.

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Others responded, not to improve on his theories, but to show where they have been proved false over and over again and/or contradict themselves
Rather, many responded by imposing theories on me and presenting arguments against claims I never made while ignoring the evidence and arguments I did present. Hence, I would greatly appreciate it if the thread could be reopened to address such misrepresentations of my position there. Surely that is not too much to ask?

so lets get this right...now you are saying that you are not one of those wacko 9/11 conspiracy people??

So thats why it`s hard to argue with you, because you actually cannot see the falicy of your position...hmmmmm

The situation is simple you honestly believe that you are right and all the people who do NOT believe in the 9/11 conspiracy stuff are totally wrong.

I think we all know your position all to well.
case closed, if not with you then with others this has been discussed over and over again, with nothing new to add!

 

Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
25,195
0
56
kylebisme is one of those folks in real life that you would avoid after you talk to him for 10 minutes...

Of course all of us argue from our gut LOL, great comeback, kylebisme. From reading your crap in the Polanski thread, I suggest you start posting in Dave's forums, or come to TFNN, (link in my sig) we'll have some fun un-moderated threads with you and you peculiar kind of crazy.

Harvey's right, P&N isn't Politics & Conspiracies, and there are plenty of places on the net to go blather about that crap. It's been discussed to death, and frankly you have mental health issues if you really feel there's more to the 9-11 conspiracy than we know now.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,061
55,560
136
What I want to know is why after being told this board doesn't want to host more 9/11 conspiracy crap, the correct answer seemed to be to carry it over to a different part of the board.
 

Number1

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2006
7,881
549
126
OP you seam to be a fairly intelligent person. You write well and then you blow all your credibility away by referencing your information to a wacko web site called 911 blogger.com.

As stated on the web site, 911blogger.com covers alternative news covering 911. I cannot emphasize the words ALTERNATIVE NEWS enough!!!

The moderator were right.

Just go away and rejoin your alternative reality friends. We like to keep it real here.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
From my perspective as a member and not a Mod I couldn't care less if you created a thread about your whacked out ideas, I would never read it. If I were interested in that insanity I would just go to one of the nutter forums like you do.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
so lets get this right...now you are saying that you are not one of those wacko 9/11 conspiracy people??
You can quote me on that.

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
So thats why it`s hard to argue with you, because you actually cannot see the falicy of your position...hmmmmm
You can't quote anything from me to demonstrate this charge you made against me though, and ironically you are the one who has yet to muster the ability to see the fallacy of your position here.

For example sake, what you are doing here is akin to me suggesting that since you are a Zionist, you believe in "death to all Arabs", even though it is not you but rather some other Zionists who suggest such things. You wouldn't like like me to start accusing you of such anyway, would you? So why do you do such things to me?

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
kylebisme is one of those folks in real life that you would avoid after you talk to him for 10 minutes...
I've yet to meet anyone face to face who reacted to me in such a way.

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Of course all of us argue from our gut....
Well you certainy haven't provided any rational basis for your argument, and completely avioded mine.

Originally posted by: Number1
OP you seam to be a fairly intelligent person. You write well...
I'm glad toy can acknowledge that much. Granted, you are bound to notice some odd spelling and grammar errors throughout my writing, but that is a result of my dyslexia rather than any lack of intellect or education.

Originally posted by: Number1
....and then you blow all your credibility away by referencing your information to a wacko web site called 911 blogger.com.
From what I've seen, they do their best to keep the wackos on all sides of this argument at bay, but I'd be happy to recant that position if you could quote something from them to substantiate your claim to the contrary.

Originally posted by: Number1
As stated on the web site, 911blogger.com covers alternative news covering 911. I cannot emphasize the words ALTERNATIVE NEWS enough!!!
I must emphasize the fact that you have not presented a rational argument here, but rather one that apparently relies of faith in mainstream media to reject alterantives. Your argument reminds me of a statement a great man once made:

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." - Mark Twain.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
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kylebisme is the "questioning" variant of the troother wackos. He never takes a position, he just "asks questions", the same asinine ones over and over again. You know, seeking the trooth!

Sorry, everyone sees through your BS. If you keep bringing this garbage up you should be perm banned, imho.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Rather, I'm the "pointing out facts which contradict the official conspiracy theory" variant of the truthers, while you are one of the falser wackos who can't even acknowledge such facts out of an inability to cope with the questions you would be left with after doing so. So instead you make the same asinine arguments over and over again, as you revel in so much BS that you can barely even see past your own nose.
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
49,601
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www.slatebrookfarm.com
Okay, I'll play along. Pick out your best fact that contradicts what is accepted. Just one fact. If we show that it *doesn't* contradict what is accepted, or that your fact is erroneous, you shut up about this here & leave the crap at some nutcase website instead, never to be brought up again by you here. But, if we we can't show your fact is wrong, or show that it doesn't contradict what's known to have happened, then I'll go into the mod forum & make an argument for reopening your thread.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Best define what a fact is. Troothers have a different definition of the word than the rest of humanity.
 

Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
25,195
0
56
He'll cave, I offered a $100 PP bet in the Polanski thread that would have been very easy to lose, and he caved.

I think Dr Pizza's offer is too generous, and it should include a 6 month vacation as a consequence of his bringing up this BS over & over.
 

seemingly random

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2007
5,277
0
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On the other hand, there are some here on atforums who discuss their gods and agents as if they actually exist. They can't give any evidence supporting their views. I don't see any of them threatened with a banning if they continue spouting their dogma. But to mention this would just open an enormous can of worms. Never mind...
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,922
2,900
136
Originally posted by: seemingly random
On the other hand, there are some here on atforums who discuss their gods and agents as if they actually exist. They can't give any evidence supporting their views. I don't see any of them threatened with a banning if they continue spouting their dogma. But to mention this would just open an enormous can of worms. Never mind...

:roll:
 

seemingly random

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2007
5,277
0
0
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: seemingly random
On the other hand, there are some here on atforums who discuss their gods and agents as if they actually exist. They can't give any evidence supporting their views. I don't see any of them threatened with a banning if they continue spouting their dogma. But to mention this would just open an enormous can of worms. Never mind...
:roll:
:shocked:
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: DrPizza
Okay, I'll play along. Pick out your best fact that contradicts what is accepted. Just one fact. If we show that it *doesn't* contradict what is accepted, or that your fact is erroneous, you shut up about this here & leave the crap at some nutcase website instead, never to be brought up again by you here. But, if we we can't show your fact is wrong, or show that it doesn't contradict what's known to have happened, then I'll go into the mod forum & make an argument for reopening your thread.

Since I've no doubt whatsoever that the Towers were struck by Aircraft from which ever airline company it was and the same with the Pentagon and Earth in some field, I do not have a 9/11 conspiracy or commission need I'd like discussed but I do have a horse in a race that is tangential to all that tragedy and wouldn't mind hearing views on it.
The problems with discussing a tangential issue is folks tend to revert to the 9/11 'wheel' as somehow cause and effect to the tangential issue. There could be many issues raised that had roots in the 9/11 event. I suppose one could be someone setting fire to documents under subpeona, in a near by building. Or someone turns up missing and presumed was having a view of New Jersey from a Tower observation point or even a more diabolical scheme. Any or all of which became viable only when the tragedy struck.
I suppose what I'm saying is that if there exists a fact we can move back to look for a motive or cause of science absent motive for some other event to have occurred. This is the kind of thinking that is not hokey pokey but, rather, is logical and systematically derived from the direct and circumstancial evidence available.
So, in conclusion, I'd say that the 9/11 event itself was no doubt created by what is generally accepted to be true but that is simply two airplanes driven into two towers and two other planes driven into other places. Everything after that is subject to science. There may be more than one legitimate peer reviewed opinion on the events subsequent or the possiblility that some events were occassioned by the tragic event of 9/11. Why can't folks pursue these ideas?... I guess cuz folks have taken a stand that all things however remotely related to the 9/11 tragedy are like the tragedy itself; not open to further debate.

You asked for some fact that contradicts. You then indicate that interesting notion of "known to be" and "what is accepted". Are the facts that make up the ''Accepted" and "Known to be" inclusive of all information and analysis that exists and it is universally peer accepted AND None of that has been rejected for any reason? Are there no credible dissents on any element of the broader aspects of the tragegy that might merit discussion? IF not then I suppose anything else presented gets met with the wall of "already determined to be" because all that can be learned or determined has already occurred.

If I were prosecuting this, I'd not bring into jeopardy with few facts or circumstantially reasonable concepts and thereby obviate my ability to forever and ever produce new findings. I'd wait till I could go with confidence before the AT Jury. So since Jeopardy attaches don't ask me to go ahead and introduce stuff and see... :)
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: alchemize
Best define what a fact is. Troothers have a different definition of the word than the rest of humanity.

How about we simply apply Socrates' logic... "All I know for sure is that I know nothing for sure".. Defining fact as being the less final notion of currently accepted but with dissent from a minority of equally opinionated persons (and chimps).
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Originally posted by: DrPizza
Okay, I'll play along. Pick out your best fact that contradicts what is accepted. Just one fact. If we show that it *doesn't* contradict what is accepted, or that your fact is erroneous, you shut up about this here & leave the crap at some nutcase website instead, never to be brought up again by you here. But, if we we can't show your fact is wrong, or show that it doesn't contradict what's known to have happened, then I'll go into the mod forum & make an argument for reopening your thread.

Since I've no doubt whatsoever that the Towers were struck by Aircraft from which ever airline company it was and the same with the Pentagon and Earth in some field, I do not have a 9/11 conspiracy or commission need I'd like discussed but I do have a horse in a race that is tangential to all that tragedy and wouldn't mind hearing views on it.
The problems with discussing a tangential issue is folks tend to revert to the 9/11 'wheel' as somehow cause and effect to the tangential issue. There could be many issues raised that had roots in the 9/11 event. I suppose one could be someone setting fire to documents under subpeona, in a near by building. Or someone turns up missing and presumed was having a view of New Jersey from a Tower observation point or even a more diabolical scheme. Any or all of which became viable only when the tragedy struck.
I suppose what I'm saying is that if there exists a fact we can move back to look for a motive or cause of science absent motive for some other event to have occurred. This is the kind of thinking that is not hokey pokey but, rather, is logical and systematically derived from the direct and circumstancial evidence available.
So, in conclusion, I'd say that the 9/11 event itself was no doubt created by what is generally accepted to be true but that is simply two airplanes driven into two towers and two other planes driven into other places. Everything after that is subject to science. There may be more than one legitimate peer reviewed opinion on the events subsequent or the possiblility that some events were occassioned by the tragic event of 9/11. Why can't folks pursue these ideas?... I guess cuz folks have taken a stand that all things however remotely related to the 9/11 tragedy are like the tragedy itself; not open to further debate.

You asked for some fact that contradicts. You then indicate that interesting notion of "known to be" and "what is accepted". Are the facts that make up the ''Accepted" and "Known to be" inclusive of all information and analysis that exists and it is universally peer accepted AND None of that has been rejected for any reason? Are there no credible dissents on any element of the broader aspects of the tragegy that might merit discussion?
Truth be told there`s no credible dissents on any element of any aspect broader or not!!!
I am sorry to toss your argument into the shitter....but Kylebisme`s post is was more 9/11 nonsense.
yet kylebisme would claim that any dissenbt credible or not needs to be discussed. Then he might even say define "credible". Well I can tell you what credible is not and that is Kylebisme!!

IF not then I suppose anything else presented gets met with the wall of "already determined to be" because all that can be learned or determined has already occurred.-- up to now YES!! Nothing is gained from regurgitating the same old shit~!

If I were prosecuting this, I'd not bring into jeopardy with few facts or circumstantially reasonable concepts and thereby obviate my ability to forever and ever produce new findings. I'd wait till I could go with confidence before the AT Jury. So since Jeopardy attaches don't ask me to go ahead and introduce stuff and see... :)

actually you answered your own question..well sort of....
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda

actually you answered your own question..well sort of....

That was nice of me, I think

But still lingering out there is exactly what you point out. How can one present anything like say... Person x held a subpeona to produce all records related to investigation of company y... opps they got burned up or when bldg what ever came down they went poof... and that poof was in person x's best interest to not produce? It is related to 9/11 but not the terrorist part...
There may be some issues like that that have been chalked up to Bin Laden... and not to felony destruction of evidence and contempt of court.. for instance...

It could be fallacy to claim that because this happened first it caused the next event
in some cases. (post hoc ergo propter hoc)