The right anchors for our walls

tinpanalley

Golden Member
Jul 13, 2011
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I need to start putting things up on the walls in our new apartment we've moved to and a couple of light duty things were easy enough but I have to put up some shelves and things now that are 20 pounds and more and I feel like I need to have a better sense of what these walls are made of. I saw online that peeking behind a light switch could be useful but you'll see in the photos that it was hard to see much. Some other holes where cables pass were more telling.

Sadly I don't know a lot about this, but I can tell you with the few holes I've made for light duty things like I said (a small mirror, a little kitchen shelf) the walls are really sturdy, they don't crumble like that cardboard-y drywall in modern apartments. I can also tell you these walls are all original from 1931 if that helps place the material. The drill holes were super clean, the wall feels about an inch thick and hollow behind.

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So if any of you with more expertise than me could help me out with identifying the walls and then what my anchor options are. Most things will be 10-20 lbs but I do have a 35lb wood framed mirror that we'd like to put up again in this new place. A hardware store salesperson told me to use the anchors that are beige and drill themselves into the wall that you then screw into but I don't see how that kind would ever be able to cut into these walls.

Thanks for any advice!
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
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I cant tell looking at the pics. If it's original, it could be plaster, or an early form of sheetrock. No idea on the sheetrock, but plaster can be a pita to deal with, and you could cause a lot of damage if you don't do it right. I'm not even sure what right would be for your intended use, but I had reasonable luck sinking long screws into the lathwork behind it.
 

tinpanalley

Golden Member
Jul 13, 2011
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I cant tell looking at the pics. If it's original, it could be plaster, or an early form of sheetrock. No idea on the sheetrock, but plaster can be a pita to deal with, and you could cause a lot of damage if you don't do it right. I'm not even sure what right would be for your intended use, but I had reasonable luck sinking long screws into the lathwork behind it.
Right ok. To be honest I'd be thrilled if they were plaster because I find drywall gypsum board drywall just tears apart if you do the slightest thing to it. Plaster makes a lot of sense. I don't see the paper on both sides of the wall thing when I look at exposed bits. So I'm potentially looking for plaster or sheetrock anchors then?
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
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Sheetrock is just a trademark name for gypsum board or drywall. The technology's changed over the years though, and all my experience is from the 1960s+. I couldn't say if there's any 'gotchas' in earlier forms. Plaster is a loose coating applied over lathwork, and it won't support any weight on it's own. If you try to anchor directly to plaster, you can pull a big hole in the wall. Look carefully at the walls, and see how smooth and even they are. Plaster typically isn't drywall flat. It'll have bulges and dips, especially if it's been repaired.
 
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Torn Mind

Lifer
Nov 25, 2012
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Knock on the material. Plaster is rock hard and you knuckles will feel it while drywall will be a hollow thud.

Sometimes plaster that's old gets joint compound over it to refinish it.
 

tinpanalley

Golden Member
Jul 13, 2011
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Knock on the material. Plaster is rock hard and you knuckles will feel it while drywall will be a hollow thud.

Sometimes plaster that's old gets joint compound over it to refinish it.
I think we're definitely looking at plaster. I've looked at other exposed bits and there is nothing people are saying I should see if these walls were drywall. So then for plaster I can confidently use molly or toggle bolts? I don't understand with toggle bolts how you're supposed to know how much room there is behind the wall. What if the screw part is too long??
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
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I've never owned plaster myself, but lived in an apartment with it, and I sank a long woodscrew into the lathwork behind the plaster. Laths are closely spaced, so odds are you'll hit wood, but it isn't guaranteed. Might take a couple tries. I also wasn't hanging something as heavy as 35#. Taking into account I don't know much, what I'd try is making a plywood or some other thin wood square. Make it as big as you can without it making itself known behind the thing you're hanging, and run a wood screw through that into the lathwork. The idea is to distribute weight over a larger area, and keep the screw or whatever from sagging, and taking out a chunk of plaster.

Honestly though, I wouldn't listen to me. I'd get advice from someone who really knows plaster. It's easy to screwup, and not so easy making a quality repair.
 

Torn Mind

Lifer
Nov 25, 2012
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I think we're definitely looking at plaster. I've looked at other exposed bits and there is nothing people are saying I should see if these walls were drywall. So then for plaster I can confidently use molly or toggle bolts? I don't understand with toggle bolts how you're supposed to know how much room there is behind the wall. What if the screw part is too long??
I have plaster in a house but never tried hanging anything on it. Your lease has no restrictions on holes in the wall?
 

bbhaag

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2011
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Why not locate the studs behind the lath and plaster then anchor your new shelves to the studs?
 

tinpanalley

Golden Member
Jul 13, 2011
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Why not locate the studs behind the lath and plaster then anchor your new shelves to the studs?
I'm not against that at all,I just often find that the studs aren't where I want my shelves to be. Or the studs aren't useful for where I need my anchors to be.
 

Paperdoc

Platinum Member
Aug 17, 2006
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Long wood screws into the vertical STUDS behind the horizontal lath strips are pretty solid. BUT they can be hard to find! On a sheetrock wall, you use a magnet detection device to detect the heads of the screws holding the sheetrock to the studs, but that works because those heads are just barely below the front surface. With plaster over lath, the thickness of the plaster can be easily ½" to even a full inch thick, so you'll never detect the nails in the lath strips. Good starting point, though: most electrical mounting boxes in the wall were fastened to the side of a vertical stud. So on one side or another of any such box, try drilling a small hole with a long bit. If you drill through nothing but plaster, you'll feel one change from drilling plaster to nothing. If you drill though plaster and then through a lath strip, you'll feel plaster, then a change to something a little tougher (lath strips are only about ¼" thick wood), then nothing. If you drill into a stud behind all that, you'll feel you are drilling though solid wood (after the plaster) as far as you can go - the stud is 4" thick behind the lath. You may have to drill a horizontal line of several holes to find the stud, so you'll have patching to do. BUT one you find one stud, just measure horizontally in 16" steps in either direction, and try the drill probe again to confirm there is a stud there, too. NOTE that door frame and window frames do NOT always follow the 16" custom - those items are placed where they need to be.

If you want to use hollow-wall anchors, there are many. The simpler ones like this


come in various sizes depending on the screw diameter you plan, and require you drill the correct hole size (specified on the package) in the plaster. These will hold lighter objects and framed pics. I recommend this type for most light items. A plain nail into the plaster wall generally will not hold tightly, although a long nail tapped in at a 45 degree angle will hold better. But these tapered poly sleeves with ridges on them expand when you screw in the screw, and that holds them solidly in the correct-diameter hole.

Toggle Bolts like this


will hold a heavier load because those two arms spring out behind the wall, and then you tighten the screw to pull the arms against the inside of the wall. Hopefully they grab onto SOME of the lath strips. Most come with a very long bolt so they can be used with a wide range of wall thicknesses. These require that you drill a much larger hole to get the folded arms onto the wall. Be aware if you unscrew the long bolt, the inside piece falls off and you have to start with a new toggle bolt. But that makes them easy to abandon - just patch the hole.

These Toggler anchors


are all polypropylene. Their arms fold in to a small diameter to be pushed into the holes in the wall, but then spring out to the side once the unit is through the wall far enough. Then you screw in the screw. NOTE, though, that these work best when the wall thickness is close to the spacing between the front flange and the spread-out wings.

Molly Bolts


can hold up more weight than most because they spread out behind the wall a set of four arms to spread the load. That set comes with a selection of sizes and a tool. You drill a hole the right size and inert the bolt, then back out the screw a bit. Use the tool to pull the screw head out, causing the "wings" inside the wall to spread out. Note that, on the front side of the wall, the bolt has a small flange. So one it's installed, you can actually remove the screw, and the rest of the bolt stays in place. Then you can re-install the screw and tighten it up to hold you load. ALSO note that, if you are trying to abandon this device, it still shows you that front flange and hole, and you can NOT pull it out of the wall OR push it all the way in. So covering it up is a bit more work. Molloy Bolts come in various diameters for different loads, and also in various lengths. Pay special attention to the specification of the wall THICKNESS each is designed for - that's the thickness from the back of the front flange to where the innner four "arms" will bend outwards inside the wall. I never has that special tool. I just bought the right bolt size and tightened the screw to make the inner wings spread out until the screw became tight, then I unscrewed it, mounted the bracket (or whatever) on the screw, and re-installed it.
 
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tinpanalley

Golden Member
Jul 13, 2011
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Toggle Bolts like this

I think you added the wrong link?

Really appreciate all this. I still don't get with the toggle bolts how you're supposed to determine whether the ones you buy will fit all the way into your wall without knowing how deep the cavity is?
 

Paperdoc

Platinum Member
Aug 17, 2006
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That's a correct link for that type of toggle bolt.For that type, it consists of a long machine bolt and an assembly of two wings hinged on pins and a spring to a small central plate with a threaded hole bored in it. So the wings can rotate and fold up tight against the machine bolt when you insert them into the hole bored, but will spring outwards once inside the wall. Then you screw in the bolt until the wings pull back tight against the inside of the wall. Since you can NOT remove the machine bolt without losing the inside wing assembly, you MUST disassemble the two parts first, thread the bolt through the hole in your bracket or whatever, and back into the wing assembly before inserting. Note also that, with this design, the screw must be turned in tight against the wall. The machine screw head cannot be left protruding loosely from the wall to hang something on. But you can use it to mount a small hook fixture (or something bigger) on the wall. This design can deal with a wide range of wall thickness because the finished distance from the screw head on the wall front face to the wing assembly inside the wall is determined solely by the position of the wing along the bolt length, which can be anything over a long range. Other types of anchors like the Molly Bolt (metal) or the Toggler (polyethylene) are designed with fixed distances from the face of the front flange through the wall to the point where the inside wings bend out from the central shaft. The simple toggle bolt does not have any front flange, nor is its inner wing assembly attached to a fixed position along the support shaft (which really is the machine bolt).

You may find it helpful to go to hardware stores and look at these devices closely so you can see exactly how they are built and how they work.

By the way, I am inclined to agree with you about those devices that are like heavy hollow screws you turn into a hole bored into the wall - they depend on coarse threads to bite into the plaster wall and hold. I have never used them, but I, too, am suspicious of how much load they can support, based on how little actual wall plaster is used to support the load forces.
 

Paperdoc

Platinum Member
Aug 17, 2006
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You are right! here's the correct link


Note that Toggler makes many kinds of anchors, and this particular one in polypropylene with wings is the one I was talking about. I edited the original post to correct that error.
 

tinpanalley

Golden Member
Jul 13, 2011
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You are right! here's the correct link


Note that Toggler makes many kinds of anchors, and this particular one in polypropylene with wings is the one I was talking about. I edited the original post to correct that error.
Ok, but these togglers like the toggle bolts are for a specific wall thickness right? I mean, again, I'd need to know what the thickness of my walls is. I'm having trouble with that. The toggle bolts will just close themselves flat to the inside of the wall, will the togglers do that or will they just snap if they're the wrong size and forced?
 

Paperdoc

Platinum Member
Aug 17, 2006
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You are right. Those polypropylene Toggler anchors are made for a specific wall thickness, although there's a small range of mis-match allowed. If the wall is too thick, the wings simply cannot open inside the wall, so the anchor can't actually work. I do not remember clearly whether they can be found for different wall thickness specs.

The Molly Bolts likewise are designed for specific wall thicknesses. They are more tolerant of mis-matching. There is a fixed point on the spreading arms where it bends outwards and then back towards the wall interior surface. If the wall is just marginally too thick it will still work. If the wall is too thin by even ¼" (MAYBE ½"), as you keep on tightening the screw the arms nearest the wall just keep on bending back until they hit the wall interior. Molly Bolts come in several specified wall thicknesses (depends on the bend point of those arms), so often you can find the right ones IF you have some reasonable estimate of the wall thickness.

The simple toggle bolt with two wings springing out from a central long machine bolt can adapt to a large range of wall thickness. As I said, they are use-once items that require a larger hole in the wall, but they do handle heavier loads.

For light loads, and even modest shelves if you use several screws and anchors per bracket, the very common ribbed conical plastic sleeve type works and has NO limit on wall thickness - well, you need a minimum thickness for strength, but that's not your issue.
 
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