The revisionist history of the neo-conservative media... absolutely disgusting

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
You know, it's one thing to have said all that BS back in 2002/2003, but if you have to lie and whitewash to coverup your embarrassingly wrong positions pre-war, then you should have all of your journalistic credentials ripped up. From the liberal rag, 'the american conservative':

http://www.amconmag.com/2007/2007_01_15/article1.html


Selective Amnesia

The pundits who sold the Iraq War change their tune and bury their records.

by Glenn Greenwald

When political leaders make drastic mistakes, accountability is delivered in the form of elections. That occurred in November when voters removed the party principally responsible for the war in Iraq. But the invasion would not have occurred had Americans not been persuaded of its wisdom and necessity, and leading that charge was a stable of pundits and media analysts who glorified President Bush?s policies and disseminated all sorts of false information and baseless assurances.

Yet there seems to be no accountability for these pro-war pundits. On the contrary, they continue to pose as wise, responsible experts and have suffered no lost credibility, prominence, or influence. They have accomplished this feat largely by evading responsibility for their prior opinions, pretending that they were right all along or, in the most extreme cases, denying that they ever supported the war.

Michael Ledeen, a Freedom Scholar at the American Enterprise Institute and a contributing editor to National Review, chose the boldest option. In response to a Vanity Fair article about the swarms of neoconservatives abandoning the administration and the war as both become increasingly unpopular, Ledeen emphatically denied that he backed the invasion in the first place. Writing on National Review?s blog, The Corner, Ledeen claimed, ?I do not feel ?remorseful,? since I had and have no involvement with our Iraq policy. I opposed the military invasion of Iraq before it took place.?

It is difficult to overstate the audacity?and the mendacity?of Ledeen?s claim. In August 2002, he wrote a scathing article in National Review following an appearance by Brent Scowcroft on ?Face the Nation,? in which the former national security adviser argued against the invasion. Ledeen devoted his entire column to mocking Scowcroft?s concerns:

It?s always reassuring to hear Brent Scowcroft attack one?s cherished convictions; it makes one cherish them all the more. ? So it?s good news when Scowcroft comes out against the desperately-needed and long overdue war against Saddam Hussein and the rest of the terror masters.

Declaring that ?Saddam is actively supporting al Qaeda, and Abu Nidal, and Hezbollah,? Ledeen wrote, ?the Palestinian question can only be addressed effectively once the war against Saddam and his ilk has been won.? In response to Scowcroft?s concern that invading Iraq could ?turn the whole region into a caldron and destroy the War on Terror,? Ledeen retorted, ?One can only hope that we turn the region into a cauldron, and faster, please. If ever there were a region that richly deserved being cauldronized, it is the Middle East today.?

On countless occasions, Ledeen called for the invasion to start as soon as possible. In an August 2002 interview with FrontPage Magazine, when Jamie Glazov asked when the war should begin. Ledeen answered, ?Yesterday.?

He appeared on MSNBC?s ?Hardball? on Aug. 19 to complain again that the war had not started: ?I think that if President Bush is to be faulted for anything in this so far, it?s that he?s taken much too long to get on with it, much too long.?

The following month, in the Wall Street Journal, Ledeen wrote, ?Saddam Hussein is a terrible evil, and President Bush is entirely right in vowing to end his reign of terror. If we come to Baghdad, Damascus and Tehran as liberators, we can expect overwhelming popular support. It is impossible to imagine that the Iranian people would tolerate tyranny in their own country once freedom had come to Iraq. Syria would follow in short order.?

While it is difficult to be more dishonest than Ledeen, it is difficult to be more wrong than Charles Krauthammer. Prior to the invasion, Krauthammer used his various media platforms?his column at the Washington Post and his almost daily appearances on Fox News?to warn that Iraq was rapidly building up its WMD capabilities and that the U.S. risked running out of time if it did not invade immediately. He assured Americans that the war would pay for itself with oil revenues and that Iraqis would greet Americans as liberators.

In an Aug. 26, 2002 Time column, Krauthammer crystallized the issue at the heart of the Iraq discussion: ?The growing debate on invading Iraq hinges on Saddam Hussein?s weapons of mass destruction.? In his Washington Post column of Oct. 7, Krauthammer argued, ?Hawks favor war on the grounds that Saddam Hussein is reckless, tyrannical and instinctively aggressive, and that if he comes into possession of nuclear weapons in addition to the weapons of mass destruction he already has, he is likely to use them or share them with terrorists.?

According to Krauthammer, the WMD threat was so imminent that, as he argued on Fox News on Nov. 8, 2002, waiting a matter of months could mean that Saddam obtained nuclear capability: ?Under this Resolution, if Blix does not have to report back to the Security Council for 105 days, do the math. That?s the 21st of February. That is a very long time away. And it could be at the end of our window to attack.? In his Nov. 15, Post column, Krauthammer rang the alarm yet again: ?We?ve been given time, but so has Hussein. Time to hide his weapons. Time even to distribute them through Iraqi agents?aka diplomats using diplomatic pouches?into the heart of the enemy. (We still don?t know where last year?s anthrax came from.) Time to give the stuff to terrorists who, as Osama bin Laden?s tape suggests, are now prepared to make common cause with Hussein.?

Now, as the war he demanded lies in ruins, Krauthammer uses his Post column to revise his record: ?Our objectives in Iraq were twofold and always simple: Depose Saddam Hussein and replace his murderous regime with a self-sustaining, democratic government.? His hysterical obsession with WMD has been whitewashed from his pundit history, and in its place is a goal that Krauthammer barely mentioned prior to the war.

As recently as Oct. 28, 2005, he mocked foreign-policy realists for their belief that democracy could not take root in Iraqi culture, insisting that ?the overwhelming majority of Iraq?s people have repeatedly given every indication of valuing their newfound freedom.? But now, Krauthammer claims that the war he urged is failing because Iraqis are incapable of understanding what freedom is about:

[T]he problem here is Iraq?s particular political culture, raped and ruined by 30 years of Hussein?s totalitarianism. Is this America?s fault? No. It is a result of Iraq?s first democratic election. It was never certain whether the long-oppressed Shiites would have enough sense of nation and sense of compromise to govern rather than rule. The answer is now clear: United in a dominating coalition, they do not.

That the failed war is the Iraqis? fault has become a leading neoconservative excuse. On Nov. 3, Paul Mirgenoff of the Powerline blog blamed the Iraqis for electing the wrong prime minister? ?The Iraqis voted in the Shia-militia-friendly Maliki government, thereby making it difficult, if not impossible, for the U.S. to work with the current government to curb sectarian violence.? But in April, Mirgenoff lavished the Iraqis with praise for that very choice, with his ?acknowledgement that the selection of Jawad al-Maliki to be Iraq?s prime minister is good news? because Iraqis were ?resisting Iranian pressure to back Ibrahim al-Jafari? and thus ?stood up for a unified Iraq.?

This is common practice in the world of punditry: most war advocates continue to parade around as foreign-policy experts even though, with the rarest exception?an Andrew Sullivan here or there?virtually none has acknowledged his error.

The dynamic is also evident among former Bush supporters now trying to distance themselves from the unpopular president. Many who loyally supported and even venerated Bush when he was riding high now pretend to have recognized his flaws all along.

In her Oct. 26, 2006 Wall Street Journal column, Peggy Noonan tried to demonstrate how intellectually honest she is by claiming that well-connected Republicans thought the GOP deserved to lose the midterm election. For the party?s woes, she blamed the president: ?They want to fire Congress because they can?t fire President Bush.? Trying to explain Republican dissatisfaction, she wrote:

Republican political veterans go easy on ideology, but they?re tough on incompetence. They see Mr. Bush through the eyes of experience and maturity. They hate a lack of care. They see Mr. Bush as careless, and on more than Iraq?careless with old alliances, disrespectful of the opinion of mankind. ?He never listens,? an elected official who is a Bush supporter said with a shrug some months ago.

Along the way the president?s men and women confused the necessary and legitimate disciplining of a coalition with weird and excessive attempts to silence Republican critics. They have lived in a closed system. They now want to open it but don?t know how. Listening is a habit; theirs has long been to suppress.

But in early 2004, when arguing for President Bush?s re-election, Noonan employed her trademark effusiveness to glorify the president?s character and pay homage to his humility and great sense of responsibility:

Mr. Bush is the triumph of the seemingly average American man. He?s normal. He thinks in a sort of common-sense way. He speaks the language of business and sports and politics. You know him. He?s not exotic. But if there?s a fire on the block, he?ll run out and help. He?ll help direct the rig to the right house and count the kids coming out and say, ?Where?s Sally??

He?s responsible. He?s not an intellectual. Intellectuals start all the trouble in the world. And then when the fire comes they say, ?I warned Joe about that furnace.? And, ?Does Joe have children?? And ?I saw a fire once? ...

Bush ain?t that guy. Republicans love the guy who ain?t that guy. Americans love the guy who ain?t that guy

So in just over two years, Bush went from being a diligent Everyman to a know-it-all tyrant who listens to no one, stamps out dissent, and is irresponsible with his duties. Noonan now depicts Bush in this way while pretending that she never oozed praise.

But her reversal isn?t as brazen as the pro-war, pro-Bush pundits who have begun advocating the very views they spent the last three years demonizing. Ever since the U.S. invaded, those who pointed out that we were achieving little more than mass death, destruction of American credibility, conversions of moderate Muslims into extremists, and a serious weakening of our military were vilified as America-hating terrorist allies who wanted us to lose. Those who simply pointed out that the war effort wasn?t going according to promise were derided as cut-and-run ?defeatocrats? who lacked the intestinal fortitude to fight.

Yet pundits who equated dissent with treason are now declaring the war to be a failure and are advocating withdrawal without bothering to reconcile their current views with their previous allegations.

New York Post columnist Ralph Peters wrote in November 2005 that a failure to see the mission through to completion would tell the world that ?Americans are cowards who can be attacked with impunity.? He further argued that ?a U.S. surrender would turn al Qaeda into an Islamic superpower? and that ?If we run away from our enemies overseas, our enemies will make their way to us. Quit Iraq, and far more than 2,000 Americans are going to die.?

But on Nov. 2, 2006, Peters wrote a column in USA Today announcing, ?Iraq is failing. No honest observer can conclude otherwise. If they continue to revel in fratricidal slaughter, we must leave.? The same columnist who warned just a year ago in the most alarmist tone that withdrawal would gravely endanger the U.S., now claims that ?Contrary to the prophets of doom, the United States wouldn?t be weakened by our withdrawal, should it come to that.?

All of these self-proclaimed super-patriots who spent the last three years shrieking that anyone who criticizes the war is a friend of the terrorists are now being forced to admit that the war is unwinnable. But rather than acknowledging their reversal, they seek to erase the public record, both to salvage their reputations and to obscure the intensity of their attacks against those who were right. Such vitriol against critics muted debate in the first place and ensured that we stayed in Iraq, pretending all along that things were going great.

There is nothing wrong with acknowledging one?s errors and changing one?s mind. When genuine, this should be encouraged. But these pundits are not doing that. They know that they were on the wrong side of the most vital issue of the last decade, and in trying to reverse their predictions reveal themselves to be deeply flawed not only in judgment but also in character.


Money Quote:

This is common practice in the world of punditry: most war advocates continue to parade around as foreign-policy experts even though, with the rarest exception?an Andrew Sullivan here or there?virtually none has acknowledged his error.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Phokus
You know, it's one thing to have said all that BS back in 2002/2003, but if you have to lie and whitewash to coverup your embarrassingly wrong positions pre-war, then you should have all of your journalistic credentials ripped up. From the liberal rag, 'the american conservative':

http://www.amconmag.com/2007/2007_01_15/article1.html


Selective Amnesia

The pundits who sold the Iraq War change their tune and bury their records.

by Glenn Greenwald


New York Post columnist Ralph Peters wrote in November 2005 that a failure to see the mission through to completion would tell the world that ?Americans are cowards who can be attacked with impunity.? He further argued that ?a U.S. surrender would turn al Qaeda into an Islamic superpower? and that ?If we run away from our enemies overseas, our enemies will make their way to us. Quit Iraq, and far more than 2,000 Americans are going to die.?

But on Nov. 2, 2006, Peters wrote a column in USA Today announcing, ?Iraq is failing. No honest observer can conclude otherwise. If they continue to revel in fratricidal slaughter, we must leave.? The same columnist who warned just a year ago in the most alarmist tone that withdrawal would gravely endanger the U.S., now claims that ?Contrary to the prophets of doom, the United States wouldn?t be weakened by our withdrawal, should it come to that.?

All of these self-proclaimed super-patriots who spent the last three years shrieking that anyone who criticizes the war is a friend of the terrorists are now being forced to admit that the war is unwinnable.

But rather than acknowledging their reversal, they seek to erase the public record, both to salvage their reputations and to obscure the intensity of their attacks against those who were right.

Such vitriol against critics muted debate in the first place and ensured that we stayed in Iraq, pretending all along that things were going great.

There is nothing wrong with acknowledging one?s errors and changing one?s mind. When genuine, this should be encouraged. But these pundits are not doing that.

They know that they were on the wrong side of the most vital issue of the last decade, and in trying to reverse their predictions reveal themselves to be deeply flawed not only in judgment but also in character.

They are just doinjg the same thing as the resident Republicans in here.

In fact most of them now say they are not Republicans and never were.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Yet pundits who equated dissent with treason are now declaring the war to be a failure and are advocating withdrawal without bothering to reconcile their current views with their previous allegations.
Well I guess the one downside of free speech is that we can't really stop the flood of pundits, cheerleaders and experts who either rally behind or against a particular political ideology.

The article clearly points out that many of these pundits have changed opinion on Bush...from being avid supporters of Bush as an "common" or "everyman" to a blundering, arrogant and impetuous buffoon.

Now, would you rather these "experts" and "pundits" continue to blindly support Bush? Isn't it better that they begin to criticize the President, and question his decisions, rather then make excuses for them?


 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Phokus
You know, it's one thing to have said all that BS back in 2002/2003, but if you have to lie and whitewash to coverup your embarrassingly wrong positions pre-war, then you should have all of your journalistic credentials ripped up. From the liberal rag, 'the american conservative':

http://www.amconmag.com/2007/2007_01_15/article1.html


Selective Amnesia

The pundits who sold the Iraq War change their tune and bury their records.

by Glenn Greenwald


New York Post columnist Ralph Peters wrote in November 2005 that a failure to see the mission through to completion would tell the world that ?Americans are cowards who can be attacked with impunity.? He further argued that ?a U.S. surrender would turn al Qaeda into an Islamic superpower? and that ?If we run away from our enemies overseas, our enemies will make their way to us. Quit Iraq, and far more than 2,000 Americans are going to die.?

But on Nov. 2, 2006, Peters wrote a column in USA Today announcing, ?Iraq is failing. No honest observer can conclude otherwise. If they continue to revel in fratricidal slaughter, we must leave.? The same columnist who warned just a year ago in the most alarmist tone that withdrawal would gravely endanger the U.S., now claims that ?Contrary to the prophets of doom, the United States wouldn?t be weakened by our withdrawal, should it come to that.?

All of these self-proclaimed super-patriots who spent the last three years shrieking that anyone who criticizes the war is a friend of the terrorists are now being forced to admit that the war is unwinnable.

But rather than acknowledging their reversal, they seek to erase the public record, both to salvage their reputations and to obscure the intensity of their attacks against those who were right.

Such vitriol against critics muted debate in the first place and ensured that we stayed in Iraq, pretending all along that things were going great.

There is nothing wrong with acknowledging one?s errors and changing one?s mind. When genuine, this should be encouraged. But these pundits are not doing that.

They know that they were on the wrong side of the most vital issue of the last decade, and in trying to reverse their predictions reveal themselves to be deeply flawed not only in judgment but also in character.

They are just doinjg the same thing as the resident Republicans in here.

In fact most of them now say they are not Republicans and never were.

O really? Who for example?
 

jimkyser

Senior member
Nov 13, 2004
547
0
0
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Yet pundits who equated dissent with treason are now declaring the war to be a failure and are advocating withdrawal without bothering to reconcile their current views with their previous allegations.
Well I guess the one downside of free speech is that we can't really stop the flood of pundits, cheerleaders and experts who either rally behind or against a particular political ideology.

The article clearly points out that many of these pundits have changed opinion on Bush...from being avid supporters of Bush as an "common" or "everyman" to a blundering, arrogant and impetuous buffoon.

Now, would you rather these "experts" and "pundits" continue to blindly support Bush? Isn't it better that they begin to criticize the President, and question his decisions, rather then make excuses for them?
Changing their minds is fine, part of growing as a human is learning new things and changing you perspective of the world based on that new knowledge. The disgusting part is that many of them are denying they held and strongly stated their previous opinion.
 

jimkyser

Senior member
Nov 13, 2004
547
0
0
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
They are just doinjg the same thing as the resident Republicans in here.

In fact most of them now say they are not Republicans and never were.
Hey, they could have been like TastesLikeChicken. He repeated all the pro-Bush talking points in almost every post he made but claimed to be a lifelong Democrat. He was just trying to counter the rabid liberal wing of the Democratic party, you know.
 

blackllotus

Golden Member
May 30, 2005
1,875
0
0
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
They are just doinjg the same thing as the resident Republicans in here.

In fact most of them now say they are not Republicans and never were.

O really? Who for example?

Don't quote me on this but I *think* that Limbaugh did something similar to what Dave described.
 

jackschmittusa

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
5,972
1
0
This is a real problem in this country today. Not only are people loath to admit they were wrong, or made a mistake, sadly, they never even take in under consideration that to do so might be necessary to maintain their integrety.
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,978
0
0
Selective Amnesia

Yeah we could all learn from watching the left admit they were wrong about UN corruption being the reason UN approval wasn't granted. BTW the US was the FIRST country to ask the UN if they could go to war, and they are still the ONLY country to have ever done so. I still think we set the proper precedent in doing so, but I certainly don't think it is required, the approval or even the need to ask.

The left cries about the loss of life, yet had no issues with 10-15k + Iraqis dying EVERY MONTH due to preventable neglect. Why did the left watch that go on for years and years and say nothing?

Imagine if Bush brutally oppressed Americans just as Saddam did to Iraqis. Imagine the UN security council actively allowing him to continue doing so, if only to line their own pockets. Would the left be calling for Bush's head and for reform in the UN, you bet your ass. But when Saddam was doing it, that was OK.


Was Blix wrong in stating in his final report that vast quantities of WMD were STILL unaccounted for, and are to this day? It was great to see the left admit their mistake, oh wait, they are still claiming there NEVER were ANY WMDs.

Was Powell wrong about senior AQ butthead actively operating within Iraq? Of course he was, that guy moved in the day after we liberated Iraq and IMMEDIATELY built a massive country wide network.

I am a liberal thinkng person generally, Iraq was the only the 2nd thing I supported about the Bush II regime. The other was making it easier for generic drug companies to get earlier access to drug recipes.

The way the left has spun this event is no less disgusting than what the GOP did to Clinton. Anyone dumb enough to blindly believe one side over the other, 100%, no questions asked shouldn't even bother posting. I know what a democrat and a republican think, I know where they stand on the issues, got an idea of your own?

I just think that when you consider the world as a whole it can't be summed up into two diametrically opposed but still all encompassing and supposedly infallible paradigms. The left should have been focused on the corruption in the UN and the suffering it was inflicting on the citizens of Iraq, who they claim to worry about so much TODAY.


The right distancing themselves from a wounded President isn't a conviction on their supposed erroneous position on Iraq, it's politics as usual. This could have happened with any issue, did you see Clinton campaiging heavily for Gore or was he kept out of the fray?
With all these sheep AT should be the world leader in wool production......
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
Exquisite doublespeak, Alistair7, and rather wide-ranging, as well...

"The left cries about the loss of life, yet had no issues with 10-15k + Iraqis dying EVERY MONTH due to preventable neglect. Why did the left watch that go on for years and years and say nothing?"

False. There were more than a few voices opposed to the ongoing sanctions, mine among them. It wasn't the coruption that caused the suffering, but rather the sanctions themselves... Corruption was merely an exploitation, a byproduct.

"Was Blix wrong in stating in his final report that vast quantities of WMD were STILL unaccounted for, and are to this day? It was great to see the left admit their mistake, oh wait, they are still claiming there NEVER were ANY WMDs. "

False attribution to both Blix and the so-called "Left". Blix stated that his work would be finished in a matter of months, which the Bush Admin denied him with the invasion... and nobody of any note has denied the existence of Iraqi wmd's prior to the first gulf war... poor accounting by the Iraqis put them in the position of having to prove a negative, which is, by definition, impossible. After all the searching, misdirections and other fol-de-rol from the Rightwing, any truly rational person can only come to one conclusion about the missing material- it was destroyed in the wake of GW1, just as the Iraqis claimed all along. There is no evidence whatsoever to support any other claim, and never really was. Applying Occam's razor and the basic tenet that the burden of proof lies with the accuser can yield no other conclusion.

And this pretty much takes the prize-

"Was Powell wrong about senior AQ butthead actively operating within Iraq? Of course he was, that guy moved in the day after we liberated Iraq and IMMEDIATELY built a massive country wide network."

First off, it is highly likely that Powell and the rest of the Admin knowingly lied about the Iraqi situation. Knowingly lied. While their competence is pretty low, they're not complete idiots. Prior to the invasion, the Iraqi govt prevented Al-Q from actively operating within their borders. Musim fundie militants were some of the Baathists' favorite targets, basically the mortal enemies of secular socialism, one variant of which is Baathism.. The chaos after the invasion left an opening which was exploited, and that chaos was the direct result of the Admin's failure to properly assess the needs of occupation and reconstruction. Shinseki didn't want 400K troops to beat the Iraqi military, but rather to pacify the countryside afterwards, something that 150K troops obviously hasn't been able to accomplish.

And, I suppose, it's to be expected that the pundits of the Right are attempting to disassociate themselves from the Iraqi debacle. Too bad for them that it's largely on record, with Ledeen's flipflopping being extremely odious. It just serves to discredit them further, which is as it should be.

It really started when they attempted to disassociate themselves from the false rationale for invasion, as we've seen from the Vice-Prez himself... from there, it's been pretty much downhill for them ever since-

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/007026.php









 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,978
0
0
"False. There were more than a few voices opposed to the ongoing sanctions, mine among them. It wasn't the coruption that caused the suffering, but rather the sanctions themselves... Corruption was merely an exploitation, a byproduct."

I was speaking of individual or small numbers of voices, I was speaking of the collective majority clamoring for action, there was no clamor. 10-15+ Iraqis died every month during sanctions due to neglect. UN oversight was supposed to guarantee wouldn't happen ensure IT WOULDN'T HAPPEN. Instead of doing that they took Saddams $, fed him weapons and luxury goods, and protected him with their votes on the security council, that's hardcore corruption. You make it sound as if there was no sanctions Saddam would have graciously showered his people with everything they could need or desire, was it like that before sanctions? No you had a small minority living large at the BRUTAL expense of the majority.





"After all the searching, misdirections and other fol-de-rol from the Rightwing, any truly rational person can only come to one conclusion about the missing material- it was destroyed in the wake of GW1, just as the Iraqis claimed all along."

Would you like the link to Blix's final report? The direct quote I attributed? The burden of proof was always on Saddam's shoulders, one he accepted as condition of the cease fire. There was a stated amount of WMD, his own account, actual weapons that existed that were never produced or shown to be disposed of under any circumstance. Would you like to know the exact amounts of certain chemicals that Blix stated are still unnaccounted for, or would you prefer I convert that to actual killing potential?





"First off, it is highly likely that Powell and the rest of the Admin knowingly lied about the Iraqi situation. Knowingly lied. While their competence is pretty low, they're not complete idiots. Prior to the invasion, the Iraqi govt prevented Al-Q from actively operating within their borders."

Highly likely you have no proof anyone knowingly lied about anything. Highly likely the entire international community was in solid agreement of the belief Saddam still retained WMD. Even those on the security council who objected to a resumption of military action, (as accorded under the initial cease fire in the even of Saddams noncompliance) were in agreement.

AQ operated within Iraq before the invasion, in areas Saddam could not reach. That was where Powell was speaking of, those camps were found BTW.




I don't care if/who/how certain politicians want to remain politically viable. They will do that on ANY issue, Iraq is not significant unless you are a bah bah bahing democrat.
My point is that the left has not, will not give up their spin or admit their mistakes and outright false claims of "facts". From an objective standpoint, the left really looks like the biggest loser in this one, both politically and morally.

Now would you like to hear some of MY really liberal ideas/positions? They don't fit into a party platform though, sry......
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
"the entire international community was in solid agreement of the belief Saddam still retained WMD. "

:laugh:

:laugh:
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,978
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
"the entire international community was in solid agreement of the belief Saddam still retained WMD. "

:laugh:

:laugh:

I'd like a link, any of the UN security council objectors stating otherwise, ANY UN Security council member for that matter, tick tock.....

Hi old pal ! Wheres my link???????

Exactly, Bush wasn't wrong, you were, still are lol, sad. Is he smarter than you or something, must be ;)
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,978
0
0
Conjur maybe you can help me, I'm trying to figure out who/what I am?

I think law abiding citizens should be allowed to carry a gun if they choose, without permits/registration.

I think if you kill someone you should be executed or spend your life in jail. 3 violent crimes of any nature, same thing. I don't think nonviolent drug offenders should be incarcerated(@70% of all US prisoners).

I think abortion should be legal, but only if both the mother AND father consent. The father should also have the right to force birth and recieve child support regardless of the womens wishes.

I think that everyone should recieve federal health care, good crap too, like what congress gives ITSELF, lol.

I think you should be able to drive your car or motorcyle without a seat belt or helmet.

When I look at Israeli/Palestinian relations I see two parties willingly at fault.

How should I vote?


 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
Remarkable how so much can be read into Blix's statements by true believers. I'll link it myself-

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/07/sprj.irq.un.transcript.blix/

"How much time would it take to resolve the key remaining disarmament tasks? While cooperation can -- cooperation can and is to be immediate, disarmament, and at any rate verification of it, cannot be instant. Even with a proactive Iraqi attitude induced by continued outside pressure, it will still take some time to verify sites and items, analyze documents, interview relevant persons and draw conclusions. It will not take years, nor weeks, but months."

The rest of the report pretty much states that despite reservations, accusations, concerns and whatever that they'd found nothing so far, and really didn't anticipate finding anything, either...

And this, this is magnificent-

"AQ operated within Iraq before the invasion, in areas Saddam could not reach. That was where Powell was speaking of, those camps were found BTW."

Yeh, in the Kurdish zone, basically under American protection. Powell forgot to mention that part... Essentially, the US made it possible for Al-Q to operate within Iraq, both before and after the Invasion... Gotta love it... and the twisted sense of partisanship defending it...
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Alistar7
Originally posted by: conjur
"the entire international community was in solid agreement of the belief Saddam still retained WMD. "

:laugh:

:laugh:
I'd like a link, any of the UN security council objectors stating otherwise, ANY UN Security council member for that matter, tick tock.....

Hi old pal ! Wheres my link???????

Exactly, Bush wasn't wrong, you were, still are lol, sad. Is he smarter than you or something, must be ;)
Yeah, the US is awash in the swept up WMDs found in Iraq.

:roll:
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,978
0
0
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Remarkable how so much can be read into Blix's statements by true believers. I'll link it myself-

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/07/sprj.irq.un.transcript.blix/

"How much time would it take to resolve the key remaining disarmament tasks? While cooperation can -- cooperation can and is to be immediate, disarmament, and at any rate verification of it, cannot be instant. Even with a proactive Iraqi attitude induced by continued outside pressure, it will still take some time to verify sites and items, analyze documents, interview relevant persons and draw conclusions. It will not take years, nor weeks, but months."

The rest of the report pretty much states that despite reservations, accusations, concerns and whatever that they'd found nothing so far, and really didn't anticipate finding anything, either...

And this, this is magnificent-

"AQ operated within Iraq before the invasion, in areas Saddam could not reach. That was where Powell was speaking of, those camps were found BTW."

Yeh, in the Kurdish zone, basically under American protection. Powell forgot to mention that part... Essentially, the US made it possible for Al-Q to operate within Iraq, both before and after the Invasion... Gotta love it... and the twisted sense of partisanship defending it...


It was not with US or Kurdish protection, the Kurds were fighting them (with our help) before the war started. Wow.


Blix comments forthcoming, love your selective quotes, ill fill in the important part. I'll look up his actual final report to the UN security council and the relevant quotes, after I post this quick link:

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/2/14/151151.shtml

NewsMax.com Wires
Saturday, Feb. 15, 2003
UNITED NATIONS ? Although inspectors have found no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, proscribed items including "1,000 tons of chemical agent" have not been accounted for, and Iraq still needs to be more cooperative and forthcoming, chief U.N. weapons inspector Hans Blix said Friday.

Would you like more? Would you like to know exactly how many times Saddam violated agreements he willingly entered, any ONE of which was cause enough to lead to a resumption of hostility as provided under the intitial cease fire. Would you like the passages from his last report to the council outlining the extensive amount of effort that was made to not give clear and unfettered access?

But he said that the inspectors themselves were not yet convinced. "The inspectors, for their part, must base their reports only on the evidence which they can themselves examine and present publicly."


Weapons UNNACCOUNTED FOR, known to exist as stated by Saddam himself, cannot be examined, they are unnaccounted for, understand. They didn't anticipate finding them either, mostly due to Iraqi noncompliance. Basically when the US said we've had enough of the UN protecting him while he does nothing, were taking action, Saddam finally agreed to fully comply. Guess what, it was too late, he had years and years to do what Blix himself said would only take months given free access.

Now, the important question, where is that 1,000 pounds of chemical weapons? They are known to have existed, they were just never produced by Saddam to Blix. There was never any evidence submitted, let alone substantiated, that they were destroyed.

Please tell me how in your mind did they just disappear, do you just forget them? Do you just ignore their existence when it is proven to you, like now? Where are they mr true believer?

 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
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:shocked:Ill take that link anytime conjur or you got nothing as usual? Ill give you a hint, doesn't exist.

You know as well as I pre war the international community was in agreement about Saddams probablility of still having retained WMDs. If not please PROVE me WRONG, google should take less than a second to find it for you, good luck. once again, your on the clock, tick tock,,,,,


lmao this is so much easier when your not blinded by your bias, an objective mind using facts and logic is so much more enjoyable than being a sheep.....



You guys are so blinded by your anti bush feelings you don't care about anything else, especially facts. Don't get me wrong, bush is an asshat. When I think of that fat surplus Clinton left us and our budgets now it makes my blood boil. Thank god it went to tax cuts for the wealthy....
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
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The funniest thing is this entire thread, it's premise and it's course. A bunch of blinded left wingers screaming about the right hand spin cuz theres is so much better, classic, post it at the top forever....

 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: Alistar7
Originally posted by: conjur
"the entire international community was in solid agreement of the belief Saddam still retained WMD. "

:laugh:

:laugh:
I'd like a link, any of the UN security council objectors stating otherwise, ANY UN Security council member for that matter, tick tock.....

Hi old pal ! Wheres my link???????

Exactly, Bush wasn't wrong, you were, still are lol, sad. Is he smarter than you or something, must be ;)
Love the way you're moving the goal posts. You claim that "the entire international community was in solid agreement of the belief Saddam still retained WMD." When Conjur challenges your claim, you suddenly narrow the scope to "UN security council", and then try to insist he bears the burden of proof. Sorry, Ali, it's your claim, and your burden of proof.

It's a specious argument in any case. The U.N. inspectors were there to determine whether Iraq was compliant. The U.N. had not reached a conclusion. Bush forced Blix out when it became apparent Iraq was telling the truth and the Bush administration was not. Bush knew that if he lost his WMD boogeyman, he would no longer be able to cow Congress into supporting his attack.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Alistar7
Conjur maybe you can help me, I'm trying to figure out who/what I am?

I think law abiding citizens should be allowed to carry a gun if they choose, without permits/registration.

I think if you kill someone you should be executed or spend your life in jail. 3 violent crimes of any nature, same thing. I don't think nonviolent drug offenders should be incarcerated(@70% of all US prisoners).

I think abortion should be legal, but only if both the mother AND father consent. The father should also have the right to force birth and recieve child support regardless of the womens wishes.

I think that everyone should recieve federal health care, good crap too, like what congress gives ITSELF, lol.

I think you should be able to drive your car or motorcyle without a seat belt or helmet.

When I look at Israeli/Palestinian relations I see two parties willingly at fault.

How should I vote?
American
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,978
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Ok ill stick with the original entire international community, im sure he can find some small island that was confident Saddam didn't have WMD. But all of the major players, ALL of the council, and anyone significant enough to get a damn quote in the paper agreed. I'll take ANY that didn't, which I'm stil waiting for, patiently..... lol


The U.N. inspectors were there to determine whether Iraq was compliant. The U.N. had not reached a conclusion.

Saddam was cited with over 400 offenses of non compliance, what conclusion would you draw? One was enough, agreed to by Saddam, under the initial cease fire to resume military action.

Bush forced Blix out when it became apparent Iraq was telling the truth and the Bush administration was not. Bush knew that if he lost his WMD boogeyman, he would no longer be able to cow Congress into supporting his attack.

The UN was in charge of Blix, not Bush. He submitted a final report to the UN before the war. Iraq was telling the truth?

"UNITED NATIONS ? Although inspectors have found no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, proscribed items including "1,000 tons of chemical agent" have not been accounted for, and Iraq still needs to be more cooperative and forthcoming, chief U.N. weapons inspector Hans Blix said Friday."

Sounds like someone lost 1000 pounds of chemical weapons, not a boogeyman. Oh that's right, they never really existed, they are just "unaccounted for".

If I come to your house and steal your car tonight when you are sleeping, will you wake up tomorrow and swear it never existed because you cannot see it anymore? What if I tell you I have it, but I never give it to you or prove to you it was destroyed. Would you believe it didn't even exist at that point? That's what you are doing right now, quite comical......


 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
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www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Alistar7
If I come to your house and steal your car tonight when you are sleeping, will you wake up tomorrow and swear it never existed because you cannot see it anymore? What if I tell you I have it, but I never give it to you or prove to you it was destroyed. Would you believe it didn't even exist at that point? That's what you are doing right now, quite comical......

Oh please, your heroes lost, get over it.
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,978
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The Bush administration began a military buildup in the region, and pushed for the passage of UN Security Council Resolution 1441, which brought weapons inspectors led by Hans Blix and Mohamed ElBaradei to Iraq. Saddam Hussein subsequently allowed UN inspectors to access some Iraqi sites, while the U.S. government continued to say that Iraq was being obstructionist, due to the fact that there were numerous sites made unavailable for inspection. The lack of full cooperation led Blix to personally admonish Saddam for "cat and mouse" games and warn Iraq of "serious consequences" if it attempted to hinder or delay his U.N.-appointed mission.

Looks like bush BROUGHT Blix in, not took him out, just some more facts you might to ignore. Don't read the last part that is italicized, or just ignore it altogehter, doesnt exist, well just keep it right over here with the 1000 pounds of chemical weapons.


want the link? lol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_disarmament_crisis

I know, GOP spin site....


 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Alistar7
Don't read the last part that is italicized, or just ignore it altogehter, doesnt exist, well just keep it right over here with the 1000 pounds of chemical weapons.

A lousy 1000 lbs of old chem weapons is your justification for the Iraq cluster fcvk?

You're sick, get medical help fast.