The real story on the USA's treatment of Cuba.

philipuso

Member
Dec 19, 2002
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Anybody need any more evidence that the USA is an empire???

Subsection to whole question and answer below:
The real crime of Cuba was the successes, in terms of things like health care and feeding people, and the general threat of a "demonstra­tion effect" that follows from that-that is, the threat that people in other countries might try to do the same things. That's what they call a rotten apple that might spoil the barrel, or a virus that might infect the region­--and then our whole imperial system begins to fall apart.

"Understanding Power" by Noam Chomsky
WOMAN: Mr. Chomsky, I'm wondering, how do you explain our embargo on Cuba-why is it still going on, and can you talk a bit about the policies that have been behind it over the years?

Answer: Well, Cuba is a country the United States has considered that it owns ever since the 1820s. In fact, one of the earliest parts of U.S. foreign rela­tions history was the decision by Thomas Jefferson, John Quincy Adams and others to try to annex Cuba. At the time the British navy was in the way, and they were a real deterrent, so the plan, in Adams's words, was to wait until Cuba falls into our hands like a ripe fruit, by the laws of polit­ical gravitation.28 Well, finally it did, and the U.S. ran it-with the usual effects-all the way up until 1959.
In January 1959, Cuba had a popular nationalist revolution. We now know from declassified U.S. government documents that the formal deci­sion to overthrow Castro was made by the American government in March
1960-that's very important, because at that point there were no Russians around, and Castro was in fact considered anti-Communist by the U.S. [Castro did not align with the Soviet Union until May 1961, after the U.S. had severed diplomatic relations with Cuba in January and had sponsored an invasion attempt in April.] 29 So the reason for deciding to overthrow the Castro government can't have had anything to do with Cuba being a Rus­sian outpost in the Cold War-Cuba was just taking an independent path, which has always been unacceptable to powerful interests in the United States.
Strafing and sabotage operations began as early as October 1959. Then, soon after his inauguration in 1961, John F. Kennedy launched a terrorist campaign against them which is without even remote comparison in the history of international terrorism [Operation MONGOOSE].3o And in February 1962, we instituted the embargo-which has had absolutely dev­astating effects on the Cuban population.
Remember, Cuba's a tiny country right in the U.S. sphere of influence­--it's not going to be able to survive on its own for very long against a mon­ster. But over the years, it was able to survive-barely-thanks to Soviet support: the Soviet Union was the one place Cuba could turn to to try to re­sist the United States, and the Soviets did provide them with sort of a mar­gin for survival. And we should be realistic about what happened there: many important and impressive things have been achieved, but it's also been pretty tyrannical, so there's been an upside and a downside. However, the country certainly was succeeding in terms that are meaningful to other populations in the region-I mean, just compare Cuba with Haiti or the Dominican Republic right next door, or with any other place in Latin America which the United States has controlled: the difference is obvious, and that's exactly what the United States has always been concerned about.
Look, the real crime of Cuba was never the repression, which, whatever you think about it, doesn't even come close to the kind of repression we have traditionally supported, and in fact implemented, in nearby countries: not even close. The real crime of Cuba was the successes, in terms of things like health care and feeding people, and the general threat of a "demonstra­tion effect" that follows from that-that is, the threat that people in other countries might try to do the same things. That's what they call a rotten apple that might spoil the barrel, or a virus that might infect the region­--and then our whole imperial system begins to fall apart. I mean, for thirty years, Cuba has been doing things which are simply intolerable-such as sending tens of thousands of doctors to support suffering people around the Third World, or developing biotechnology in a poor country with no options, or having health services roughly at the level of the advanced coun­tries and way out of line with the rest of Latin America.31 These things are not tolerable to American power-they'd be intolerable anywhere in the Third World, and they're multiply intolerable in a country which is ex­pected to be a U.S. colony. That's Cuba's real crime.32
In fact, when the Soviet Empire was disintegrating and the supposed So­viet threat in Cuba had evaporated beyond the point that anyone could possibly take it seriously, an interesting event took place, though nobody in the u.S. media seemed to notice it. For the last thirty years the story had al­ways been, "We have to defend ourselves against Cuba because it's an out­post of the Russians." Okay, all of a sudden the Russians weren't there anymore-so what happens? All of a sudden it turned out that we really had Cuba under an embargo because of our love for democracy and human rights, not because they're an outpost of Communism about to destroy us-now it turns out that's why we have to keep torturing them-and no­body in the American press even questions this development. The propa­ganda system didn't skip a beat: check back and try to find anybody who even noticed this little curiosity.
Then in 1992, a liberal Democrat, Robert Torricelli, pushed a bill through Congress called the Cuban Democracy Act, which made the em­bargo still tighter-it forbids foreign-based US. subsidiaries from trading with Cuba, it allows seizure of cargo from foreign ships that trade with Cuba if they enter u.S. waters, and so on. In fact, this proposal by the lib­eral Democrat Torricelli was so obviously in conflict with international law that George Bush himself even vetoed it-until he was out-flanked from the right during the Presidential campaign by Bill Clinton, and finally agreed to accept it. Well, the so-called "Cuban Democracy Act" was immediately de­nounced by I think every major US. ally. At the UN., the entire world con­demned it, with the exception of two countries-the United States and Israel; the New York Times apparently never discovered that fact. The pre­ceding year, there had been a U.N. vote on the embargo in which the United States managed to get three votes for its side-itself, Israel, and Romania. But Romania apparently dropped off this year.
But the U.S. makes its own rules-we don't care what happens at the UN., or what international law requires. As our UN. ambassador, Made­leine Albright, put it in a debate: "if possible we will act multilaterally, if necessary we will act unilaterally"-violently, she meant.33 And that's the way it goes when you're the chief Mafia Don: if you can get support from others, fine, otherwise you just do it yourself-because you don't follow any rules. Well, that's us, and the Cuba case illustrates it about as well as you could.
The enhanced embargo has been quite effective: about 90 percent of the aid and trade it's cut off has been food and medicine-and that's had the predictable consequences. In fact, there have been several articles in leading medical journals recently which describe some of the effects: the health sys­tem, which was extremely good, is collapsing; there's a tremendous short­age of medicines; malnutrition is increasing; rare diseases that haven't been seen since Japanese prison camps in the Second World War are reappearing; infant mortality is going up; general health conditions are going down.34 In other words, it's working fine-we're "enhancing democracy." Maybe we'll ultimately make them as well off as Haiti or Nicaragua, or one of these other countries we've been taking care of all these years.
I mean, putting sanctions on a country in general is a very questionable operation-particularly when those sanctions are not being supported by the population that's supposedly being helped. But this embargo is a partic­ularly brutal one, a really major crime in my opinion. And there's a lot that can be done to stop it, if enough people in the United States actually get to­gether and start doing something about it. In fact, by now even sectors of the U.S. business community are beginning to have second thoughts about the embargo-they're getting a little concerned that they might be cut out of potentially lucrative business operations if the other rich countries of the world stop obeying our rules and just begin violating it.35 So there's a lot of room for change on this issue-it's certainly something that ought to be pressed very strongly right now.
 

compuwiz1

Admin Emeritus Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
27,111
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If we loosened up the reins on Cuba, we'd have a problem that would make illegal immigration from Mexico look like a pimple on an elephant's ass. :shocked:
 

Ronstang

Lifer
Jul 8, 2000
12,493
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Another great wonderful country that is so much better than the US that it's citizens risk life, limb, and drowning to get to Florida on any make shift boat they can get their hands on.
 

philipuso

Member
Dec 19, 2002
54
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You must ask yourselves who is responsible for putting the Cuban people in that position of wanting to vacate the island???

An island that doesn't have the full spectrum and abundance of natural resources to solely take care of it's own population just like Japan. An island geographically right next door to a super that has imposed an embargo on it since 1962. Sanctions that have since been tightened so no other nations can trade with Cuba.

Forget reparations for african-americans. The cuban people deserve reparations for our actions taken against them.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
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Originally posted by: philipuso
You must ask yourselves -- no we don`t have to ask ourselves!! Thats a fallicy and your opinion!! Nothing moreWho is responsible for putting the Cuban people in that position of wanting to vacate the island??? -- surely you can`t be blaming us for the problems and choices that the Cuban leadership has made?

An island that doesn't have the full spectrum and abundance of natural resources to solely take care of it's own population just like Japan. An island geographically right next door to a super that has imposed trade sanctions on it since 1960. Sanctions that have since been tightened so no other nations can trade with Cuba.

Forget reparations for african-americans. The cuban people deserve reparations for our actions taken against them.]--- one opinion that is NOT agreed on by the majority of Cubans living in the United States!!
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Originally posted by: compuwiz1
If we loosened up the reins on Cuba, we'd have a problem that would make illegal immigration from Mexico look like a pimple on an elephant's ass. :shocked:

That'd be a neat trick, since the estimated number of Mexican illegal immigrants in the US is larger than the entire population of Cuba.

Not to mention the ease with which they can sneak into the US - only facing an ocean and our coast guard.

Noobtastic, of course, demonstrates the sort of ideological brainwashing that prevents any rationality - call someone a name that's simply meaningless name-calling and refuse to look at the issue. There are times people deserve not to be listened to by long-time consistent abuse, like Ann Coulter - but her arguments were debunked countless times. This is simply blind ideology from Noobtastic.

You can disagree with Chomsky, or agree, but either way, Noobtastic's post is an attack on any rational position. for example, it can be argued that the US's response was more simply an error of the excesses of the times, when 'independent' governments much less ones with a 'stealth communist' like Castro were regularly treated like enemies, while brutal right-wing regimes were embraced. JFK took steps to liberalize our policies in general on that, but did not really do so with Cuba, though there were some reports he was ready to pursue relations. It's hard to know his thinking, since some politically risky policies were possibly deferred until after his re-election, and clearly kept pretty quiet - especially his plans on Vietnam, which obviously had to be kept confidential because of the effects on both the election and the effect on the war.
 

philipuso

Member
Dec 19, 2002
54
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I must ask. Does the US have the right to impose it's own agenda on any sovereign nation??? Does any sovereign nation have the right to impose it's will on us??

When your own tiny sovereign country is right next door to a super power, do you open up the door to the free press??? Allowing your neighbor to put out as many tv & radio channels as possible to bury your people with foreign propaganda.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Originally posted by: philipuso
You must ask yourselves -- no we don`t have to ask ourselves!! Thats a fallicy and your opinion!! Nothing moreWho is responsible for putting the Cuban people in that position of wanting to vacate the island??? -- surely you can`t be blaming us for the problems and choices that the Cuban leadership has made?

An island that doesn't have the full spectrum and abundance of natural resources to solely take care of it's own population just like Japan. An island geographically right next door to a super that has imposed trade sanctions on it since 1960. Sanctions that have since been tightened so no other nations can trade with Cuba.

Forget reparations for african-americans. The cuban people deserve reparations for our actions taken against them.]--- one opinion that is NOT agreed on by the majority of Cubans living in the United States!!

JEDIYoda, it's not that hard to properly quote and respond, without the text all mixed together.

Your misspelling of the word fallacy reflects your poor understanding of the term, since his saying we should ask who has caused the poverty of the Cuban people is hardly a 'fallacy'.

You can disagree with him, and say it's not an imporetant topic, or that the Cuban people aren't experiencing any poverty, or that the blame is Castro's, or whatever, but none of those are showing that his statement was a fallacy. So many simple arguments from the right are just throwing our meaningless words without any rational meaning - the word 'fallacy' is bad, so it's thrown at his post, but ask for what the actual fallacy is, and... silence (or worse, a nonsensical attempt to answer, but just digging the hole deeper).

It's a very valid topic to ask the effects of our sanctions on the Cubans, whether they're doing more harm than good. We in the US are not at risk from a country sanctioning us (other than perhaps China nowadays, but that's highly unlikely and we could far more easily recover than the Cubans). It's too easy for us to thoughtlessly use such measures and not pay any attention to the effects, which can be devastating, for some thoughtless but of domestic politics here. It's too easy for us to be a bully, or worse.

I'm open to the idea of economic sanctions as policy, but there are some issues with them; one, our being careful in their use (it seems we're not), and two, out using them for higher purposes of actually battling tyranny, and not merely as a 'tool of imperialism' in the 'do as we say or else' agenda would have us do. I do object to our choosing to abuse our power to cause the suffering of innocent people for reasons that are careless or worse. Even if the sanctions are defended as an attempt, you have to ask, did they fail? If so, end them.
 

spittledip

Diamond Member
Apr 23, 2005
4,480
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The US has been holding the Caribbean countries hostage for many years. Why do people think Chavez is so anti US? Do people really think that he just doesn't like the US b/c we are so rich and he is just a trouble maker for no reason? Same thing with Castro. It would be in Castro's and Chavez's better interest to do what the US says, but they know that they will lose their freedom if they do. We are bullies.

We have invaded and funded coups in many Latin American and Caribbean countries, including Panama, Grenada, Haiti, dominican Republic, Venezuela, Cuba, Nicaragua, Guatemala, etc. All for our own interests. Sanctions are just one of the forms of bullying that the States has engaged in against these countries.
 

Fox5

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
5,957
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Originally posted by: compuwiz1
If we loosened up the reins on Cuba, we'd have a problem that would make illegal immigration from Mexico look like a pimple on an elephant's ass. :shocked:

Mexicans would start immigrating to Cuba and we'd lose all our workers?

Honestly, regardless of anything else, the Cuban embargo is just silly at this point.

Anyhow, anyone ever think that the real reason for the Cuban embargo is simply because they screwed us over? Kicking out American business interests that had built up the country, and siding with the enemy after we had given Cuba so much support? This isn't politics, this is a vendetta.
 

compuwiz1

Admin Emeritus Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
27,111
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Originally posted by: Fox5
Originally posted by: compuwiz1
If we loosened up the reins on Cuba, we'd have a problem that would make illegal immigration from Mexico look like a pimple on an elephant's ass. :shocked:

Mexicans would start immigrating to Cuba and we'd lose all our workers?

Honestly, regardless of anything else, the Cuban embargo is just silly at this point.

Anyhow, anyone ever think that the real reason for the Cuban embargo is simply because they screwed us over? Kicking out American business interests that had built up the country, and siding with the enemy after we had given Cuba so much support? This isn't politics, this is a vendetta.

Why aren't their diplomats handing out free women and blowjobs?

 

reeserock

Member
Jan 7, 2008
191
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Cuba in the 20th century was Vegas before Vegas was big. Run by greed and U.S. Gangsters. The Mafia and Batista were getting rich off tourism gambling and prostitution while the people of Cuba were getting nothing. That's why Castro was so popular and why he hated the U.S. so much.

 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
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Originally posted by: philipuso
Anybody need any more evidence that the USA is an empire???

Subsection to whole question and answer below:
The real crime of Cuba was the successes, in terms of things like health care and feeding people, and the general threat of a "demonstra­tion effect" that follows from that-that is, the threat that people in other countries might try to do the same things. That's what they call a rotten apple that might spoil the barrel, or a virus that might infect the region­--and then our whole imperial system begins to fall apart.

This is the answer.

If communism is so terrible, you can't take the chance that your next-door neighbor will embrace it and make it work, so you try to make sure it doesn't.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Originally posted by: philipuso
Anybody need any more evidence that the USA is an empire???

Subsection to whole question and answer below:
The real crime of Cuba was the successes, in terms of things like health care and feeding people, and the general threat of a "demonstra­tion effect" that follows from that-that is, the threat that people in other countries might try to do the same things. That's what they call a rotten apple that might spoil the barrel, or a virus that might infect the region­--and then our whole imperial system begins to fall apart.

This is the answer.

If communism is so terrible, you can't take the chance that your next-door neighbor will embrace it and make it work, so you try to make sure it doesn't.

How can that still be the answer? Sure, back in the old days we were terrified of communism sweeping over the world, one country at a time (or something). But I think it's pretty obvious at this point that it's not going to happen. The two big communist countries are no longer communist in one case and communist in name only in another case. I don't think anybody is going to care what Cuba is doing.
 

Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
12,505
3
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Originally posted by: philipuso
Thanks for the constructive criticism Noobtastic.


Shssss,

Didn't you know you are not suppose to say or write anything critical of US domestic or foreign policies?
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
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In regards to the OP "Anybody need any more evidence that the USA is an empire???"

My answer is no, and Im fine with the USA being an empire.

*shrug*

AFA Cuba goes...that shithole of a country makes some of the third world countries Ive been to look like paradise. Yeah it sucks for the people, but theres nothing we can about it until the stranglehold of a government decides it wants change for its people. You think lifting embargos will help? Is anyone that naive? You honestly think anything we send in the way of aid will actually get to the people? Fools all of you.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
50,036
40,958
136
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Originally posted by: philipuso
Anybody need any more evidence that the USA is an empire???

Subsection to whole question and answer below:
The real crime of Cuba was the successes, in terms of things like health care and feeding people, and the general threat of a "demonstra­tion effect" that follows from that-that is, the threat that people in other countries might try to do the same things. That's what they call a rotten apple that might spoil the barrel, or a virus that might infect the region­--and then our whole imperial system begins to fall apart.

This is the answer.

If communism is so terrible, you can't take the chance that your next-door neighbor will embrace it and make it work, so you try to make sure it doesn't.

How can that still be the answer? Sure, back in the old days we were terrified of communism sweeping over the world, one country at a time (or something). But I think it's pretty obvious at this point that it's not going to happen. The two big communist countries are no longer communist in one case and communist in name only in another case. I don't think anybody is going to care what Cuba is doing.

For a second there I thought my wall calender said it was 1963...

Communism is a failure and is, for all intents and purposes, a dead form of government. Once Fidel kicks it I think his brother will start to open up the island. He will have little choice since he doesn't wield a fraction of the charisma that Fidel does and that is about the only thing holding the government in power.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
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Noam Chomsy is a douche.

And nice source btw.

Ad Hominem FTW.

Nobody here can actually say why the US is still putting Cuba under an embargo. The place is very poor. The person they're trying to hurt continues to live at the top and the embargo continues to hurt only the poor. They have not revolted, this has been going on for years. Why does it continue?

If we loosened up the reins on Cuba, we'd have a problem that would make illegal immigration from Mexico look like a pimple on an elephant's ass.

Coast guard could fix that, it's a water border so easier to control.

Yeah it sucks for the people, but theres nothing we can about it until the stranglehold of a government decides it wants change for its people.

I don't believe that. You cut the embargo, let business flourish with the US, you'll see Castro drive nicer cars and the population drive nicer cars, too.

You think lifting embargos will help? Is anyone that naive? You honestly think anything we send in the way of aid will actually get to the people? Fools all of you.

Crazy talk. Forget aid. Get trade on the go, it will find its way to the people. Everyone, not just Castro et al. will get richer from it.

Flip side: What good is the embargo doing? It's a fvcking travesty is what it is. You have a country where a college grad prizes working at a resort folding towels and the dictator lives richly (as they always do). Cuba is not a security threat, so what benefit is this embargo giving?
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
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Americans bought land in Cuba and it was stolen from them by the communists. If they dont respect the rule of law then they should just stay in their little hell holes down in Cuba. Give our property back and we can discuss relations with Cuba. Why should the USA even talk to communists which murder and steal property?
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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Its somewhat tragic for US policy that we embargo Cuba and do everything to sabotage its economy and then point and say, see communism does not work. Until the late 1980's the Russians were able to prop the Cuban economy up, and now mostly its Canadian tourism.

But up until Castro, Cuba was just another "Banana Republic", controlled by corrupt leaders, and owned by large corporations. The point being, when Castro took over, the wealthy exploiters of the people and some of the professional class fled the country and went to South Florida to await the coming liberation of Cuba. Those that were not wealthy stayed and
life for the people at the lower end of the economic strata became much better in terms of health care and governmental services finally were geared to helping them rather than only the elite.

At first, Castro was seen as a liberator in the USA also. Then he did the unforgivable, he nationalized the assets of US owned sugar companies that had been exploiting Cuba for centuries and the US snit was on and Castro became the devil.

Then after the Bay of Pigs flopped, which forced forced Cuba into the Russian orbit, we in turn got to the Cuban Missile crisis. But we tend to forget that while Kennedy forced the Russian Missiles out, the basic Russian concession was that the US would not invade Cuba.

Of course no one bothered to inform the Cuban American community in South Florida and their dream was to return home to liberate and loot Cuba. And talking to only themselves, they will not hear anything good said of Castro. And in the early years, Castro
tried to export his revolution to South America and the implications of that resonate even today.

The point is, we don't have a rational Cuban foreign policy, we have a South Florida policy
where Cuban Americans are a totally irrational political force. My perhaps optimistic hope lies in time healing all wounds. Certainly as the first generation of Cuban refugees have died
out, we are well into the second generation, and the third generation of these Cuban Americans have almost all lost any desire to Cuba. Then we may have some possibility of getting a more mutually beneficial Cuban policy.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: piasabird
Americans bought land in Cuba and it was stolen from them by the communists. If they dont respect the rule of law then they should just stay in their little hell holes down in Cuba. Give our property back and we can discuss relations with Cuba. Why should the USA even talk to communists which murder and steal property?

Ever consider the idea of 'buying land' in a place like Cuba having corruption with it, where nice real estate might get 'bought' by foreigners that the people there would like to keep for themselves, that maybe the prices are artificially low because of the corruption - how much prime US land is owned by foreigners who used coercion and corruption to get it? You would probably resent it, too, if Yosemite became 'owned by some powerful nation who had gotten it from corrupt dealings with the US dictator they kept in power'.

You talk about murdering and stealing property as if our nation doesn't have its own hands bloody.

Why should we own any Cuban land? We should approach them in a fair manner and work towards ending the artificial, and not only pointless but harmful embargo.
 

Arglebargle

Senior member
Dec 2, 2006
892
1
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Originally posted by: piasabird
Americans bought land in Cuba and it was stolen from them by the communists. If they dont respect the rule of law then they should just stay in their little hell holes down in Cuba. Give our property back and we can discuss relations with Cuba. Why should the USA even talk to communists which murder and steal property?

So you are all for handing over all that land that was stolen from the American Indians as well?

We certainly have no problems dealing with dictators and communist countries now (see China, Vietnam, etc), but somehow Cuba is different? May have to do with the Cuban vote in Florida now?