The real lesson from Boston

[Darwin333]

Terrorism works against us absurdly well. Hell, it worked far better than I would have EVER guessed in the immediate aftermath. I knew that it would be effective after the fact when the .gov puts new laws in place about asinine things such as backpacks but I never would have believed that two jackasses with a homemade bomb that a child could make could quite literally shut down an entire city of millions.

I don't usually read Karls political stuff but his article is spot on imho.

Such as the fact that despite every news anchor and many of the people in Boston pumping their fists and screaming "USA!" along with lauding law enforcement, the fact is that law enforcement could not find its ass with both hands.

It doesn't stop there. Oh no, by effectively occupying a part of the Boston metro area they made an utter mockery of the 4th Amendment. There was no "hot pursuit" and thus no argument available to them allowing searches of private property without consent or a warrant. Not only did they search without a warrant there were multiple reports through the day of seizure of firearms, among other things.

The Constitutional Rights of an entire town, some 30,000 residents, were wantonly and outrageously violated yesterday, yet not one media outlet is focusing there.

Nor are they focusing on the fact that after a full day of undeclared and illegal martial law, complete with "papers please", unconstitutional searches and seizures and military hardware and weapons all over the streets (heh Barack, what was that crap about "weapons of war"?) the cops FAILED to find the jackass.

Instead, within a half-hour of the "can't find our ass with both hands" cops giving up on locking down the town an ordinary citizen finds the bad guy in his boat.

In 30 minutes "We the people" do what thousands of cops spending millions of dollars and violating the rights of every citizen in the town could not and the people did it without all that fancy military hardware too.

So what do the cops do? They shoot at and destroy the boat, of course, in "convincing" the bad guy to come out. Boats you see, must not have extra holes in them or they don't float very well. The cops added many extra holes and a few flash-bangs to the mix too, despite knowing that the vessel had a full tank of fuel on board and might catch on fire or explode. It didn't, fortunately, but that's small consolation to the owner who is almost-certain to see both the city refuse to pay for the damage and his insurance company refuse to cover it too (look in your policy; in general such "acts of war, declare or undeclared" are considered non-covered perils.) Never mind that the guy actually doing the warlike things (the terrorist) didn't cause the damage -- the cops did.

Was there anything the cops did right? Well, yeah, I suppose. Their fancy FLIR gear on the chopper, once pointed out where to look by the homeowner, did detect the heat of the jackass in the boat. Ok. Wow man, technology. I'm supposed to be impressed by this after the specific location of the bad guy was pointed out by the homeowner who saw him in the boat and called the police?

FAIL.

Massive, outrageous, millions of dollars in overtime and worthless hardware FAIL, to go along with a citizenry that cowered in abject fear of a couple of jackasses.

Not only did the terrorists win they learned that we're cowards. We will hide in the closet shaking like a leaf in a hurricane and let them get away for hours or even days instead of going about our business, observing what's different, reporting what doesn't make sense and arming ourselves so we can defend ourselves if, in the gravest extreme, they decide to do so something outrageous.

He goes on about gun laws which is not the intent of my post so I will skip over that part and onto the scariest fact as has been proven to us by the .gov.

We have learned many things over the last week, and none of them are good. We have learned that an entire major city is full of pussies who will hide in the closet rather than sling a rifle or holster a pistol and go about their business, refusing to be cowed by a couple of murderous jackasses. We have learned that the FBI will and does lie to the public and only stops lying when called on it in the media. Just as before 9/11 when the FBI knew damn well that the towelheads were buying simulator time with thousands of dollars in cash and not wanting to know how to land and did nothing with the information to interdict the jackasses who would use that knowledge to murder 3,000 people this time around they knew there was a problem as well and tried to lie about it. This in turn means that if they come talk to you you must assume they're going to lie as well -- and maybe lie about what you tell them. This makes it downright stupid for you to help law enforcement in any way, and that makes us all far less safe if for no other reason than repeatedly-demonstrated and very-official gross negligence. Never mind that the younger brother appears to have a nice online history too which was also ignored and he was actually out partying in the local area after the bombing. We have learned that the older of these two clowns had a domestic violence history which made him eligible to be deported and we did nothing to revoke his green card, thereby effectively giving him license to commit his murders. We naturalized the younger brother despite knowing the above. We have government agents sticking their hands down the crotch of 80 year old dying Grandmas with leukemia in airports, fondling her adult diaper instead of interdicting jackasses like this. We have learned that two young men willing to die for their alleged belief that 27 virgins await them in paradise (who I suspect are both male and literal gorillas, if they exist at all) can shut down all economic activity among a city of millions and strand thousands more, which means that fewer than a hundred said jackasses could literally destroy our economy. If you think I'm divulging some "state secret" by mentioning this you're not very bright either; we televised this fact all day, on every channel, throughout Friday. We learned that thousands of cops, despite being all geared-up and full of cum, can't find one jackass that the people can and do locate in a half hour with no special training and no fancy hardware. We also learned that in a real assault the so-called "good guys" will wear digital camo in an urban environment that sticks out like a sore thumb against everything in the area. FAIL!

And finally we learned that The Constitution is used toilet paper and a fetid relic of our former (and now-shelved in favor of American Idol) imagination, and that the founders who fought just miles from where this took place are looking down on us in shame from heaven -- we no longer merit the nation they left us.

Think about that for a moment. Think about how absurdly easy this device was to make and how absurdly easy it would be to have a bunch of assholes in a bunch of different cities do basically the exact same thing. I guarantee that each one of you can come up with some sort of reasonable way to carry out something like this and we have no desire to do so. Think about the response if 50 of these things go off in different cities across the country, we are talking about shutting down half the country or more over something that ever last person reading this post can easily pull off themselves.

Why are we so willing to give up our rights? Are we really that scared, has the terrorism really terrorized us that much? If so, we have already lost the war seeing how easy it was for us to be terrorized.

source

 

[Doppel]

It seems they did a good job getting him out of the boat, despite destroying it. I don't agree with the author's criticisms there.

I do agree that terrorism "wins" when it shuts down an entire city on a single man hunt of a guy. On the contrary, though, it enforces the message that a terrorist has a very slim chance indeed of escaping the police on US soil if they are willing to shut down a major city and throw thousands of police at the man hunt.

Think about how absurdly easy this device was to make and how absurdly easy it would be to have a bunch of assholes in a bunch of different cities do basically the exact same thing.

VERY! But this has always been the case. It's always been easy to terrorize an entire city. It rarely happens because so few people actually want to, despite knowing that they can. This fact alone more than any other is what protects people from terrorists, not anything the government can do. The fact that people just aren't generally wired to want to do it. The mindset behind blowing things up is exceedingly rare.

 

[irishScott]

Yeah, I did a quick search and I can't find any reference anywhere else to the Boston PD seizing firearms, or anything else for that matter. Even on gun-devoted sites.

I don't think this is as much of an issue as he makes it though. People "gave up their rights" in this instance largely because they felt it was their responsibility to do so. There was a bomber on the loose, and letting the police do their thing was being a responsible citizen. It was also over within hours.

If the Boston PD tried to impose that kind of martial law for any extended period, say if the manhunt went on for days, I think you'd see a very different reaction.

 

[nextJin]

I said that at work pretty much, if they had never called the semi martial law they would have found him a hell of a lot sooner probably.

It's the same thing as releasing their photos, let the public go about their business and you'll get your man pretty quickly.

I can't believe they would go house to house and not actually check places he might go like small shacks or under boats/tarps, etc.

 

[Kadarin]

An opposing point of view:

http://abad1dea.tumblr.com/post/48488539386/thoughts-on-the-boston-lockdown-from-the-edge

 

[Abwx]

The real lesson that didnt escape the authorities is simply
what if thoses two freaks had had access to military
grade material rather than off the shelve ammonium nitrate..?..

 

[Farang]

I understand the criticism of shutting down the whole city. It was overkill. And that can be tied to our fear of Islamic terrorism (if the surveillance cams showed a single crazy white guy doing this the reaction would be different).

But I don't understand the criticisms of how law enforcement performed. This isn't the LAPD shooting at everyone in sight. It's important to remember all of our laws still come down to people. People executing what they believe their responsibilities to be in this system.

So whoever is in control of the officers on the ground can see how this thing plays out--if this person is not stopped, more people will die. Maybe another officer, maybe some hostage the suspect takes, who knows.

If I'm that guy sitting at that desk running things.. I tell my officers to get the guy out of the damned boat. NOW. Do whatever it takes to get him in to custody. Because if I pussyfoot and someone else dies, that is on my hands.

I don't see how this ties in to larger arguments over civil liberties. . . by all accounts any infringements were very temporary. I'm sure most people in Boston threw any abstract constitutional beliefs they had out the window and just wanted the guy captured. Where you can find real criticism is the structural changes to our laws that happened after 9/11, but this seems to me to be a very localized situation that doesn't require a lot of outrage.

 

[blankslate]

Sorry I don't agree. I heard on the radio commands being given out to the Boston Police involved in the firefight with the suspect on the boat. they were told to "check your weapons."

So what do the cops do? They shoot at and destroy the boat, of course, in "convincing" the bad guy to come out. Boats you see, must not have extra holes in them or they don't float very well.

Shows what the writer of the opinion piece knows... the boat wasn't in the water according to video embedded in this news report.
http://news.yahoo.com/final-shootout-then-boston-bombing-suspect-caught-112744657.html



The opinion piece is a fail because he didn't gather the facts before writing a blow-hard fucking idiotic pile of crap.

Remember we don't know who fired first but considering the actions of the suspect(s) it's not a impossible to think that the 2nd suspect tried to kill more police when they surrounded the boat.

 

[Matt1970]

I don't like all the comparisons of hundreds of cops couldn't find this guy but one civilian did. It's not like that one civilian was out looking for him.

 

[Capt Caveman]

I said that at work pretty much, if they had never called the semi martial law they would have found him a hell of a lot sooner probably.

It's the same thing as releasing their photos, let the public go about their business and you'll get your man pretty quickly.

I can't believe they would go house to house and not actually check places he might go like small shacks or under boats/tarps, etc.

I disagree. If people were allowed to move around/drive, no one knew if he was injured or what he was wearing. We do that they had already carjacked one person. What would have stopped the suspect from carjacking another vehicle and leaving the area?

Unfortunately, the suspect was able to elude the cops for a while due to being just outside of the search perimeter. It's still unknown, how long the suspect was inside that boat.

And from friends who have friends in the area, the police did ask for permission to search their homes.

I do disagree on how much of the area that needed to be locked down which is why I broke the order and left my house as did thousands of others. I came cross numerous police vehicles and none of them stopped me.

 

[Darwin333]

It seems they did a good job getting him out of the boat, despite destroying it. I don't agree with the author's criticisms there.

1. Despite locking down a city of millions the cops didn't find the guy, some regular joe did.

2. He was severely wounded and the police are the ones that caused the most risk to property and lives during the situation.

I wouldn't call that a "good" job. The homeowner probably could have gotten the kid out of the boat with a 12 gauge all by himself without a shot fired or a flash bang thrown.

I do agree that terrorism "wins" when it shuts down an entire city on a single man hunt of a guy. On the contrary, though, it enforces the message that a terrorist has a very slim chance indeed of escaping the police on US soil if they are willing to shut down a major city and throw thousands of police at the man hunt.VERY!

What good is that when you are dealing with people that believe its an honor to die in such a situation? Even worse was the fact that it was invective. Getting away has never been a high priority for these types of attackers so I doubt that message was even heard by them. What they did learn was they could obtain their goal, to terrorize, absurdly easy and far better than I would have guessed.

 

[Darwin333]

Yeah, I did a quick search and I can't find any reference anywhere else to the Boston PD seizing firearms, or anything else for that matter. Even on gun-devoted sites.

I don't think this is as much of an issue as he makes it though. People "gave up their rights" in this instance largely because they felt it was their responsibility to do so. There was a bomber on the loose, and letting the police do their thing was being a responsible citizen. It was also over within hours.

If the Boston PD tried to impose that kind of martial law for any extended period, say if the manhunt went on for days, I think you'd see a very different reaction.

Have you not seen the videos of people being forced out of their homes with multiple machine guns pointed at them? There was no "hot pursuit" at the time, if that isn't an absurd violation of the 4th amendment I don't know what is.

Besides, the police FAILED to "do their thing". Within 30 minutes of the shutdown being lifted a regular joe found the guy, not the police. Who knows how much quicker he might have been found had they not lockdowned an entire city for a single asshole.

 

[stormkroe]

Sorry I don't agree. I heard on the radio commands being given out to the Boston Police involved in the firefight with the suspect on the boat. they were told to "check your weapons."



Shows what the writer of the opinion piece knows... the boat wasn't in the water according to video embedded in this news report.
http://news.yahoo.com/final-shootout-then-boston-bombing-suspect-caught-112744657.html



The opinion piece is a fail because he didn't gather the facts before writing a blow-hard fucking idiotic pile of crap.

Remember we don't know who fired first but considering the actions of the suspect(s) it's not a impossible to think that the 2nd suspect tried to kill more police when they surrounded the boat.

Not sure if serious.
You do know that the boat was probably meant to go in the water at some point right? They don't float as well with bullet holes in them.
If joking then carry on.

 

[repoman0]

1. Despite locking down a city of millions the cops didn't find the guy, some regular joe did.

2. He was severely wounded and the police are the ones that caused the most risk to property and lives during the situation.

I wouldn't call that a "good" job. The homeowner probably could have gotten the kid out of the boat with a 12 gauge all by himself without a shot fired or a flash bang thrown.

It was unknown whether the guy had explosives with him - his brother was wearing an IED vest after all when he died.

Plus, I don't know where you're getting the idea that the lockdown was mandatory. Most people chose to stay inside so as not to hinder the police search. I debated it, got bored, and drove into work with no trouble.

 

[Capt Caveman]

1. Despite locking down a city of millions the cops didn't find the guy, some regular joe did.

2. He was severely wounded and the police are the ones that caused the most risk to property and lives during the situation.

I wouldn't call that a "good" job. The homeowner probably could have gotten the kid out of the boat with a 12 gauge all by himself without a shot fired or a flash bang thrown.



What good is that when you are dealing with people that believe its an honor to die in such a situation? Even worse was the fact that it was invective. Getting away has never been a high priority for these types of attackers so I doubt that message was even heard by them. What they did learn was they could obtain their goal, to terrorize, absurdly easy and far better than I would have guessed.

Disagree with just about all of this. The suspect gave himself up, so there goes your honor theory.

 

[Darwin333]

I don't like all the comparisons of hundreds of cops couldn't find this guy but one civilian did. It's not like that one civilian was out looking for him.

Wouldn't that make it even worse? Hundreds of cops ARE looking for him and one civilian accidentally finds him after the lockdown was lifted. That just shows that the police, despite having locked down the entire area and bringing in military hardware failed. A larger point is that the citizens are actually an asset and not a hindrance in a situation like this. Would you rather 100 sets of eyes looking or half a million?

If your going to say shit like "oh but they were in danger", well then the terrorists goal was achieved.

 

[Juror No. 8]

It was more than likely a test to see how the American sheeple in a large city would react to an undeclared martial law and gutting of the Fourth Amendment. Of course, the sheeple reacted just as they've been programmed to react to FBI-orchestrated terrorism. They simply rolled over like the good little lambs they are.

 

[Darwin333]

It was unknown whether the guy had explosives with him - his brother was wearing an IED vest after all when he died.

So instead of him pushing the button on his explosive vest that he may or may not have had lets throw explosives next to him that might set off both the vest and the gasoline stored in the boat. I guess that is a much better idea.....

 

[Darwin333]

Disagree with just about all of this. The suspect gave himself up, so there goes your honor theory.

Its not a theory. 9/11 hijackers and every single suicide bomber prove my point, you have one asshole that gave himself up after being severely wounded who was probably coerced into it by his brother (who didn't give up and rather died).

 

[Darwin333]

Sorry I don't agree. I heard on the radio commands being given out to the Boston Police involved in the firefight with the suspect on the boat. they were told to "check your weapons."



Shows what the writer of the opinion piece knows... the boat wasn't in the water according to video embedded in this news report.
http://news.yahoo.com/final-shootout-then-boston-bombing-suspect-caught-112744657.html



The opinion piece is a fail because he didn't gather the facts before writing a blow-hard fucking idiotic pile of crap.

Remember we don't know who fired first but considering the actions of the suspect(s) it's not a impossible to think that the 2nd suspect tried to kill more police when they surrounded the boat.

Umm, could you please copy and paste the exact phrase in which he says the boat was in the water? If you can't, do you think all of those extra holes will affect it once it is put into water or perhaps you are suggesting that its some sort of lawn ornament?

 

[Capt Caveman]

Its not a theory. 9/11 hijackers and every single suicide bomber prove my point, you have one asshole that gave himself up after being severely wounded who was probably coerced into it by his brother (who didn't give up and rather died).

Which goes against your theory because that did not happen and he gave himself up after shooting at police.

 

[Capt Caveman]

So instead of him pushing the button on his explosive vest that he may or may not have had lets throw explosives next to him that might set off both the vest and the gasoline stored in the boat. I guess that is a much better idea.....

You mean nonincendinary flash bangs?

 

[Darwin333]

I understand the criticism of shutting down the whole city. It was overkill. And that can be tied to our fear of Islamic terrorism (if the surveillance cams showed a single crazy white guy doing this the reaction would be different).

But I don't understand the criticisms of how law enforcement performed. This isn't the LAPD shooting at everyone in sight. It's important to remember all of our laws still come down to people. People executing what they believe their responsibilities to be in this system.

So whoever is in control of the officers on the ground can see how this thing plays out--if this person is not stopped, more people will die. Maybe another officer, maybe some hostage the suspect takes, who knows.

If I'm that guy sitting at that desk running things.. I tell my officers to get the guy out of the damned boat. NOW. Do whatever it takes to get him in to custody. Because if I pussyfoot and someone else dies, that is on my hands.

I don't see how this ties in to larger arguments over civil liberties. . . by all accounts any infringements were very temporary. I'm sure most people in Boston threw any abstract constitutional beliefs they had out the window and just wanted the guy captured. Where you can find real criticism is the structural changes to our laws that happened after 9/11, but this seems to me to be a very localized situation that doesn't require a lot of outrage.

Frankly, I would give the cops a pass on what happened after they found out the guy was in the boat. I still find a lot of shit they did wrong but hey, its heat of the moment type of stuff so alone I would give them a pass. Its all the stuff that led up to that even that is truly fucked up.

Do you really think that the following video is ok when the police are not in hot pursuit of a suspect (as in they had no good info that he was in that house)?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2be_1366536241

 

[Darwin333]

Which goes against your theory because that did not happen and he gave himself up after shooting at police.

Ok, we will just agree to disagree. I think that most Islamic terrorists are ready, willing and even happy to die in what they believe to be a holy war in which they will be rewarded if they die in one of the "battles". You obviously think that is false based off of this single incident.

 

[Darwin333]

You mean nonincendinary flash bangs?

Wow! How does one make a big ass bang and a big ass flash while not igniting anything within said device whatsoever? I even googled it, didn't find anything on the first page but perhaps I am wrong. Were they electric flash bangs of some sort?