The Real Housewives of Wall Street - Another excellent article by Matt Taibbi

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lothar

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2000
6,674
7
76
I would love for the fed to have given me money in 2008 to buy ACF stock(or their bonds and later convert them).
I would have made even much more than I made with my own money.

Privatize the profits, socialize the loses.
 

KlokWyze

Diamond Member
Sep 7, 2006
4,451
9
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www.dogsonacid.com
Zero risk, except for that nearly 15 million million dollars they invested. This is a high-risk/high-reward venture. Such deals happen on a daily basis in the world of finance.

How many in here, if aware of the opportunity and with the investment capital available, would NOT take advantage of the same opportunity to make a potential killing? Anyone claiming they wouldn't is a liar, plain and simple.

It's all just a massive tiered gambling racket. Should I be jealous that I can't play, pissed off, shocked, what? :|
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
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Who says you can't play? afaik, there's no law against you participating.

The Fed says if you can play or not and afaik there's no law against them not letting you play. To make matters worse they then tell Congress that they will not disclose who they allowed to play. Therein lies the issue that you evidently see no problem with.

I do agree with LK that this was virtually risk free investing on both the Feds and the housewives side. I do wonder though, did LK or his employer get in on this risk free money? If not, why?
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
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This is my question. Why wasn't I allowed to invest let's say $10,000, have the fed give me millions to make in, what LK is calling, a low-risk investment and make tens of millions of dollars?

Why were these two housewives allowed to do it? In fact, I would consider myself and certain people on this message board way more financially savvy than either of them. Why weren't you given this opportunity LK? Because you are not worth $100 million?

That seems absurd to me. You have to be worth $100 million to be basically given more money by the fed...??
CONFUSED_SMILEY.GIF

You wouldn't invest 10,000 and get "millions" per se (in the same scope as these ladies), the leverage, at most, was ~20:1. So with 10,000 you'd, at most, get ~2mm. Considering that these bond issuances usually were ~100-200mm+, and you'd have to subscribe to them through a primary dealer, which can only sell to QIB or AIs, there'd be no way you can do it.

That's not even to mention you'd have to have the knowledge to invest in a securitization position. The scale/scope needed to invest and make it worth it is rather large.

Theoretically I could have had the opportunity, had a joined a TALF fund (and many sprung up).

This isn't something that you walk down to your local bank and take out a CD.
 
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LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
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Maybe that would make logical sense except for cascade effect of highly leveraged debt and banks holding securities backed by stated income loans to people with barely a pulse and a SSN. How do we know that bonds FED is holding for Windfall TALF are not the same quality as the ones sold to Deutsche Bank in Abacus deal? Those securities lost 80% of it's value in ONE YEAR. Why should taxpayers be on the hook for deals like that? I am pretty sure no one on ths board would be able to get on deal like the one described in the article.

If you would have bothered to look at my link you'd have known that CDOs weren't allowable TALF assets. Prime mortgages were allowable, but only those using specific collateral and underwriting, as well as revised agency ratings criteria.

There were *specific* guidelines for TALF eligible assets. The issuer had to conform to specific guidelines, including additional reporting, executive compensation, underwriting, and servicing criteria. The assets couldn't be CLO/CDO and had to be sold directly from the underwriter.

The bulk of TALF eligible assets were prime auto loans, prime auto leases, auto wholesale, rental car bonds and small business leases. Throw in a smattering of other asset classes.

As I have stated before, *principal* loss for almost all assets outside of residential mortgages were very low, if almost non-existant. The *only* reason why RMBS experienced the loss it did was because underwriting of the loans did not correlate to the historical data used to set the enhancement for those loans.

As I said above, enhancement is set on a multiple of expected loss. The multiple is based upon probabilities of actual principal loss, a AAA being the least probable. These probabilities were based upon decades worth of loan underwriting and securitization performance.

However, the single biggest problem with historical performance is that it matches historical underwriting. If current underwriting is different, current performance will be different. As current underwriting widened vs historical, performance differences magnified.

This was compounded by the usage of "affordability" products, such as no/low doc loans and option-arms. Both of those products had valid historical uses, the former for self-employed people who didn't get a W-2, the latter from people who had low monthly income but high year-end income/bonus. However, performance expectations were based upon those borrowers, not "affordability" borrowers.

Further issues were that historical data didn't show a systemic deviation from historical lending underwriting, resulting in higher prices that would be offset by a bubble/bust. There was never a systemic nationwide housing decline, most local declines were muted (CA/Boston..etc). Thus, nobody really accounted for a systemic raise and fall, creating further deviations.

If you add this up, according to historical data, a Prime mortgage might default 1-2% of the time. A AAA prime mortgage might require 4x coverage, or 4-8% credit enhancement. However, that was historical, not accounting the above info, so suddenly you get 8% losses and a AAA bond now only has 1x loss coverage, equiv. to a far lower category.

Was this fraud? Not really, it was hubris, on everybody's part.


Now, the key two differentials between housing and almost everything else was that almost everything else had underwriting criteria that mostly stuck to historical criteria, albeit with some deviations. The second factor which is almost equal to the first, was that people simply lost utility in their "investment". An underwater house wasn't seen as a house, it was seen as an investment that had no utility as an investment, so what do you do if you can't flip it? Flop it.

However, with credit cards, one with open credit limit has utility. With a car, it has utility. With a lease, it has utility. With a small business loan or lease, it has utility. With CMBS, it can be rented and produce cashflow to offset a mortgage.

So, in reality, the Fed was pretty safe with its investments. Was it "risk free", not 100%, but it had very low risk, far lower than most AAA loans.
 

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
9,711
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This isn't something that you walk down to your local bank and take out a CD.

Seemed to work for bonds though, right? Getting a loan for millions at 1% interest, buying government bonds that pay 3% back. The numbers may not be exact but the principle remains. But according to you that doesn't matter because the bulk of the profit was made elsewhere.

borrowing money at a fraction of a percent and loaning it back at 3%. Did that happen or not? If so, how do you justify it? How do you justify the Fed refusing to disclose or be accountable for its activities? Etc.

The borrowing money at a fraction and lending it at higher doesn't include how much money is raised outside of the Fed loans, which is far more.

....
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
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Seemed to work for bonds though, right? Getting a loan for millions at 1% interest, buying government bonds that pay 3% back. The numbers may not be exact but the principle remains. But according to you that doesn't matter because the bulk of the profit was made elsewhere.





....

Not sure exactly what you're talking about. Fed discount window funding is usually a very small portion of a bank's entire balance sheet. On the basis for TALF loans, risk adjusted basis is where its at. The mezz/sub investor was taking the first-loss risk and should be compensated more. 3% risk-spread wasn't the usual for TALF loans.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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The Fed says if you can play or not and afaik there's no law against them not letting you play. To make matters worse they then tell Congress that they will not disclose who they allowed to play. Therein lies the issue that you evidently see no problem with.
And your claim above is based on what, exactly? Can you prove that the Fed was showing any sort of favoritism or selective decision making in this process?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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Matt Taibbi, is there anyone better?

On story after story like this.

We have:

Three network news stations, The Wall Street Journal, Bloomberg, Fox Business News, CNBC, MSNBC, CNN, The New York Times, The Washington Post, local news stations, Barron's, The Economist, academic financial and economics publications, local newspapers, and watchdog public interest groups, among others who should cover these issues.

Where the hell are they, why is Taibbi the only one so much of the time?

How is our democracy supposed to work when the public needs one guy for information?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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You wouldn't invest 10,000 and get "millions" per se (in the same scope as these ladies), the leverage, at most, was ~20:1. So with 10,000 you'd, at most, get ~2mm.

10,000 at 20:1 gets you 200,000, not 2mm.

Of course these deals require large sums and high expertise (by someone, not necessarily those making the money).

The point is how it's one more way in which the society is made poorer by the exploitation of the 'haves'. Morally, it's effectively theft, dressed up in nice clothes.

Oh, if we use our money to buy changes in the law, then it's 'ok'.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,330
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And your claim above is based on what, exactly? Can you prove that the Fed was showing any sort of favoritism or selective decision making in this process?

Prove it, of course not.

However, the anecdotal evidence is pretty strong. Like say, oh I dunno, two connected and wealthy housewives with no previous banking experience getting in on the virtually risk free money.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
10,000 at 20:1 gets you 200,000, not 2mm.

Of course these deals require large sums and high expertise (by someone, not necessarily those making the money).

The point is how it's one more way in which the society is made poorer by the exploitation of the 'haves'. Morally, it's effectively theft, dressed up in nice clothes.

Oh, if we use our money to buy changes in the law, then it's 'ok'.

That's what I get for answering quickly.

Provide me with a way the "have nots" would have been able to invest in this.

It is funny that, once challenged, all of the faux righteous indignation dies away. Ignorance to the max.
 

Trianon

Golden Member
Jun 13, 2000
1,789
0
71
www.conkurent.com
That's what I get for answering quickly.

Provide me with a way the "have nots" would have been able to invest in this.

It is funny that, once challenged, all of the faux righteous indignation dies away. Ignorance to the max.

the records disclosed by the Fed show that they lent directly as little as 1M to certain smaller banks and organizations... why not private individuals?
http://sheet.zoho.com/view.do?url=http://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/files/talf.xls
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
the records disclosed by the Fed show that they lent directly as little as 1M to certain smaller banks and organizations... why not private individuals?
http://sheet.zoho.com/view.do?url=http://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/files/talf.xls

Have nots wouldn't have been able to get in on something like that, but have a little's would have. Put $50K up front with another $25K in reserve in exchange for 20:1 leverage on FRB sponsored securities?

Where do I sign up? If the deal fell down, I wouldn't be worried about the money, but rather about keeping the hungry mobs at bay...
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Prove it, of course not.

However, the anecdotal evidence is pretty strong. Like say, oh I dunno, two connected and wealthy housewives with no previous banking experience getting in on the virtually risk free money.
That's not strong evidence. That's nothing more than pure assumption based on a single case. A single instance doesn't make a strong anecdotal case except for possibly the hopelessly paranoid types. Of course, P&N is filled to the brim with those types so...