The real cause of Abu Ghraib identified...

[Art Vandelay]

Pornography

Rep. Christopher Shays, R-CT, the other day said:

MODERATOR: In the wake of Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, and accusations of rendition and torture, what steps should America take to restore its moral image in the world? 3 minutes.

SHAYS: Do you know how difficult it is to be in a debate when your mother is watching, and she gives you a note the night before that says 'don't boast'? Does she qualify as a Jewish mother?

That's a very serious question that was asked, and I care deeply about what people think of the United States. I am a former Peace Corps volunteer, and it matters to me what people around the world think. But what matters more to me first is we do the right thing. Now, there is no excuse for any country to torture anyone. There's no excuse for it. Then the next question is, well, what has the United States done? Well, it has been accused of doing torture, that's what it's been accused of.

Now I?ve seen what happened in Abu Ghraib, and Abu Ghraib was not torture. It was outrageous, outrageous involvement of National Guard troops from Maryland who were involved in really a sex ring and they took pictures of soldiers who were naked and they did other things that were just outrageous. But it wasn't torture.

It's difficult though to have a dialogue with the rest of the world about that when you have news media all around the world saying you're torturing people. The bottom line for me is this. We follow the Geneva Convention, period. That's what we do. And we make sure that what we say for others applies to the United States.

The bolded portion above was widely circulated and received some negative reaction. Shays responded to the criticism:

"This is outrageous for a sitting congressman who was shown pictures (of Abu Ghraib) that were not even available to the public because they were supposed to be more provocative," said Joshua Rubenstein, Northeast regional director for Amnesty International. "The photographs did not only depict humiliating and degrading treatment of prisoners. They showed prisoners who were killed."
...
Shays defended his comments yesterday, saying he doesn't doubt that there has been torture at other prisons, but not at Abu Ghraib.

"I saw probably 600 pictures of really gross, perverted stuff," Shays said. "The bottom line was it was sex. . . . It wasn't primarily about torture."
Shays defined torture as anything that could cause mental or physical pain or sleep depravation.

Asked about pictures showing mistreatment of detainees mentioned by Amnesty International, Shays said he did not see those images and "we also don't know where those could have been from."

So wait, what the heck? How can someone seeking re-election say something so absurd? Wait, what?

 

[ProfJohn]

double post

and this would not be the first time some congressman made some stupid statement.

Remember Major Owns who once declared in a speech on the floor of the House of Representatives that a hundred million blacks perished on the journey from Africa to America, and that so many of the dead were thrown overboard that, to this day, sharks still follow the routes taken by the slave ships.

and that one the floor of the house.

 

[Lemon law]

In my humble opinion the cause of all this were bad soap opera ideas---imagine we have a terrorist in our custodity who can defuse a bomb that can kill thousands or even million.
No time to evacuate---its going off in less than an hour---in such an event is it OK to torture---such was the thesis of Alan Dersowitz---and soon as you say yes---you bought the ends justify the means---which GWB&co. did---then suddenly its jumps the fence from extreme cases to all the routine cases---add a few CIA contractors---find some morally degenerate soldiers, tell the top command to look the other way---and you have Abu-Ghraib.

But this contention its a sex ring is easily shown to be false---because sex allegations are missing from the rendering programs---and mostly from Gitmo.---but torture sure is not.

And trace it to Rumsfeld and above---where the green light for torture came from---and not to the army who had effective policies and proceidures in place to prevent these abuses. But the army was told not to follow these proseidures---by Rumsfeld and above level deciders---and when caught they blame the common soldier.---an the investigation is prevented from going up the chain of command.

Some proof of that is in the recent bill---prevent the CIA people from being prosecuted
for crimes--or sure as shooting---they would rat out those that told them to do it up the chain of command.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
In my humble opinion the cause of all this were bad soap opera ideas---imagine we have a terrorist in our custodity who can defuse a bomb that can kill thousands or even million.
No time to evacuate---its going off in less than an hour---in such an event is it OK to torture---such was the thesis of Alan Dersowitz---and soon as you say yes---you bought the ends justify the means---which GWB&co. did---then suddenly its jumps the fence from extreme cases to all the routine cases---add a few CIA contractors---find some morally degenerate soldiers, tell the top command to look the other way---and you have Abu-Ghraib.

But this contention its a sex ring is easily shown to be false---because sex allegations are missing from the rendering programs---and mostly from Gitmo.---but torture sure is not.

And trace it to Rumsfeld and above---where the green light for torture came from---and not to the army who had effective policies and proceidures in place to prevent these abuses. But the army was told not to follow these proseidures---by Rumsfeld and above level deciders---and when caught they blame the common soldier.---an the investigation is prevented from going up the chain of command.

Some proof of that is in the recent bill---prevent the CIA people from being prosecuted
for crimes--or sure as shooting---they would rat out those that told them to do it up the chain of command.

lemon...its Alan Dershowitz!! Also the ends do justify the means in some rare cases!!!
Its ludicrous to believe that the ends never ever justify the means!!

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
double post

and this would not be the first time some congressman made some stupid statement.

Remember Major Owns who once declared in a speech on the floor of the House of Representatives that a hundred million blacks perished on the journey from Africa to America, and that so many of the dead were thrown overboard that, to this day, sharks still follow the routes taken by the slave ships.

and that one the floor of the house.

At least there is a slight bit of credibility to that calim.

 

[Art Vandelay]

This leads to the obvious question: Who the hell is getting off to that stuff?

 

[imported_Aelius]

Even if it were true it's a smoke screen for the administration.

Oh no we didn't order the torture of detainees. It was those sick sexual perverts with cameras and too much time on their hands to blame. Sir Yes Sir! Yeah.....

 

[5to1baby1in5]

Originally posted by: Art Vandelay
This leads to the obvious question: Who the hell is getting off to that stuff?

Cheny of course. He's sitting with his shotgun right now. Caressing it. Stroking it. Gently. :lips:

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: 5to1baby1in5

Originally posted by: Art Vandelay
This leads to the obvious question: Who the hell is getting off to that stuff?

Cheny of course. He's sitting with his shotgun right now. Caressing it. Stroking it. Gently. :lips:

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Maybe its easy to just blame Cheney---but sadism is still deeply embedded in human nature.

The real question is who is preventing this kind of abuse---but under international law, those in AUTHORITY who KNOW ABOUT---but DON"T TAKE ACTIVE STEPS TO PREVENT SUCH HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES are the ones MORE GUILTY OF THE CRIME---even if said person never takes part in the abuse itself.

Cheney will probably die of natural causes before he is ever dragged up to account for himself---but GWB may see the insides of prison cell before he dies on exactly that question.----and so rumor has it---Rummy is peeing his pants and can't schred papers fast enough.

Sooner or later the real facts will come out---who ordered what. And no statute of limitations---there are still some ww2 nazi's being hunted as I write this.

Even deeper embedded in human nature is the emotion of revenge.