The question of free will

[poop]

Well, do we truly have free will? Or are all decisions based upon variables, with no true randomness? Is there such a thing as randomness? Is chaos simply seen in situations where we are unable to determine all variables?

I mean, if everything in the universe is based on rules, then aren't our minds bound by those rules as well? Don't the chemical and electrical processes that take place in our heads play by the same rules as everything else?

No statements here, just questions. I was curious to see what other people think.

 

[Zedfu]

rules are meant to be broken. if rules don't get broken, there would be no rules.

 

[poop]

What is that supposed to mean?

 

[Killbat]

As far as fate goes, I believe that humans are free to choose their path through life, but I do not throw out the idea that "God" knows everything, past through future. He is not in control, but he knows what we'll do. :Q

 

[Balt]

As I've stated in a previous thread...

Personally, I believe in determinism. I believe all of our actions are determined by physical factors and past events, and people have no 'free will'.

That's just MY belief, I in no way try to force that view on others. I don't discount the possibility of free will, but I find it extremely doubtful.

If you are interested in why I believe that way, read Holbach's "The Illusion of Free Will" and possibly Smart's "Sensations and Brain Processes" as well.

I actually wrote a 5 page paper on this subject for my philosophy class. I haven't gotten the grade back yet

 

[Windogg]

Life is full of paradoxes.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Windogg

 

[somethingwitty]

Yes, we have free will. I didnt have to respond to this thread, but I decided to nef and repeat what I'm sure i've said before anyway

God knows what we'll choose, but we still get to make our own choices

 

[DAM]

i dont think there is such thing as true randomness therefore there is no such thing as free will. so many factors involved so many variables, that at any given time the same path can be taken in three different ways. "a butterfly flaps its wings in new york, a typhoon hits asia."






dam()

 

[Isla]

We are dealt a hand of cards so to speak, but we get to choose how we play them.

We can't do much about our genetic background and the environment in which we are raised, but we do have choices to make in life that are ours alone to make.

Life is a combination of things we cannot control and the choices we make.

At least, that is how I see it.

Freewill Rush

/tips hat to Dennilfloss

 

[poop]

I am not talking about past events, the metaphysical concept of fate, or even predestination (Calvin). I am referring to randomness, really. Is there randomness? If not, then doesn't that discount free will.

I will take that reading into consideration.

Neat fact:
It has been empirically measured that it takes 0.5 seconds for perception to become processed into consciousness(. So you are living 0.5 seconds in the past (consciously). Your subconscious controls speech and other things that require propagation delays of less than 1/2 of a second (ie avoiding that dog in the road).

 

[poop]

So you decided to nef? Are you sure that your mind wasn't in a mode in which you could not avoid coming in here? If you didn't have a choice, then yes, this is a pointless conversation. Too bad we were all doomed to come in here and talk about it .

The whole God knows, but I have a choice is a paradox that I do not wish to get into. It is an argument I have gotten into before, and it just doens't make any sense (as in any paradox)

 

[somethingwitty]

<< The whole God knows, but I have a choice is a paradox that I do not wish to get into >>



sorry, but I just have to )) ask about that-why is it such a paradox? I am genuinely curious-is it really so odd to say that I do what I want, make the choices I want, and that there is an all-knowing being who knows in advance what I want/am going to do?

 

[poop]

Sigh, I cannot resist...

Like any argument, we must make some basic assumptions. I put the only ones I use up front.

Assumptions:
1. God knows everything.
2. Everything includes the results of our choices.
3. A choice requires 2 possible, randomly selectable outcomes.

My hypothesis:
1. Therefore, our choices are not really choices.
2. Why? Because they will be the same no matter what happens.

Explanation/reasoning behind this:
1. Forknowledge of something implies that that something is a knowable fact.
2. If the result of our choice is part of God's forknowledge, then the result of our choice is a fact (that God knows).
3. If the result is a fact, already known, then the result cannot be anything else.
4. If the result cannot be anything else, then there is no way another result could occur.
5. Lack of an alternative result implies that there was no choice to start with.
6. With only one possible outcome (the forknown fact), there is no choice. (see assumption 3)

Please feel free to illuminate any flaws you see in my reasoning. If my base assumptions are too broad, let me know. I am free to criticism, as I don't wish to start an anti-religion/pro-religion flame war here. I just want some sort of discussion, if possible.

 

[Dedpuhl]

From the viewpoint of Christianity, free will is impossible.

 

[poop]

What about a purely sientific veiwpoint? As someone who is not a christian, that is my question.

 

[DAM]

religious view: god knows all and he knows what you will do, but chooses not to know? (kind of a happy medium)

scientific view: there is not such thing as free will either, everything and anything will happen at any time and any give moment, wheater we move or not.







dam(inprobability drive, i think im talking original frontier gibberish)

 

[Shalmanese]

I think theres some rule in quantum physics (not heiseberg's uncertanty principle) which proves that there is free will.
BTW the whole omincient god/free will paradox can be resolved by the argument:
imagine that you have a very good friend, He will be able to predict your actions most of the time as he knows you so well. This does not deny your free will however. Imagine that god(s) (if he does exist) would be an infinatly more close friend as s/he can see into your thoughts. He may be able to tell what you are going to do since he knows you as an individual so well, this also would not deny us free will but would allow god(s) to predict what we would do.

 

[poop]

But if God cannot be wrong in his predictions of what we are going to do, then our entire lives are already his knowledge. If everything we do is his knowledge, then there is no other path we can possibly take, as taking another path would make God wrong (impossible). Therefore, our lives have only one possible path.

A good friend might know me, and be able to predict what I will do, but that friend can be wrong. Therefore there are multiple possible outcomes for my decision. If God knows and cannot be wrong, then there are not multiple possibilities, only one.

Therefore, the possibility of a choice does not exist without multiple possible outcomes.

Saying that God konws, but there are possible multiple outcomes does not make any sense. It is paradoxical.

The only resolution I can see is that God is like Paul Atreides (Dune). He sees all possible outcomes of every possible change that can take place. Therefore, God knows all possiilities for us, but is unable to judge which way we will go.

Besides, it seems unfair that God lets us live, when he knows how we will live our lives. So why doesn't God just send us directly to Heaven or Hell? I mean, it isn't like we had a chance if God knew we were going to make the wrong decisions.

 

[fdiskboy]

For those trying to figure out the religious side of this equation--remember this, we can't really understand God. He is timeless, meaning time has no meaning or effect to him. It does to us. Therefore, our attempts to understand how He operates are fatally flawed to start with.
Can we have free will and He know our choices ahead of time? I think so. Is it something I can explain fully? No, but I also can't explain how God can be three in one (The Trinity).

Just my thoughts.

 

[Javelin]

There is randomness in nature, which is shown by quantum mechanics and the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. However, this is not sufficient evidence for free will. A lot depends on your interpretation of your identity. Why are you &quot;you&quot;? Can you choose not to be &quot;you&quot;. If you can't then can you truly say that you have free will? Lets take a simple example... what's your favorite colour? Lets suppose its blue. Now the question is whether you truly had free will in choosing blue... could you for choose to have another favorite colour? Probably not, you like blue because of various factors but you did not just randomly choose blue in a complete vacuum. If you extend this to more important issues, it really raises some fundamental questions.

 

[jhu]

poop, from the scientific perspective there probably isn't free will. think about it this way: all physical objects are bound by physical laws (eg, objects in motion stay in motion unless acted upon by a force, etc.). humans are physical animate objects and thus are bound by the same laws. so there's no free will. of course, then there's the problem of quantum mechanics. if you add this in, not only is there no free will, all actions are inherently chaotic to a small degree. some would say that because of quantum mechanics there is room for free will. i don't subscribe to this because that would mean that a rock also has free will which doesn't really make much sense.

 

[SirFshAlot]

are we assuming that our conscious thought dictates our actions, or is it merely a slideshow?

in my opinion, our subconscious rules, and works without the need for our consciousness, therefore, making millions of &quot;decisions&quot; on it's own based on programming that was set in motion at birth.

 

[sandorski]

Of course, this whole existance means nothing if the Matrix is real!

 

[xaigi]

poop: Your argument assumes that God &quot;lives&quot; in sequential, linear time.

 

[poop]

No, my assumption has nothing to do with your concept of time. I do not believe in time. Time is simply an abstract concept invented by humans.