The problem with communism...

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
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...is that eventually you run out of other peoples' money.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap...43R3JQ?docId=528bfa0f2dec4bf8a9c7132848ebfc0d

French strike to save 'birthright' of privileges

(AP) – 22 hours ago

MARSEILLE, France (AP) — Battling for benefits is a tradition in the Gilly family, passed from generation to generation — as it is for families across the country. And that goes some way toward explaining why the protests against plans to raise France's retirement age have shown such determination and ferocity.

For Gilly and many other Frenchmen and women, social benefits such as long vacations, state-subsidized health care and early retirement are more than just luxuries: They're seen as a birthright — an essential part of the identity of today's France.

The protest against a government plan to raise the retirement age to 62 has special meaning for five members of the Eric Gilly clan who are demonstrating in the streets of Marseille.

"We want to stop working at 60 because it's something our parents, our grandparents and even our great-grandparents fought for," says Gilly, 50, a union representative at Saint-Pierre Cemetery, the largest in this bustling Mediterranean port city.

"And over the years ... you can see that we're losing everything they fought for. And that's unacceptable."

In Marseille, strikes to protest President Nicolas Sarkozy's planned retirement reform have shut down docks, left tons of garbage putrefying on sidewalks and drawn tens of thousands into the streets for each of six protest marches since early September.

Gilly, with huge drums strapped over his shoulders, led the parade for the Workers' Force union Monday. His sister, two daughters and a nephew weren't far behind.

"Unionism, it's in the skin," Gilly said in an interview with Associated Press Television News. "It's more than a passion. When something is wrong or things aren't right, they have to be changed."

The nation usually watches with care over its citizens, who for decades have used street power to help shape French policy, sometimes pulling the rug from under politicians' feet.

Retirement benefits are coveted, by some, perhaps even more than a higher salary, making the issue particularly sensitive. Sarkozy's plan to raise the retirement age hits a nerve deep in the French psyche.

"France is showing some of its old cultural reflexes," said Etienne Schweisguth of the Center for European Studies at the Foundation for Political Science. "When there is something we aren't pleased with we must protest."

Trying to undo what the state wants dates back to an anarchist tradition of the 19th century, when unions first led a struggle against capitalism and a refusal to align with political parties, said Schweisguth. One wing of the hard-core CGT union, which is leading many of today's protests, still looks to that tradition.

Despite the anti-government protests, it is the French state that has for centuries been charged with protecting individuals and their rights.

"The state is the guarantor of the moral good," said Schweisguth, who studies changes in attitudes and values in society.

It was in 1982, under Socialist President Francois Mitterrand, that the minimum age to stop working was lowered from 65 to 60. The measure, emblematic of the 14-year Mitterrand presidency, was adopted by a special ordinance that bypassed parliament.

Sixty has since become a golden number — and the battle cry for entire families fearful of losing benefits bestowed on grandparents, parents or colleagues at work. Including the Gillys.

"This is a family affair because unionism is our big family," said Stephanie, 22, who is among Marseille's striking garbage collectors. "Our elders fought for retirement at 60."

"We have all the generations represented," she said. "There's me, my little sister, Dad. There we go. And then there will be our children, too. We will teach them."

Schweisguth said, that despite the ruckus, strikers represent a minority of the population and that, while polls show backing for such actions, they do not measure the fervor of the backing, which he called "flaccid."

Sarkozy, a conservative, has made pushing the legal retirement age back up a priority.

"The French are moaners, sometimes grouches. But at the same time they're lucid, intelligent and responsible," the daily Le Figaro quoted him as saying in May, when he criticized Mitterrand's 1982 decision. "They will be able to acknowledge that there is no alternative to our reforms."

But Sarkozy is increasingly unpopular, and he may be off the mark.

Gilly, a burly man dressed in red from his baseball cap to his Workers' force union bib, pounds the huge drum hanging from his neck at a street protest against the retirement reform, keeping time to the chorus of voices singing "The International," the Communist anthem.

"You're not really going to push up the age of people who retire with this reform," says his nephew, Mathias Gilly, a retailer. "In reality, it's going to mean a smaller pension for people when they do retire."

Gilly packs up his drum for another day, vowing that he and his family will keep up protests — "for as long as it takes."

Copyright © 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.

These people have got some nerve. It's their birthright that they get free health-care.

Arrogant bunch of folks. I'm proud to be an American, where at least some semblance of sanity still resides.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,746
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...is that eventually you run out of other peoples' money.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap...43R3JQ?docId=528bfa0f2dec4bf8a9c7132848ebfc0d



People got some nerve. It's their birthright that they get free health-care.

Arrogant bunch of folks. Proud to be an American.

Of course you are proud to be an American. Self hate is all about eating shit and holding your head up high so your stinking breath can be shown off to everybody. There is no greater pride possible for folk who feel worthless than how hard they can fuck themselves in the ass. Real men, don't forget are really really tough. That's why soldiers who have proved that to themselves come home and kill themselves. Everything they were taught that would bring them honor finally and at last is seen through to be hollow, and because nobody ever told them how to really find self respect, they are toast when the finally see it.

Your life is a lie. You are upside down to reality. Pride is only ego denial.

Edit: By the way, you have no need for pride because you always were and always will be perfect.
 
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PeshakJang

Platinum Member
Mar 17, 2010
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Of course you are proud to be an American. Self hate is all about eating shit and holding your head up high so your stinking breath can be shown off to everybody. There is no greater pride possible for folk who feel worthless than how hard they can fuck themselves in the ass. Real men, don't forget are really really tough. That's why soldiers who have proved that to themselves come home and kill themselves. Everything they were taught that would bring them honor finally and at last is seen through to be hollow, and because nobody ever told them how to really find self respect, they are toast when the finally see it.

Your life is a lie. You are upside down to reality. Pride is only ego denial.

Shhh.... it's OK little child. Poor little moonbeam.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
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Actually many countries that are not communist have universal health care.

True. I probably posted this in too much zeal, but it's infuriating that union members feel entitled to benefits to this extent.
 

Murloc

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2008
5,382
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they should just understand that their elders didn't have the same life expectancy.
Nowadays 65 years should be the minimum, and it could be extended to 67 in the future.
Anyway french are a bit spoiled and they don't want to give it up, but it's understandable since now it's a given right.
They will get used to it and calm down. They retain the other better work rights after all.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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True. I probably posted this in too much zeal, but it's infuriating that union members feel entitled to benefits to this extent.

It could help if you were able to identify why you have this infuriated feeling. You would find that your demands for love as a child were infuriating to your parents because your demands would trigger their feelings that they weren't good enough parents, and they couldn't tolerate that because their parents infuriated them.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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Shhh.... it's OK little child. Poor little moonbeam.

I love the poor. I love the little. And I love children. I am so sorry for you that such things are insults to you because you're not going to like yourself very much.

But I understand. You stomp on the grave of the dead child within you out of rage. I know you better than you can ever possibly imagine. May you find Grace because you are not your own friend.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
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It could help if you were able to identify why you have this infuriated feeling. You would find that your demands for love as a child were infuriating to your parents because your demands would trigger their feelings that they weren't good enough parents, and they couldn't tolerate that because their parents infuriated them.

It might also help for you to identify why you have an obsession with self-hatred. You might find that your demands for love as a child were frustrated by an abusive father, who's abusive tendencies molded in you a warped view of paternalism as a fusion of hatred and love, causing you to be confused and scared of such conflicting emotions.

In other words, stop acting like you have the slightest idea what you're talking about, stop these pathetic pseudo-psychoanalyses of every ATPN member with who's opinions you happen to disagree, and take a damned psychology course.
 
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PeshakJang

Platinum Member
Mar 17, 2010
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I love the poor. I love the little. And I love children. I am so sorry for you that such things are insults to you because you're not going to like yourself very much.

But I understand. You stomp on the grave of the dead child within you out of rage. I know you better than you can ever possibly imagine. May you find Grace because you are not your own friend.

Shhh... it'll be ok little one. Close your eyes... go to sleep... if you're good, tomorrow will be there for you. Poor little child.
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
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True. I probably posted this in too much zeal, but it's infuriating that union members feel entitled to benefits to this extent.

I know what you mean.

I wonder if Communism could work.. we've, of course, never seen the means of production controlled by the workers; every communist revolution is always, perpetually, stuck in the 'transition phase'.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
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I know what you mean.

I wonder if Communism could work.. we've, of course, never seen the means of production controlled by the workers; every communist revolution is always, perpetually, stuck in the 'transition phase'.

My theory: Communism works just fine on very small scales, like families. And capitalism fails miserably in such a case. Siblings don't (or shouldn't) compete for meals from mom and dad.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
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I know what you mean.

I wonder if Communism could work.. we've, of course, never seen the means of production controlled by the workers; every communist revolution is always, perpetually, stuck in the 'transition phase'.

Communism was way ahead of it's time and thus usurped by some very bad people. For a command economy to function in the real world it must be amazingly efficient. They key is as much automation and precise JIT logistics of goods and services controlled by Democracy and consumer needs through instant communications of the modern world.

The whole concept of the transition being done into Communism with such low technology of the 20th century is foolish. The top down 20th century model just begs for corruption and lack of accountability.

The point a lot of folks who do not understand Socialism/Communism is that while the country is in the Socialist transition phase it is still a Capitalist hybrid state. The Communist utopian end view would have to be a pretty much automated hands-off society.

We are nowhere near that point, technologically or socially as we are still literally coming out of our cradle as far as evolving. We are greedy, self absorbed, and still pretty much animals.

Barring some wild thing like extraterrestrial technology to boost us we have a long way to go as a species until we can trust ourselves enough for the transition into the final form of communism.

Fun to think about, but not going to happen in our lifetimes. (if ever -we have shown to be very self-destructive still)

I do not see our Capitalist or Socialist hybrid system changing anytime soon, but it still does not mean we cannot individually try to rise above our recent evolving from the jungles. All change starts on a personal level. And human societies usually only need a small percentage to change the "tide".

Anyhow, until I get a battlecruiser and will live forever I am not sweating such sci fi concepts in 2010.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
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My theory: Communism works just fine on very small scales, like families. And capitalism fails miserably in such a case. Siblings don't (or shouldn't) compete for meals from mom and dad.
Quite true. The farther Communism is extended, the more it tends to resemble slavery, but in the family it works quite well because everyone cares more about the others than about him- or herself.

Socialism is a bit difference though. You have to have at least some socialism, give up some freedom, to have a modern society. The only question is how far down the road of socialism we should go, as socialism at some point IS Communism.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
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It could help if you were able to identify why you have this infuriated feeling. You would find that your demands for love as a child were infuriating to your parents because your demands would trigger their feelings that they weren't good enough parents, and they couldn't tolerate that because their parents infuriated them.

Liberal.jpg


“Based on strikingly irrational beliefs and emotions, modern liberals relentlessly undermine the most important principles on which our freedoms were founded,” says Dr. Lyle Rossiter, author of the new book, “The Liberal Mind: The Psychological Causes of Political Madness.” “Like spoiled, angry children, they rebel against the normal responsibilities of adulthood and demand that a parental government meet their needs from cradle to grave.”
“Modern liberalism's irrationality can only be understood as the product of psychopathology. So extravagant are the patterns of thinking, emoting, behaving and relating that characterize the liberal mind that its relentless protests and demands become understandable only as disorders of the psyche."

"The Liberal Mind" reveals the madness of the modern liberal for what it is: a massive transference neurosis acted out in the world's political arenas, with devastating effects on the institutions of liberty.”

Dr. Rossiter says the liberal agenda preys on weakness and feelings of inferiority in the population by:
Creating and reinforcing perceptions of victimization;​
Satisfying infantile claims to entitlement, indulgence and compensation;​
Augmenting primitive feelings of envy;​
Rejecting the sovereignty of the individual, subordinating him to the will of the government.​
Looks like a good book.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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It might also help for you to identify why you have an obsession with self-hatred. You might find that your demands for love as a child were frustrated by an abusive father, who's abusive tendencies molded in you a warped view of paternalism as a fusion of hatred and love, causing you to be confused and scared of such conflicting emotions.

In other words, stop acting like you have the slightest idea what you're talking about, stop these pathetic pseudo-psychoanalyses of every ATPN member with who's opinions you happen to disagree, and take a damned psychology course.

The fact that I know what I am talking about is a great threat to your ego. You do not know, you don't want to know and you don't know you don't want to know. You're in a bit of a pickle. To be blind and not to want know it isn't a really good think. But on top of that you are full of pretension and are certain of so many things. It's also not good to try to spread your disease. Your castles are built of sand and you shouldn't invite people in. It's no fun to have sand in your ass.
 

ConstipatedVigilante

Diamond Member
Feb 22, 2006
7,670
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Communism is really an impossibility, at least it is if you want to still have any semblance of freedom. Human nature dictates that when people are all treated exactly the same for different work, they will act differently. Some will simply stop working and let the more principled get the work done for them, thus becoming leeches on the system. Others will become fed up with managing the more complex parts of the system for the same reward, and will skew it in their favor.

Simply put, you can't get people to do work without an incentive. If you say, "if your work gets done by someone, you get fed and clothed," then some people will just get others to do it for them. Or they'll cheat the system, make it look like they did the work, and get paid despite the smaller amount of overall work that has been completed.

Communism cannot work without strict monitoring of workers, accountability for those on top, and a completely brainwashed populace that is made to be happy with what they have (because, honestly, few people are).



Edit: And Moonbeam, what the fuck are you talking about?! You're spouting psycho-babble gibberish without knowing anyone here well enough. To add to that, you're spouting this meaningless drivel on a forum for political discussion. Nobody will ever believe you when you change your posting to metaphorical pseudo-profound gibberish whenever you cannot refute a point. This is an environment for debate; you are not going to convert anyone to your point of view by calling them self-loathing children. Speaking of which, what is your obsession with self-loathing? It's all you ever fucking talk about, outside of spouting communist ideals while spitting at the word "communism."
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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What is it about the subject of self hate that causes folk to flip out, I wonder. It sort of looks almost as though it were true. Interesting! Just imagine if every day you got to feel like the worst person in the world. Are you ready for that?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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You didn't reach out and take a neutral statement that had nothing to do with you and pull it in and stab yourself in the heart with it, did you. Jesus, that is something that people who hate themselves do, assume that everything and everybody is after them. I just told you what kind of people that book would appeal to. I had no idea you would take it personally. Geez, you know very well I say there's nothing wrong with anybody except if they feel their is. But you can play the victim card if you want even though there are no victims. I guess it's how the right feels about itself. And of course, they would project that on to the left, even you although I have make this same point a million times, no victims, none at all.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
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You didn't reach out and take a neutral statement that had nothing to do with you and pull it in and stab yourself in the heart with it, did you. Jesus, that is something that people who hate themselves do, assume that everything and everybody is after them. I just told you what kind of people that book would appeal to. I had no idea you would take it personally. Geez, you know very well I say there's nothing wrong with anybody except if they feel their is. But you can play the victim card if you want even though there are no victims. I guess it's how the right feels about itself. And of course, they would project that on to the left, even you although I have make this same point a million times, no victims, none at all.

funny-dog-pictures-foghorn-coming.jpg
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,764
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I just told you what kind of people that book would appeal to. I had no idea you would take it personally.
It looks like he was just looking for some sort of support for your 'neutral statement'; maybe he agrees and wants support based on some empiricism.