The Prewar Intelligence Imbroglio - A Tale of Two Leaders

[BOBDN]

Looks like the Brits are much less forgiving of lying leaders than Americans.

From World Press Review.

The Prewar Intelligence Imbroglio - A Tale of Two Leaders

"That Blair, who was elected with one of the largest parliamentary majorities in British history, is in such deep trouble while Bush, who was selected by judges with a minority of the popular vote, has emerged little more than scathed, is sadly not a measure of the higher standards of honesty and probity to which we hold our politicians in Britain. It is rather a testament to Blair?s political and personal follies and Bush?s relative acuity.

This is not to say that Bush does not have problems and that those problems could not grow into something substantial. Most recent polls show that his approval ratings have dropped, as has support for Republicans on handling terrorism, on the postwar situation in Iraq, and on foreign policy. A recent CBS poll showed that over half believed the Bush administration overestimated Iraqi weapons, while the number who think America is not in control of the situation in Iraq has doubled since April to 41 percent."

 

[Bowfinger]

Unfortunately, I think the British are better-informed than the average American. They aren't as lazy intellectually. They don't insist their news be packaged as entertainment. It also helps that the BBC is so much more balanced than America's conservative media.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

... is sadly not a measure of the higher standards of honesty and probity to which we hold our politicians in Britain.

He's wrong, that's exactly what it is.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Unfortunately, I think the British are better-informed than the average American. They aren't as lazy intellectually. They don't insist their news be packaged as entertainment. It also helps that the BBC is so much more balanced than America's conservative media.

Your first part was on point. But your second part is confusing if you are assuming that the BBC is a conservative outfit, which it isn't. It would be better if you compared the BBC to CNN, or better yet NPR. BBC and Fox News are in different boats, media-wise.

And BTW, the BBC is not balanced at all. You seem to forget the recent fight between the BBC and the government where a government scientist committed suicide. The BBC later said that its reporting was flawed and it was wrong not to go to the intelligence agencies to hear their side of the story. If anything, that is the first thing they teach you in journalism school, to get both sides of the story.

 

[BOBDN]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Unfortunately, I think the British are better-informed than the average American. They aren't as lazy intellectually. They don't insist their news be packaged as entertainment. It also helps that the BBC is so much more balanced than America's conservative media.

Your first part was on point. But your second part is confusing if you are assuming that the BBC is a conservative outfit, which it isn't. It would be better if you compared the BBC to CNN, or better yet NPR. BBC and Fox News are in different boats, media-wise.

And BTW, the BBC is not balanced at all. You seem to forget the recent fight between the BBC and the government where a government scientist committed suicide. The BBC later said that its reporting was flawed and it was wrong not to go to the intelligence agencies to hear their side of the story. If anything, that is the first thing they teach you in journalism school, to get both sides of the story.

The BBC is balanced enough to stand up to the UK government. Unlike our own right wing press.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: BOBDN

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Unfortunately, I think the British are better-informed than the average American. They aren't as lazy intellectually. They don't insist their news be packaged as entertainment. It also helps that the BBC is so much more balanced than America's conservative media.

Your first part was on point. But your second part is confusing if you are assuming that the BBC is a conservative outfit, which it isn't. It would be better if you compared the BBC to CNN, or better yet NPR. BBC and Fox News are in different boats, media-wise.

And BTW, the BBC is not balanced at all. You seem to forget the recent fight between the BBC and the government where a government scientist committed suicide. The BBC later said that its reporting was flawed and it was wrong not to go to the intelligence agencies to hear their side of the story. If anything, that is the first thing they teach you in journalism school, to get both sides of the story.

The BBC is balanced enough to stand up to the UK government. Unlike our own right wing press.

Fox is our only press? Cripes. Just because Fox is kicking all the liberal news sources asses - they are "our press" now? You seem to forget that the other evening entertainme...uh I mean news sources aren't without bias too😉 But I guess that only the press you agree with is without bias though - huh? And they are the only ones who will "stand up" to the gov't. Incase you forgot - the press is there to report - not stand up to or bring down the gov't.

Sit BOBDN Sit, good dog. ruff!

CkG

 

[BOBDN]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: BOBDN

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Unfortunately, I think the British are better-informed than the average American. They aren't as lazy intellectually. They don't insist their news be packaged as entertainment. It also helps that the BBC is so much more balanced than America's conservative media.

Your first part was on point. But your second part is confusing if you are assuming that the BBC is a conservative outfit, which it isn't. It would be better if you compared the BBC to CNN, or better yet NPR. BBC and Fox News are in different boats, media-wise.

And BTW, the BBC is not balanced at all. You seem to forget the recent fight between the BBC and the government where a government scientist committed suicide. The BBC later said that its reporting was flawed and it was wrong not to go to the intelligence agencies to hear their side of the story. If anything, that is the first thing they teach you in journalism school, to get both sides of the story.

The BBC is balanced enough to stand up to the UK government. Unlike our own right wing press.

Fox is our only press? Cripes. Just because Fox is kicking all the liberal news sources asses - they are "our press" now? You seem to forget that the other evening entertainme...uh I mean news sources aren't without bias too😉 But I guess that only the press you agree with is without bias though - huh? And they are the only ones who will "stand up" to the gov't. Incase you forgot - the press is there to report - not stand up to or bring down the gov't.

Sit BOBDN Sit, good dog. ruff!

CkG

I didn't mention any specific news outlet. Just our own right wing press. Why would you bring up Fox?

And the press does need to stand up to government rather than bend over for the White House and be complicit in scripted newsconferences and repeating White House talking points. Their job isn't just to report but to ask the questions that need to be asked to get the answers we need to hear.

I know this will be difficult for you to understand but if we allow the government to act unfettered we wind up with situations like Iraq. No one bothered to ask the hard questions and even if they did the Bush administration wouldn't have answered the questions. That isn't how a fair and open democracy works. I wonder if Iraq will recognize that when they are treated to the Bush administration's idea of freedom.

I haven't seen one Bush news conference in the past 3 years (there have been fewer than a dozen since Bush took office) where Bush had to field questions from the news corps.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: BOBDN

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: BOBDN

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Unfortunately, I think the British are better-informed than the average American. They aren't as lazy intellectually. They don't insist their news be packaged as entertainment. It also helps that the BBC is so much more balanced than America's conservative media.

Your first part was on point. But your second part is confusing if you are assuming that the BBC is a conservative outfit, which it isn't. It would be better if you compared the BBC to CNN, or better yet NPR. BBC and Fox News are in different boats, media-wise.

And BTW, the BBC is not balanced at all. You seem to forget the recent fight between the BBC and the government where a government scientist committed suicide. The BBC later said that its reporting was flawed and it was wrong not to go to the intelligence agencies to hear their side of the story. If anything, that is the first thing they teach you in journalism school, to get both sides of the story.

The BBC is balanced enough to stand up to the UK government. Unlike our own right wing press.

Fox is our only press? Cripes. Just because Fox is kicking all the liberal news sources asses - they are "our press" now? You seem to forget that the other evening entertainme...uh I mean news sources aren't without bias too😉 But I guess that only the press you agree with is without bias though - huh? And they are the only ones who will "stand up" to the gov't. Incase you forgot - the press is there to report - not stand up to or bring down the gov't.

Sit BOBDN Sit, good dog. ruff!

CkG

I didn't mention any specific news outlet. Just our own right wing press. Why would you bring up Fox?

And the press does need to stand up to government rather than bend over for the White House and be complicit in scripted newsconferences and repeating White House talking points. Their job isn't just to report but to ask the questions that need to be asked to get the answers we need to hear.

I know this will be difficult for you to understand but if we allow the government to act unfettered we wind up with situations like Iraq. No one bothered to ask the hard questions and even if they did the Bush administration wouldn't have answered the questions. That isn't how a fair and open democracy works. I wonder if Iraq will recognize that when they are treated to the Bush administration's idea of freedom.

I haven't seen one Bush news conference in the past 3 years (there have been fewer than a dozen since Bush took office) where Bush had to field questions from the news corps.

Umm, maybe because FOX is the only one?😛 (television wise - like the BBC) Please name the other "right wing press" outlets? I'm pretty sure I could come up with quite a list of liberal ones.

No - the press is there to report - ask question - yes. But your attitude that they are somehow "defending" people by "standing up to" the gov't is more than a tad absurd if you cling to their claim of not having an agenda😉.

I know this will be hard for YOU to understand, but the Iraq war was VERY neccessary, and should have been done along time ago. But yes - obviously more questions should have been asked before hand - but they weren't😉 The people that could have stopped this "unfettered" act

didn't. Hindsight sure is 20/20 isn' it

but it still doesn't change the fact that Saddam needed to be removed.

CkG

 

[bjc112]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Unfortunately, I think the British are better-informed than the average American. They aren't as lazy intellectually. They don't insist their news be packaged as entertainment. It also helps that the BBC is so much more balanced than America's conservative media.

Americas CONSERVATIVE media???!?!?

PLEASE.

 

[BOBDN]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: BOBDN

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: BOBDN

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Unfortunately, I think the British are better-informed than the average American. They aren't as lazy intellectually. They don't insist their news be packaged as entertainment. It also helps that the BBC is so much more balanced than America's conservative media.

Your first part was on point. But your second part is confusing if you are assuming that the BBC is a conservative outfit, which it isn't. It would be better if you compared the BBC to CNN, or better yet NPR. BBC and Fox News are in different boats, media-wise.

And BTW, the BBC is not balanced at all. You seem to forget the recent fight between the BBC and the government where a government scientist committed suicide. The BBC later said that its reporting was flawed and it was wrong not to go to the intelligence agencies to hear their side of the story. If anything, that is the first thing they teach you in journalism school, to get both sides of the story.

The BBC is balanced enough to stand up to the UK government. Unlike our own right wing press.

Fox is our only press? Cripes. Just because Fox is kicking all the liberal news sources asses - they are "our press" now? You seem to forget that the other evening entertainme...uh I mean news sources aren't without bias too😉 But I guess that only the press you agree with is without bias though - huh? And they are the only ones who will "stand up" to the gov't. Incase you forgot - the press is there to report - not stand up to or bring down the gov't.

Sit BOBDN Sit, good dog. ruff!

CkG

I didn't mention any specific news outlet. Just our own right wing press. Why would you bring up Fox?

And the press does need to stand up to government rather than bend over for the White House and be complicit in scripted newsconferences and repeating White House talking points. Their job isn't just to report but to ask the questions that need to be asked to get the answers we need to hear.

I know this will be difficult for you to understand but if we allow the government to act unfettered we wind up with situations like Iraq. No one bothered to ask the hard questions and even if they did the Bush administration wouldn't have answered the questions. That isn't how a fair and open democracy works. I wonder if Iraq will recognize that when they are treated to the Bush administration's idea of freedom.

I haven't seen one Bush news conference in the past 3 years (there have been fewer than a dozen since Bush took office) where Bush had to field questions from the news corps.

Umm, maybe because FOX is the only one?😛 (television wise - like the BBC) Please name the other "right wing press" outlets? I'm pretty sure I could come up with quite a list of liberal ones.

No - the press is there to report - ask question - yes. But your attitude that they are somehow "defending" people by "standing up to" the gov't is more than a tad absurd if you cling to their claim of not having an agenda😉.

I know this will be hard for YOU to understand, but the Iraq war was VERY neccessary, and should have been done along time ago. But yes - obviously more questions should have been asked before hand - but they weren't😉 The people that could have stopped this "unfettered" act

didn't. Hindsight sure is 20/20 isn' it

but it still doesn't change the fact that Saddam needed to be removed.

CkG

So exactly what benefits have the US and the world derived from the VERY necessary Iraq war?

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: bjc112

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Unfortunately, I think the British are better-informed than the average American. They aren't as lazy intellectually. They don't insist their news be packaged as entertainment. It also helps that the BBC is so much more balanced than America's conservative media.

Americas CONSERVATIVE media???!?!?

PLEASE.

Yes, America's CONSERVATIVE media. The whole "liberal media" canard is just another myth, cut from the same cloth as Republicans being the party of fiscal conservatism and smaller governemnt. When you stop reading the press releases and start paying attention, you'll find much of what you take for granted is BS.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Unfortunately, I think the British are better-informed than the average American. They aren't as lazy intellectually. They don't insist their news be packaged as entertainment. It also helps that the BBC is so much more balanced than America's conservative media.

Your first part was on point. But your second part is confusing if you are assuming that the BBC is a conservative outfit, which it isn't. It would be better if you compared the BBC to CNN, or better yet NPR. BBC and Fox News are in different boats, media-wise.

And BTW, the BBC is not balanced at all. You seem to forget the recent fight between the BBC and the government where a government scientist committed suicide. The BBC later said that its reporting was flawed and it was wrong not to go to the intelligence agencies to hear their side of the story. If anything, that is the first thing they teach you in journalism school, to get both sides of the story.

I didn't say the BBC is conservative. I said American media is predominately conservative. Not just Fox "News", but most mainstream US media.

The BBC is balanced. Do they make mistakes? Sure. Unless they're consistently making mistakes to support the same ideology, it means they're human, not slanted.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: bjc112

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Unfortunately, I think the British are better-informed than the average American. They aren't as lazy intellectually. They don't insist their news be packaged as entertainment. It also helps that the BBC is so much more balanced than America's conservative media.

Americas CONSERVATIVE media???!?!?

PLEASE.

Yes, America's CONSERVATIVE media. The whole "liberal media" canard is just another myth, cut from the same cloth as Republicans being the party of fiscal conservatism and smaller governemnt. When you stop reading the press releases and start paying attention, you'll find much of what you take for granted is BS.

Buahahaha

Sit Bowfinger Sit, good dog. ruff! 😛

You are as blatantly partisan as you accuse "the right" of being😛

CkG

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Yes, America's CONSERVATIVE media. The whole "liberal media" canard is just another myth, cut from the same cloth as Republicans being the party of fiscal conservatism and smaller governemnt. When you stop reading the press releases and start paying attention, you'll find much of what you take for granted is BS.

Buahahaha

Sit Bowfinger Sit, good dog. ruff! 😛

You are as blatantly partisan as you accuse "the right" of being😛

CkG

Is that your latest shtick, "Sit (xyz) sit ..."? I suppose it fills the void when you have nothing intelligent to contribute. Still, it's just as lame as your previous "run along" and "another dart missed" routines.

Here's a revolutionary idea for you, Sir Cad. When you have nothing to say ... don't.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Is that your latest shtick, "Sit (xyz) sit ..."? I suppose it fills the void when you have nothing intelligent to contribute. Still, it's just as lame as your previous "run along" and "another dart missed" routines.

Here's a revolutionary idea for you, Sir Cad. When you have nothing to say ... don't.

Yes, Cad could fill a small book with his condescending comments.

Look out Annie, you've got competition. 😉

One thing I always wondered about - Why is CNN considered liberal? It seems to me, one of the few times a news channel can swing one way or another is when they offer commentary. At least on CNN, the commentary is held to a minimal level. Fox, on the other hand, seems to thrive on the commentary. CNN, at least as far as I can tell, pretty much just reports the news. Can someone point out what's so liberal about it?

 

[Miramonti]

If Blair is going to save his party he's going to have to admit that Bush and Co. lied to them as well as everyone else.

 

[Moonbeam]

To be able to steal the Presidency and watch the people sit by and do nothing about it gives you a feeling of immortality that you can get away with anything. If the joker gets a second term the slide into fascism will surely accelerate.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Clearly, the BBC got carried away by letting agenda/tabloid mentality drive their reporting. I wouldn't slander them by saying they are like FOXNews but this episode has not been their finest hour.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Clearly, the BBC got carried away by letting agenda/tabloid mentality drive their reporting. I wouldn't slander them by saying they are like FOXNews but this episode has not been their finest hour.

I had to laugh. I watched Fox for a few hours yesterday. The were butchering and selling Clark for 13 cents a pound. It was so forced it was histerical. They played up, for example, his early support of Bush and his attitude now as if he hadn't addressed that issue in the dabate. Sort of like accusing the US of slavery from the original Constitution.

 

[BOBDN]

More on Blair's problems from Reuters.

I can't wait for the end of next month. Bush will get a worse welcome than David Blaine from the Brits.

Britain's Blair to Fight on Despite Grim Polls

"Forty-one percent of party members polled by The Observer wanted Blair to step down before the next election.

Sixty-four percent of voters polled by the News Of The World tabloid no longer trusted Blair. A Sunday Times poll showed Labour's support had fallen to just 30 percent."

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Here's a revolutionary idea for you, Sir Cad. When you have nothing to say ... don't.

Likewise😉

For you to think that America's press is conservative is complete non-sense. The press has been liberal for a great many years, only since the spawn of FOX - have they had to moderate some more because they are getting their ass handed to them in the ratings. I don't pretend to think that they were all far left, but they certainly did lean to the left of center. To think otherwise is pure ignorance.

CkG

Edit - heh - I kind of like that "Sir Cad" shtick you got going on. It's about time you gave me the proper respect😀


PS- I know Monty Python well - and I am far from being the black knight😉

 

[BOBDN]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Here's a revolutionary idea for you, Sir Cad. When you have nothing to say ... don't.

Likewise😉

For you to think that America's press is conservative is complete non-sense. The press has been liberal for a great many years, only since the spawn of FOX - have they had to moderate some more because they are getting their ass handed to them in the ratings. I don't pretend to think that they were all far left, but they certainly did lean to the left of center. To think otherwise is pure ignorance.

CkG

Edit - heh - I kind of like that "Sir Cad" shtick you got going on. It's about time you gave me the proper respect😀


PS- I know Monty Python well - and I am far from being the black knight😉

You only need to look at who owns the American press to determine its political persuasion. The American press has been conservative for years. As long as conservatives have been labeling it liberal.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: BOBDN

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Here's a revolutionary idea for you, Sir Cad. When you have nothing to say ... don't.

Likewise😉

For you to think that America's press is conservative is complete non-sense. The press has been liberal for a great many years, only since the spawn of FOX - have they had to moderate some more because they are getting their ass handed to them in the ratings. I don't pretend to think that they were all far left, but they certainly did lean to the left of center. To think otherwise is pure ignorance.

CkG

Edit - heh - I kind of like that "Sir Cad" shtick you got going on. It's about time you gave me the proper respect😀


PS- I know Monty Python well - and I am far from being the black knight😉

You only need to look at who owns the American press to determine its political persuasion. The American press has been conservative for years. As long as conservatives have been labeling it liberal.

Exactly. The "liberal media" myth is just as out-of-date as the Republicans being fiscally conservative and proponents of smaller government. It may have been true at one time. If so, it was a long time ago.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: BOBDN

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Here's a revolutionary idea for you, Sir Cad. When you have nothing to say ... don't.

Likewise😉

For you to think that America's press is conservative is complete non-sense. The press has been liberal for a great many years, only since the spawn of FOX - have they had to moderate some more because they are getting their ass handed to them in the ratings. I don't pretend to think that they were all far left, but they certainly did lean to the left of center. To think otherwise is pure ignorance.

CkG

Edit - heh - I kind of like that "Sir Cad" shtick you got going on. It's about time you gave me the proper respect😀


PS- I know Monty Python well - and I am far from being the black knight😉

You only need to look at who owns the American press to determine its political persuasion. The American press has been conservative for years. As long as conservatives have been labeling it liberal.

Exactly. The "liberal media" myth is just as out-of-date as the Republicans being fiscally conservative and proponents of smaller government. It may have been true at one time. If so, it was a long time ago.

It has never been true. You can't find liberal radio except in San Franciscp and Berkeley where still some light can shine. Even what we have is pretty tame.

 

[LunarRay]

The press on TV is entertainment. Pure simple entertainment. They are on because of ratings and the $ they can charge per commercial slot. If their audience stops watching they will follow. Just like the radio here in San Diego... pure Conservative..
But, it is all part of the Agenda to control the information you are fed. You hear and then you think you know. In some things you do.. but, not all. We are predisposed to accept and reject. To be informed you must accept nothing and everything and see if you can discern truth amonst it... then conclude or build upon piece by piece. You must never make the mistake of thinking all is as it seems as told by anyone.