The point of ATi's/nVidia's new video cards?

Page 4 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

TC91

Golden Member
Jul 9, 2007
1,164
0
0
Chaotic42 isn't BSing you guys. I had tons of problems with my 4870 1GB, particularly in Dungeon Siege 2, Age of Empires 3, and a couple other games I don't remember at this time (not to mention many other non game related issues). Compared to the 8800 GTS 320MB I had before the 4870 1GB, and the GTX 285 that replaced the 4870 1GB, performance in those games was absolutely horrid on the 4870 1GB. Anti-aliasing in Dawn of War 2 also did not work.

Tried every driver from 8.7 to 9.4 with no luck at all (sold the card in April). On top of that, ATI support also did squat when I contacted them about the issues, what a joke.
 

nitromullet

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2004
9,031
36
91
Originally posted by: Obsoleet
You brought your troubles on yourself by wasting your money and time with hodgepodge gimmicks.
then deal with the problems multiGPU solutions bring without complaints.

Originally posted by: bryanW1995
You SHOULD HAVE expected to have issues when you opted for crossfire.

I totally do not understand this line of reasoning... ATI/NV both sell multi-gpu cards and systems. These aren't pitched as 'beta', 'test', or 'YMMV'; but as finished, consumer ready solutions. Sure, I get that whenever the complexity of a system is increased it has a greater chance of error, but you make it sound as if the consumer is to blame just because they bought a product with the expectation that it function as claimed by the manufacturer.

This is especially unacceptable when the manufacturer has opted to go the dual gpu route to compete on the high end (which they both have). Sure, it's nice to be able to have the longest bars on benchmark graphs, but when push comes to shove that performance has to be usable by the end user.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
50
91
Originally posted by: nitromullet
Originally posted by: Obsoleet
You brought your troubles on yourself by wasting your money and time with hodgepodge gimmicks.
then deal with the problems multiGPU solutions bring without complaints.

Originally posted by: bryanW1995
You SHOULD HAVE expected to have issues when you opted for crossfire.

I totally do not understand this line of reasoning... ATI/NV both sell multi-gpu cards and systems. These aren't pitched as 'beta', 'test', or 'YMMV'; but as finished, consumer ready solutions. Sure, I get that whenever the complexity of a system is increased it has a greater chance of error, but you make it sound as if the consumer is to blame just because they bought a product with the expectation that it function as claimed by the manufacturer.

This is especially unacceptable when the manufacturer has opted to go the dual gpu route to compete on the high end (which they both have). Sure, it's nice to be able to have the longest bars on benchmark graphs, but when push comes to shove that performance has to be usable by the end user.

I sort of agree with this, with one exception. The consumer's rig and how it is configured usually plays a huge part in system stability. IMHO, the happiest CF or SLI consumer would be the one who starts this road with a freshly installed OS, latest drivers for all the hardware, and most important of all, disable automatic updates from MS.

A clean system will dramatically lessen chances of errors or issues. This is pretty much common sense. So, while the consumer is not to directly be blamed for CF/SLI issues, they do share some of the responsibility to keep their systems clean. There are billions of computers out there, and it's pretty much a given that each one is as unique in it's setup as every person it unique. For a manufacturer to guarantee 100% trouble free operations of their products on all of them, is just a dream. That can't happen. That's why there are troubleshooting sections and F.A.Q.'s on most vendors sites.
 

dguy6789

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2002
8,558
3
76
I have owned a 4870 for about a year and haven't had a single problem in a huge array of games both new and old. I've played many of the games other users mentioned that they had problems with and didn't have any problems myself.

9 times out of 10, computer problems are user error.
 

Chaotic42

Lifer
Jun 15, 2001
33,929
1,097
126
Originally posted by: bryanW1995
You SHOULD HAVE expected to have issues when you opted for crossfire. Again, I strongly believe that your issues are not with amd cards in general but with the crossfire implementation in particular.

I did expect issues. I had issues. However my point is that I shouldn't still have issues. My issues probably are with Crossfire, which is why I said they make great hardware. It really is pretty good stuff. However, the 4870x2 which I have was released in August of 2008. 13 months is an unacceptably long time for their Crossfire technology (which has been out since 2005) to still be broken.

I guess you're right, it is my fault for expecting ATI to be able to have their technology working properly after four years. My bad.



 

Pelu

Golden Member
Mar 3, 2008
1,208
0
0
Originally posted by: Rezist
I know this has probably been done to death in the past, but right now it applies even more so. Why are we so excited for new video cards when we really have nothing to use them for except benchmarks? PC gaming has really declined in the last couple of years due to the consoles and now more then ever the PC is the one getting shafted with the port.

What games are you playing in which your unhappy with the performance and are willing to shell out the money to upgrade?

sometimes i feel the same... why keep messing with PC hardware when the platform in general is down... is even selling less than 1 billion lol... in games of course...
 

Obsoleet

Platinum Member
Oct 2, 2007
2,181
1
0
Originally posted by: Chaotic42
Originally posted by: bryanW1995
You SHOULD HAVE expected to have issues when you opted for crossfire. Again, I strongly believe that your issues are not with amd cards in general but with the crossfire implementation in particular.

I did expect issues. I had issues. However my point is that I shouldn't still have issues. My issues probably are with Crossfire, which is why I said they make great hardware. It really is pretty good stuff. However, the 4870x2 which I have was released in August of 2008. 13 months is an unacceptably long time for their Crossfire technology (which has been out since 2005) to still be broken.

I guess you're right, it is my fault for expecting ATI to be able to have their technology working properly after four years. My bad.

The thing is that it's not like Nvidia's does either.
Problem lies in Xfire or SLI, it'll never really be straightened out and it's a moot point now with Larrabee on the way. A multiGPU solution invisible to the drivers would work better like Larrabee or the new ATI stuff that's coming should be.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
2
61
Originally posted by: mwmorph
Originally posted by: Qbah
I'd say to have something like this rendered in real-time at an acceptable framerate? Link from PC Gaming forums :)

I find it funny that people keep saying, graphical quality is stagnant. When you get to the point of Crysis, there really is little place to go and the wall of diminishing returns comes in. Vegetation and lighting already looks so lifelike. The nanosuit looks great, hell almost all character models look realistic (ignoring human faces, which man has never been able to artifically duplicate in any medium convincingly). The only place in improvements might come into play that really tend to break the immersion are human face textures which will almost be impossible.

If the 5870 or GT300 allow gamers to run high rez, high detail smoothly in games that look like Crysis, I really thing that beyond that, purely graphical wise, there's little reason to upgrade any further in the foreseeable future.

Ahh, you have no imagination. Think Crysis-like graphics with huge areas like GTA IV. Then think bigger. :D
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Originally posted by: Pelu
Originally posted by: Rezist
I know this has probably been done to death in the past, but right now it applies even more so. Why are we so excited for new video cards when we really have nothing to use them for except benchmarks? PC gaming has really declined in the last couple of years due to the consoles and now more then ever the PC is the one getting shafted with the port.

What games are you playing in which your unhappy with the performance and are willing to shell out the money to upgrade?

sometimes i feel the same... why keep messing with PC hardware when the platform in general is down... is even selling less than 1 billion lol... in games of course...

I'd say revenues on the PC have shifted. More towards MMORPGs. One in particular has more revenues than the entire gaming industry combined(WoW).
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,381
7,444
136
Title: The point of ATi's/nVidia's new video cards?

My 8800 series video card can't touch WoW at max settings. Would be nice to do so at a reasonable price. Current hardware is too expensive for my taste.
 

imaheadcase

Diamond Member
May 9, 2005
3,850
7
76
I've yet to find a reason NOT to upgrade to a better card when one worth buying comes out..not increment updates mine you. TF2 has been out how long now and it still benefits from better cards.

I don't see what the OP is saying about decline of PC games, i've seen a increase with Steam being around.
 

dunno99

Member
Jul 15, 2005
145
0
0
Originally posted by: Rezist
I know this has probably been done to death in the past, but right now it applies even more so. Why are we so excited for new video cards when we really have nothing to use them for except benchmarks? PC gaming has really declined in the last couple of years due to the consoles and now more then ever the PC is the one getting shafted with the port.

What games are you playing in which your unhappy with the performance and are willing to shell out the money to upgrade?

I don't know about you, but I'm excited because I get to develop using the new features so that you folks can play them later. If AMD/nVidia don't release new hardware, I can't make revolutionary new features, and you'll be stuck with pretty much the same thing. It's like a classic chicken or egg problem. =)
 

bryanW1995

Lifer
May 22, 2007
11,144
32
91
Originally posted by: Chaotic42
Originally posted by: bryanW1995
You SHOULD HAVE expected to have issues when you opted for crossfire. Again, I strongly believe that your issues are not with amd cards in general but with the crossfire implementation in particular.

I did expect issues. I had issues. However my point is that I shouldn't still have issues. My issues probably are with Crossfire, which is why I said they make great hardware. It really is pretty good stuff. However, the 4870x2 which I have was released in August of 2008. 13 months is an unacceptably long time for their Crossfire technology (which has been out since 2005) to still be broken.

I guess you're right, it is my fault for expecting ATI to be able to have their technology working properly after four years. My bad.

If you are still having problems today with all the listed games, but others are NOT having those same problems, then you have other issues. Maybe a defective card. Maybe another system component is messed up. Maybe one of the cat or MS updates caused problems. Maybe all of the above. All I was saying was that crossfire and/or sli problems are not new or unexpected. If I was in the market for the top single card solution I would still happily trade 10-20% performance for a single gpu card vs a crossfire on a stick solution. Possibly in the future this will not be the case, but honestly neither team has shown any ability to produce completely or even mostly problem-free multi gpu solutions.
 

Chaotic42

Lifer
Jun 15, 2001
33,929
1,097
126
Originally posted by: bryanW1995
If you are still having problems today with all the listed games, but others are NOT having those same problems, then you have other issues.

The WoW problem was well documented.
NWN
BF2
GTA:SA

Anyway, I should take back what I said. I will consider ATI in the future, but I will not consider any x2 or Crossfire solutions.
 

bryanW1995

Lifer
May 22, 2007
11,144
32
91
Have you tried disabling crossfire to ensure that you don't have some other issue? You might find that, in your case, crossfire is not always the culprit, but there could very well be some sort of issue with your system that others have not experienced. I agree with you, I would have to really NEED crossfire or sli to use it these days. Well, if I end up getting an x58 mobo and gpus are cheap...then I might do it and come back here to say "I told you so" to myself...
 

Chaotic42

Lifer
Jun 15, 2001
33,929
1,097
126
Originally posted by: bryanW1995
Have you tried disabling crossfire to ensure that you don't have some other issue? You might find that, in your case, crossfire is not always the culprit, but there could very well be some sort of issue with your system that others have not experienced. I agree with you, I would have to really NEED crossfire or sli to use it these days. Well, if I end up getting an x58 mobo and gpus are cheap...then I might do it and come back here to say "I told you so" to myself...

I tried it with Saints Row 2 and it worked. NWN has a some work arounds. I should try it with everything else though. I'm too stubborn to turn off one of the GPUs. :p
 

natty1

Member
Apr 28, 2008
169
0
0
People complain when we have games that are too demanding for current cards. And then people complain when we have cards that are too fast for current games.

 

natty1

Member
Apr 28, 2008
169
0
0
Originally posted by: mwmorph
Originally posted by: Qbah
I'd say to have something like this rendered in real-time at an acceptable framerate? Link from PC Gaming forums :)

I find it funny that people keep saying, graphical quality is stagnant. When you get to the point of Crysis, there really is little place to go and the wall of diminishing returns comes in. Vegetation and lighting already looks so lifelike. The nanosuit looks great, hell almost all character models look realistic (ignoring human faces, which man has never been able to artifically duplicate in any medium convincingly). The only place in improvements might come into play that really tend to break the immersion are human face textures which will almost be impossible.

If the 5870 or GT300 allow gamers to run high rez, high detail smoothly in games that look like Crysis, I really thing that beyond that, purely graphical wise, there's little reason to upgrade any further in the foreseeable future.

wrong, we aren't even close to lifelike yet

to get there we're gonna need monitors with smaller pixels and higher resolution
 

LOUISSSSS

Diamond Member
Dec 5, 2005
8,771
54
91
so whens the release date of the new AT 58xx cards? i'm going to get one the first week
 

jimhsu

Senior member
Mar 22, 2009
705
0
76
Originally posted by: Kakkoii
You don't have to do that to every single thing in the game. That's why I was talking about middleware. You have software that creates these random variations, imperfections for you based on a bit of input first of course.

Watch this video and you'll get an idea of what I mean. It's near the end of the video:
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/z...howthread.php?t=074539

The noise feature they will be implementing is sort of what I mean. The same as real life, random imperfections.

....

I really think the future will be better developmental tools - things that they once dreamed of in 1980 but don't have the processing power to do then:

- Dynamic fractal landscapes
- Sculpting instead of modeling ala Zbrush
- Painting instead of texturing
- The death of the vertex/edge/polygon concept (see above). Hopefully modeling using polygons will seem as quaint, archaic, and hacker-ish as writing programs in machine code these days.
- Real-time computation of all lighting, shadowing, effects, everything from basic physics (fractal, of course)

With the right tools, a quantum leap in development ability is inevitable.



 

WaitingForNehalem

Platinum Member
Aug 24, 2008
2,497
0
71
Originally posted by: zebrax2
Originally posted by: WaitingForNehalem
I also don't understand the reason of buying a new graphics cards when there are no games to take advantage of it. I want PC exclusives!

Well exclusives are not necessary just bring in decent ports

If I wanted ports I'd get a console. Sure you can make it look better but it is the same game. I'm all for some multi-platform games but not to the extent we are experiencing now. I'm not just talking about the PC either, but every platform just shares a library and the only exclusives are made by first-party devs. Since we have no first-party to back us up with exclusives, we now only get exclusives from small, new companies (GSC). Once these companies get larger, they move on to consoles to make more money (Epic, Crytek, Id, Bethesda). Duke Nukem Forever definitely would have given the PC its former image of having amazing exclusives that couldn't be replicated on consoles. Hopefully, it will still come out.