The Pledge and the Flag....

[Opinionated]

Ok, so my attempt to discuss the freedom of speech degenerated into a totally unintended religious squabble.... Let me try this one....

What are your thoughts on the Pledge of Allegiance and The American Flag in public school.

When I was in school, we said the POA every morning first thing while saluting the American Flag, which was displayed in every classroom. We were taught the old standard patriotic songs, what the Flag's colors and construction symbolized, and how to properly display, care for, and otherwise respect the Flag as a symbol of our respect for our country.

I was in my son's school the other day.... The only flag on campus was the tattered and faded all-weather (where the hell did those come from) flag on the main flag pole.... which I have watched the janitor drag down occasionally and wad it up with no respect or ceremony at all.... I even watched him drag it on the ground once.

Not one flag in any classroom, and they don't even say the Pledge at assemblies!

I find this very disturbing. I STILL get chills everytime I am given the priviledge of saluting my countries flag.

Opinionated

 

[madthumbs]

It wasn't a priveledge, it was imposed on us. It was not out of appreciation. The pledge acknowledges a god, so that makes it religious (sorry). The flag which is an inanimate object which is also given adoration becomes an object of worship; also religion.

I'll be the first to say this thread has got to be a joke. Sorry for the seriousness, but some may not get it.

 

[Opinionated]

Madthumbs, I do not find anything at all funny about this thread. It's no joke; I am quite serious about the subject.

Such a sad, sad state of affairs.... Why is it that people are so quick to tear down entire concepts when they find that they disagree with a little part of it. That's like tearing down an entire house, because you don't like the color of the paint in the living room. Not a great comparison, but it communicates the level of absurdity I see in both.

Our money has "In God We Trust" on it. Oops, it has the "G" word.... But I don't see anyone rushing to eliminate money.... Most folks are doing everything they can to accumulate as much of it as possible...

I don't worship my country, and I certainly don't worship the flag... But I respect both, respect what they stand for, and honor the people and sacrifices that made this the best place in the world to live.

I was NEVER forced to say the pledge, salute the flag, or anything else. I CHOOSE to do so. No one in my school was ever forced to do so. Those that didn't wish to participate didn't have to... simple.

Opinionated

 

[Opinionated]

Red,

Actually, I think it does. You see, I believe our young people learn MOST of their values by observation and repetition, not lecture. If they SEE us showing respect for our country by rendering proper courtesy to the flag, or LEARN to show respect by saying (preferably learning what it means) the pledge or learning about the flag or making "flag detail". We competed for membership on the "flag detail" when I was in school.

Perhaps you are right.... Maybe I WILL replace it, and help to maintain it.... Of course, I'd end up getting in trouble I'm sure. Some kid would come up to me and ask about the flag.... i'd teach him what the flag means, stands for, etc... all about saluting, etc.... and before you know it, I'd have the Anti-Patriot suing me for "propagandizing" his kid.

Yeah Red, you are also right that those 10 or 20 kids might indeed show up.... 10 or 20 out of the hundreds in the school, yelling and screaming at the psycho to stop desecrating the flag. Of course, 20-30 years ago, the psycho could never have gotten the flag down with hundreds of kids beating the crap out of him.

Opinionated

 

[Opinionated]

<< OK, then what's the problem then? >>



Simple.... MY son doesn't get the right to choose anymore. They've simply taken that priviledge away.

I whole-heartedly agree with you that much of our societies problems are in fact traceable to a serius lack of proper child-rearing. But come on.... the schools are MAJOR contributors to the societies problems.... Stupid, uneducated, young people make terrible citizens.



<< Lay off the schools and the Right Winging judgemental act, you know what I am saying is the truth. >>



Dude, how is it that loving your country, wishing your children could grow up with the same societal support you had, and criticizing the public school system (a system universally decried as failing in its purpose) is a Right Wing judgemental act? Since when did it become a bad thing to want to make things better.

 

[Spoooon]

I'm with Red. My values were learned at home, not at school. I learned how to read, write, and do math at school. I learned about honor, respect, and to appreciate my country and its symbols at home. School taught me nothing about patriotism and loyalty. School taught me history. I learned from the history books that people fought and died for freedom. I learned from my father what freedom really was. When I was in elementary school(only about 10-15 years ago), we did the Pledge of Allegiance. Also, we were told that if we had any objections from a religious standpoint, we could abstain from saying it. You would just have to stand quietly while the others recited the pledge. I'm hardly religious, but I'm no less a patriot because I don't believe in God. I think man makes his own place in the world. And I think that the United States is something special and we alone are responsible for it. We certainly claim to live for lofty ideals and I think that for the most part people believe in them. This stuff, I learned at home. Not at school.

 

[purplehayes]

I'll take it one step further than Opinionated, and say that EVERY kid should be FORCED to say the Pledge of Alligence in a public school.

These kids are in a public school that is funded by tax paying citizens. Citizens that have the priviledge to work in this country thanks to the soldiers that have give of themselves, sometime their lives, to protect those freedoms and that flag.

If the kids and their parents have a problem with that, they have the option of a private or home schooling, where they can pay for their education themselves. Which, by the way, the have the freedom to choose because of those same soldiers.

PH

BTW - I'll get down off my soapbox now.

 

[Tominator]

Opinionated
I agree with you completely! It was a proud day for me when, in grade school, the Principal though enough of me to be put on 'Flag Detail.' Only after you demonstrated you knew the history behind it and the proper care were you granted the priviledge of hoisting Old Glory before school and lowering it that afternoon after classes. It NEVER touched the ground!

The Pledge was recited school wide every morning, without fail.

Unlike some others around here, I learned some values not only from my Parents, but everywhere I could. Church, school, Scouts and acquaintences.

Red Dawn


<< Whether the Flag is maintained or the Allegiance to it is said over the Loud Speaker has no influence on anybody's Patriotism >>



Full of crap...as usual!

 

[Bobsteroo]

This maybe a bit off topic but I'm surprised the government hasn't or hasn't been forced to removal all references to God on our currency.
I myself believe flag burning should be illegal, voluntary pray should be allowed, and the pledge should be recited. It seems to me some people won't be happy until we all are asexual, homongenous (sic?) and socialist society. A lot of men and woman have given their life for me to be an opinonated ass, and I thank my God my Country for them!!!

 

[DABANSHEE]

Getting little kids to &quot;pledge an oath of allegance &amp; salute the flag&quot;, sounds like something that goes on at a Hitler Youth meeting, not a public school in a modern western leaning secular state.

 

[Bobsteroo]

Modern western leaning secular state????

Morals, allegances, discipline. Who needs all that crap! Lets do away with families too!!!

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

I think that <EDIT> a </EDIT> citizen of the United States would be DAMN PROUD of their country and the symbol that represents it. I know that the people who came before me gave more than I've given so far for my freedom, and I respect almost nothing above that.

I love my country.

I love MY flag.

I will and I DO pledge my life-long allegiance to it and the country for which it stands.



I pledge my life to liberty, the ever-corrupting &quot;AmericanWay&quot;, and justice for all.





&quot;...And Justice For All&quot; --Metallica

 

[Czar]

Great one debanshee


<< Getting little kids to &quot;pledge an oath of allegance &amp; salute the flag&quot;, sounds like something that goes on at a Hitler Youth meeting, not a public school in a modern western leaning secular state >>


Forcing kids to do this is not freedom. Some kid in some school in the US got kicked out of school because she refused to say the oath every morning.

 

[Bobsteroo]

Maybe forcing some kids do do things would teach respect and reverence, or maybe we should just let them run rampant shooting each other doing drugs. Hell why even force them to go to school?

 

[apoppin]

Actually, during WWII children were forced to salute the flag/say the Pledge or be expelled from school.

A religious group - on the basis of conscience and &quot;exclusive devotion&quot; to God - refused to say the Pledge of Allegiance. (I think they were Jehovah's witnesses.) The matter went to the Supreme Court and their children were finally allowed back in school.

Sorry, purplehayes, it is NOT manditory.

 

[Czar]

Shooting everyone, well it seems that they do that anyway.

I´v never pledged anythin to my flag or my nation. I never sing the national anthem, when I see my flag I see it as our simbol, I know that. Flag burning doesnt matter because a flag is only a replica of the simbol. I would never pledge some patriotic oath to my flag or something else, not even if I was forced to do so. I think freedom is all about making up your own mind, by brainwashing your youth with meaning less oaths is not freedom. This is not what you want your youth to do and you dont see me going around doing drugs and shooting people.

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

it shouldn't BE mandatory. But if someone has a problem with something so simple and yet so meaningful and loyal, why are they US citizens?

 

[Bobsteroo]

Right on FFMCobalt!

 

[Czar]

FFMCobalt

This is the same as with religion, your contry is christian, but how many of them actually go to church every week, not many. But they all are still christians, because they think they are. People are US citizens as long as they think they are, they dont need some stupid oath to be one.

 

[montanafan]

At my high school the kids have a prayer circle around the flagpole mornings, there's a flag in every classroom and first thing each morning a group of students leads the school in the pledge. No one is forced to do it, but they all stand, face the flag, and most put their hand over their heart. We also have a Youth Alive Christian club at the school that meets most days during lunch. It's a public school with about 500 students in a rural area.

 

[Bobsteroo]

Red Dawn you missed the point! I'm not holding schools responsible for my kids up bringing. I was insinuating why make anything mandatory....lets let everyone do as they please, with out regards to anyone or anything. Chaos rules!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

You can spend all the time with your kids as you want, but keeping them with you 24-7 in your crack house won't do them any good. You have to raise them in a decent, competent (did I spell that right?) environment.

Teach them right. Tell them the TRUTH. Not just have them around.

Tell them what people of old have sacrificed for the people of today. Tell them that people lost their lives so that they wouldn't have to live under complete government dictation and absolute social oppression (yeah, it exists here and now, but not like other countries at all).

Damn, my kids will know that. My kids will understand the honor that I hold by being a US citizen. Then and only then (when the realize all of this), will they choose outright. I hope that they do not dishonor me, their family and their country by not appreciating it for what it is.

 

[apoppin]

It ISN'T manditory.



<< If they have a problem with something so simple and yet so meaningful and loyal, why are they US citizens? >>



Because they were born here.

Haven't you heard of conscience, FFMCobalt?

From out history lessons we learn the early Christians would rather die than perform a &quot;simple and yet so meaningful and loyal&quot; act as saluting the Roman Emperor. They rightly considered it worship - and their leader Jesus said God gets EXCLUSIVE devotion. That Christians were &quot;no part of the world&quot; (John 17:16).

Saluting the flag and the Pledge of Allegiance is a religious observance. That's why it's called &quot;Service, reverence, devotion&quot; to the flag.

 

[Czar]

montanafan, mannn your school is fuct, but thats my opinion and thats freedom.

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Czar,

We're not all Christians. Don't stereotype like we do. (*snicker*)

Going to church doesn't make you a Christian. People understand that.

Why is this the country of diversity if we're all Christian??

touche


apoppin,
I'm a Christian. I love Christ and His Father. I love my country. But my God comes before my country. I salute my flag only after I salute my God. relax man... saluting my flag and pledging allegiance to it is not being a Heretic.