The Planets align in December

[Demoth]

First we have Penryn coming. Not only is it a die shrink to 45NM, but it has an architecture that allows approx 30% more energy efficiency. This all translates into the cheaper low clocked penryns getting 3.5+ OCs with a simple FSB bump and running quite a bit faster then a core 2 at the same clock speed. It will also support SSE4 which will come into play once DX10 games get established.

Next we have the 1 teraflop beast, the G92. Penryn will allow more bottleneck leeway on this. The 65NM card should pull about the same energy as a current G80, even with it's greatly increased clock speed, due to it's design. A 2x speed increase will mean the difference between playing DX 10 titles such as Age of Conan at high res with high settings versus low settings. Initial rumors are also hinting increased IQ with the G92. G92 should be the biggest generation performance jump since the ATI 9700pro hit market.

Then we have motherboard revisions coming. The G92 will support and perform optimally with PCIe 2.0. Much more power from the PCIe slot and double the signal able to be processed means increased performance beyond the actual frequency increase. DDR3 support should also be somewhat useful once the technology is optimized.

All this is coming to mass production in a mere 5 months, right when the first bulk of true DX10 games will be coming to market and vista will be relatively ready for gaming. Upgrading at this point will net you a strong system at the higher end for 2 years vs upgrading now and having something that will need to be upgraded again soon if you want to jump to DX10.

 

[baronzemo78]

I agree with you. I am holding out on Penryn and Nvidia's next mobo and high end GPU although today's rumors point to the G92 as a midrange card. I'm still confident they will release a high end card this fall though. With Bioshock and Crysis out they would be foolish not to.

 

[Harmattan]

I'm actually counting on this since I've timed my PC refresh towards Nov-Dec-Jan. My big wish is for less power-draw than my current system. I WILL NOT buy another PSU (been through 3 on this rig). I'd say I'd like to hold out for R700, but that would be laughable considering the R600 delay debacle.

If the planets in fact do align, of course, and there aren't any delays...

 

[LightningRider]

I want to wait till Penryn and DDR3 and G92 and X38 and all that but the Intel price cuts do look tempting. Now I'm thinking of just purchasing the cheapest 8800GTS I can find for the games coming out towards the end of summer and then doing the major overhaul when Q4 comes around and all the goodies get released.

Right now I have a Socket 939 Athlon X2 3800+ and a 7800GTX. Anyone think I should get the 8800GTS 320MB now? I would like to have DX10 when Bioshock, Crysis, etc etc etc come out, and I feel like I could use a performance boost in Oblivion...

 

[duragezic]

The 8800GTS 320mb is tempting due to its price, and I see so many benchmarks where it performs nearly exactly with the 640mb version, yet a bunch more showing it significantly slower. I want a 8800GTS big time, but the 640mb is so damn expensive. One factor is what resolution you will play at. 1280x1024 seems to be pretty similar between both versions. I play at 1680x1050, which seems to be on the edge of where the 320mb is close to the 640mb. Still undecided on that, so you should research it more.

I have to upgrade before then to play Crysis and other upcoming games at a decent resolution. I'm spending a net cost of ~$60 for a dual core Opteron at the same clock speed or higher (depending on overclock) than my single core, and looking to pick up a 8800GTS for $275 or less within 2 months, so I'll pay about $200 for it after selling my 7800GT.

All that good stuff in December will have to wait for me. I'll look at a complete overhault in about a year.

 

[MarcVenice]

I'm in the same boot here lightningRider and duragezic. Not sure if I should upgrade now. I think Demoth is confusing the g90 with the g92 though. I really want the 8800gts bad too though, my 7600gs just isn't hacking it anymore Sidenote, IF I get a 8800gts, I do need a new PSU too :S

"We heard about an upcoming GPU from NVIDIA on 256-bit memory interface earlier this month and we thought it is the rumored 256-bit version of G84. Now we learned that it is actually the next generation G92, a 65nm performance part supporting PCI Express 2.0 and 256-bit memory interface. G92 performance lies between GeForce 8800 GTS and 8600 GTS so it is not the highest end GPU from the G9x series yet. There might be a G90 which we haven't heard about yet and NVIDIA gave clues that their next generation GPU will deliver close to 1 TFlops of performance in a recent analyst conference. G9x could support Double Precision FP too. Sampling will start in September and slated for launch in November timeframe."

http://www.vr-zone.com/index.php?i=5092

 

[apoppin]

So why do a high end upgrade until then?

why NOT? it is cheap now and a performance-price effective upgrade over my AGP system [OC'd P4ee/x1950p/512m] ... my $115 e4300@3.105Ghz is a "placeholder" for Penryn which will be a 'drop-in' for my current MB with a BIOS update ... and my MB was not expensive

... and RAM is cheap as ... well, cheap ... get 4GB now or tough it out with 2GB for the fastest RAM to drop a bit further [maybe]
... and i got HD2900xt for $320 and apparently it smokes everything up to the GTX to allow me to max my visuals at 14x9 [4-8xAA/16xAF and even turn on the new filtering]

... so why are you waiting, again?

 

[LightningRider]

I know it is such a tough decision! My friend is overhauling his computer compltely after the July price cuts so I'm gonna build it for him. He's gonna get a Q6600 and all that. I will be kinda jealous of him having Quad Core so it makes it even harder to hold out till December. I hope Penryn is really worth the wait and that it comes out on time.

That said, thinking about it more and more, the 8800GTS is really becoming even harder to resist! I play at 1280x1024 so the 320MB is fine for me. I don't really want to spend much on one if I get one now so I wouldn't get the 640MB anyway. Cause I'd like to upgrade again when the G90 series comes out...

Do you guys think that my s939 3800+ X2 would bottleneck the 8800GTS much?

 

[Demoth]

In response to LightningRider...

Spend a minimal amount of money to get a quality heatsink/fan and a GPU cooler and some good thermal grease plus case fan if you dont have an input and exhaust. You'd be looking at $30 and could then proceed to overclock enough on what you have to pretty much max out oblivion unless your playing at a res over 1600X1200. If you have the Toledo X2, it will overclock pretty heavily.

Too bad 939 was so quickly phased out as it would be nice to just slap in a now cheap X2 5000+ in those systems for a decent boost. Other then that, you could get the cheapest 775 MB for core 2 (refurbs can be had for $30) and a core 2 4300 and OC it to 3.0, but you'd also be looking at new ram which really is going a bit over board for a stop gap system.

As far as system performance goes, your still at the lower end of the top range. Spending $250 to $300 on a vid card considering what you have now and what you are planning to get soon, makes little sense, even taking account you can ebay it later for $100. Oblivion also has a few higher settings that can be tweaked down, give improved performance and would be almost unnoticeable in play. Try this in combo with overclocking first.

 

[baronzemo78]

I was planning on upgrading to a Q6600 and 8800GTX after the July price cuts, then I found out that the 8800GTX won't fit in my case and that the G90 or whatever this fall should be significantly more powerful. Now I'm waiting for that. I think Crysis and Bioshock are going to bring the 8800GTX down to size.

 

[apoppin]

Spending $250 to $300 on a vid card considering what you have now and what you are planning to get soon, makes little sense, even taking account you can ebay it later for $100. Oblivion also has a few higher settings that can be tweaked down, give improved performance and would be almost unnoticeable in play. Try this in combo with overclocking first.

it *depends* on if you are satisfied or not .. i was NOT satisfied with my x1950p ... and s939 3800+ X2 would NOT bottleneck the 8800GTS much?
[not much - OC your CPU for less

 

[Ryland]

I am waiting for the G90 to come out so that I can grab a 8800GTX cheap when some resells theirs.

 

[MarcVenice]

g90 is frigging december. By then it will cost a LOT of money too, and I will be stuck with my 7600gs waiting for 8800gts prices to come down, playing games at low settings, and at bad framerates, for 6 months. Hmz, theres my dilemma though, would it be worth waiting, or should I perhaps buy a 1950xt for my 1024*768 screen, which I planned on upgrading later this year.

 

[LightningRider]

Hmm... well no one can deny the fact that, when all this good stuff comes out. It's all going to cost an arm and a leg. Penryn is going to be very expensive, as I'm sure they only release the top models first. DDR3 RAM is still going to be pretty steep too I imagine, especially if you want > 2GB, and a sweet mobo to support all this new stuff is also going to rack up on the bill. Now add in a new G90 video card... I'm thinking that it is going to be a lot of money. They are usually upwards of 600-700$ when they first come out.

Maybe it is better to get a cheaper 8800 now. I mean it is not as if you are forced to upgrade your video card when you get a Penryn system. You can keep the 8800*** until you have the money or want to spend the money for the G90. That is, assuming that a PCI-e 1.1 card will work in a PCI-e 2.0 slot. I'm assuming they are backwards compatible. (Can anyone clarify this??) So you can get yourself something cheaper now and you can still use it until you are ready or need to upgrade your video again. Looking at it that way, it doesn't seem like such a bad idea to upgrade now, at least the video card. I think going full Core 2 Duo from a Socket 939 system still running DDR would be kind of unwise when Penryn is just around the corner, unless you really need the performance now or want to take advantage of the low prices in July.

Besides that, you can always sell your old video card when you're ready for the G90. So does anyone know if PCI-e 1.1 cards are going to be backwards compatible with PCI-e 2.0 slots?

 

[Demoth]

Please understand my initial post is aimed towards those who do one big upgrade every few years and are willing to overclock. This would be the majority of gamers. Enthusiasts who are willing to spend on having the top end system at every given time or people who want to play a specific high req title now would still be wise to upgrade whenever the urge hits them.

This is for those people who are thinking of upgrading soon and start to get caught up in all the hype of 2900XT versus 8000 Ultra discussions by the enthusiasts. If you only do one big upgrade every few years, then waiting several more months makes a lot of sense.

If your building a budget gaming system, then yeah, the Intel July price cuts and a 8800GT would be about near as good as you will get for under $400 for the next year or so, but dont expect to play upcoming true DX10 titles with all eye candy maxxed.

I undertstand that something bigger and better is always just around the corner, but this next cycle is different. There is a difference between model upgrades due to speed increases and upgrades from die shrinks and new SSE tech. We have a convergence of die shrinks and new tech for both GPU and CPU plus a new standard for the vid card input and a new RAM standard all coming in 5 months. This type of thing only happens once every several revisions for each component and everything is coming together at one time partly because Vista will make use of it all.

Just saying keep this in mind before falling into the hype of what the top dog vid card is as of today.

Edit: To the previous poster, yes, PCIe 2.0 will be backwards compatible. Also Penryn should have lower clocked but very overclockable chips available from the start that will be pretty cheap to compete with Barcelona which will have been established. As far as the G92 (still the upcoming top card from what I hear, not the G90), that will depend on how competing ATI drivers eventually pan out, but will be expensive the first few months.

 

[LightningRider]

Good to know about the PCI-e 2.0.

I agree with you for those that do one big system upgrade once every few years then it is definitely worthwhile to wait for the end of the year when all these new technologies will be out. And it is exciting all these new things coming out at the same time. It is true that new things happening all at the same time like this does not happen very often in computer hardware and we all have a lot to look forward to. I can't wait!

 

[MarcVenice]

Hmz, g90 is gonna break 1 terraflop, that's a lot, but it's not like its gonna be lightning years ahead of the current g80. The increase in speed seems to be slightly higher percentagewise then previous years but not that major. ATM all the dx10 titles are being developed with the g80 in mind, not the g90. I really think alan wake for example will play just fine on a 8800gts 320/640 depending on the resolution.

Maybe waiting for the penryn might be wise, I can't really say, but what I'm trying to say is that videocards don't make HUGE jumps once every so many years, and if they do, you pay for it, just like any videocard right now. Or it would have the be a first time come this december, but I doubt it severely.

 

[Demoth]

The ability of the card itself to process information from 3X the current 8800 Ultra levels is a big thing in and of itself. Keep in mind this information was given to Nvidia investors, not a PR statement for the public or something dropped to a news site, venues that are usually far overblown by both Nvidia and ATI. Nvidia is doing well right now and rock solid financially. Intentionally trying to deceive investors and stock holders would make no sense and hurt manangement in the long run. When Nvidia brags to their investors a 1 teraflop beast is coming, expect a 2X real world increase over the 8800 Ultra with closer to a 3X increase possible.

Now, being able to compute a teraflop is one aspect of the improvements coming. PCIe 2.0 support means double the capacity to get that information processed and more direct power into the card without the need of a supplimental power connector. A 65nm process means less power draw and heat for the speed it is clocked and and likely much more room for overclocking.

If your upgrading from a old vid card like a 6600 or eqivalent like the garbage low end newer cards with lots of useless ram and decieveing model numbers, then yeah, since PCIe is backwards compatible, you can justify the upgrade. If you have a 7800GT or better equivalent and are playing most of the standard DX9 titles like Oblivion or any current MMO still, then it would make sense to hold and wait.

 

[bryanW1995]

Originally posted by: MarcVenice
g90 is frigging december. By then it will cost a LOT of money too, and I will be stuck with my 7600gs waiting for 8800gts prices to come down, playing games at low settings, and at bad framerates, for 6 months. Hmz, theres my dilemma though, would it be worth waiting, or should I perhaps buy a 1950xt for my 1024*768 screen, which I planned on upgrading later this year.

I'm leaning toward the x1950 xt route as a stopgap. I have a 1440x900 res, so I should be able to max out just about anything I'll play for a while with that card. Check this out: http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16814102067

 

[Looney]

Because 6 months is a damn long time to wait. If you're willing to wait 6 months for something, you're always going to see something better just over the horizon. Longest i've waited was 2 months, and that was for C2D.

If i want something, i'll get it now and enjoy it NOW.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: LightningRider
Good to know about the PCI-e 2.0.

I agree with you for those that do one big system upgrade once every few years then it is definitely worthwhile to wait for the end of the year when all these new technologies will be out. And it is exciting all these new things coming out at the same time. It is true that new things happening all at the same time like this does not happen very often in computer hardware and we all have a lot to look forward to. I can't wait!

and what IF g90 is a disappointment? ... 25% faster than the g80 ...

what then ... wait six more months?

the GTS is not a slow card, neither is the HD2900xt ... during those SIX long months of waiting ... if you are unsatisfied now, you will be hating by then

what is frustration worth to you? eliminating it cost me $1,000 ... and i have an easy upgrade path to Penryn [update BIOS, drop in] and the G92 if i so desire ... PCIe2.0 brings little to the backwards compatible PCIe.

your current GPUs have a little value now to resell ... they are 'throw-away' in 6 months ... don't forget to factor in their ever-diminishing value.

i figure i can get $200 for my 2900xt in December ... that is $120 for 6 months of "use"

i spent $250 on my x1950p ... and "lost" $100 over the last 6 months
--- somehow it doesn't feel like i "lost" anything - considering i could still be on my P4 2.80c with an x850xt if i didn't upgrade ... how much frustration would that be?
[too much ... for me]

 

[MarcVenice]

Bryan, why spend some decent money on a stopgap, if you could buy a dx10 card now, for 100$ more, and enjoy it till at least december when something better 'should' come out. I bet the 100$ is worth the extra performance, and the dx10 capabilities you're gonna need for crysis and such. For at least the 6 months you're gonna use it, the 100$ extra is worth it. Also, by then, if a new generation dx10 card comes out, dx9 is gonna be worth jack sh!t, but your 8800gts will still sell for a decent amount. Who knows, by then it might be very well possible that your 8800gts runs games just fine on high settings, and don't need a new card at all. 150$ is a good price for a 1950xt, but consider all that, do you not think the extra 100$ would be worth it ?

For your information, I decided to pull the trigger, I'm getting a 8800gts 320mb. It's performance is good, it's not TOO overpriced, I mean, its 120 euro's more then the videocard I bought a year ago, but it's like 5 times faster, I'll enjoy it for at least 6 months, but TBH, I can live with playing things on medium, and 4x AA/AF instead of 16x AA/AF, and even though I'd love to be living large, I can't, I'm a poor student, so I bet it will make me happy for at least 12/18 months.

Kinda what apoppin said, but in my point of view

 

[Zstream]

My take on the situation

If you are at a 3800+x2 specs right now then wait till December if you have a C2D now then wait till spring of 08'.

Let me explain my reasoning:

1. Alan Wake, Crysis, Unreal 2007 and games based on the above three titles will make any current hardware cry. We all read the same article saying that crysis was running on a 8800 series card but we also heard that the 2900xt is faster in the game.

Given the current status of the cards being that they are hot, expensive and so far offer very little performance in dx10. No matter how bad the game is coded we should be noticing better numbers then these.

2. Quad core Intel chips are hot, decent price but currently no game use all four cores. When Alan Wake does arrive I could see loads of cheap quad core chips selling. They could be AMD or Intel. I refer to #1 when I state that everything runs hot now and my room feels like a toaster. I will use Intel or AMD based on performance, price and temp. By the time games actually use all cores the current chips will be sub-par.

If your system is running fine why upgrade? Save your $$ and buy something much better a few months down the road. To whomever says why not just upgrade now... well upgrading is a hard thing to do. If you time it right your PC will last years, if you do not then you squander a bunch of money.

 

[MarcVenice]

Will make any current hardware cry ? Bullcrap They are all based on current hardware, some of it will actually use everything current hardware has to offer, but it will just run fine on anything that is medium to high-end right now. That being e6400 or higher, and anything faster then a 1950xt, and even on that card you will get decent performance.

Games don't come out and leave all gamers with their new rigs they bought 3 months ago, frustrated, crying, coz their SUPER EXPENSIVE rig can't play that game. In fact, it would mean only people upgrading right then and there when Crysis and Unreal 2007 come out, could play those games at sufficient settings, meaning the game won't sell for crap. Seriously, you don't even need to buy yourself a clue, just use some plain old LOGIC before you post something.

And if a game plays like crap when it comes out, it's poorly coded and not worth buying in the first place. Also, you don't really seem to get the hardware industry. Do you really think AMD/INTEL and NVIDIA/ATI invest millions of dollars into R&D, launch a product, to outdo themselfs 2 months later, when their 2 months old card has barely if at all made them any profit ? They go in small steps, or there would be nothing to gain for them. Sucks, but that's how it has been, and that's how it always will be.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Zstream
My take on the situation

If you are at a 3800+x2 specs right now then wait till December if you have a C2D now then wait till spring of 08'.

why a 3800+? ... it is slow even for a x1950xt

Let me explain my reasoning:

1. Alan Wake, Crysis, Unreal 2007 and games based on the above three titles will make any current hardware cry. We all read the same article saying that crysis was running on a 8800 series card but we also heard that the 2900xt is faster in the game.

they will make the g90 cry too ... it isn't going to be 2x faster then g80... and sli will make up for that deficit ... i know xfire will, with a cheap 2nd 2900xt

Given the current status of the cards being that they are hot, 'expensive and so far offer very little performance in dx10. No matter how bad the game is coded we should be noticing better numbers then these.

GTS is not hot and there is no guarantee g90 won;t be hotter and require even more power ... depending on what r660 brings in performance ... nvidia will do whatever it takes to stay competitive or ahead. And is is pure speculation about today's DX10 performance idicating anything about full dx10 [/quote]

2. Quad core Intel chips are hot, decent price but currently no game use all four cores. When Alan Wake does arrive I could see loads of cheap quad core chips selling. They could be AMD or Intel. I refer to #1 when I state that everything runs hot now and my room feels like a toaster. I will use Intel or AMD based on performance, price and temp. By the time games actually use all cores the current chips will be sub-par.[/quote]Wrong. Supreme Commander uses all 4 cores ... more to follow shortly ... by q4 '09 over half of PCs will be Q4
-and ... best of all my current MB will allow a drop-in penryn

If your system is running fine why upgrade? Save your $$ and buy something much better a few months down the road. To whomever says why not just upgrade now... well upgrading is a hard thing to do. If you time it right your PC will last years, if you do not then you squander a bunch of money.

of course, if you are *satisfied*, you are not reading this thread

and as usual ... the people with the upgraded systems justify 'why' they upgraded and the people with the older systems are justifying why they don't spend the money. Whatever you do for yourself is OK with me