"The Pitchforks Are Coming For Us Plutocrats" op-ed

[ElFenix]

Long term or short term or both?

I don't like using taxes to right social problems.

the tax structure helped create the social situation we're in. that ship has sailed. why shouldn't it be used to change the social situation we're in?

Which is why the fundamental law of capitalism must be: If workers have more money, businesses have more customers. Which makes middle-class consumers, not rich businesspeople like us, the true job creators. Which means a thriving middle class is the source of American prosperity, not a consequence of it. The middle class creates us rich people, not the other way around.

I'm not done with the article, but this makes a ton of sense.

that's the social contract in a consumer society: the capitalists must employ the consumers who can buy their products. otherwise, there are no capitalists. henry ford knew it and even though he fought the unions tooth and nail he was also the highest paying of the automakers. the capitalists lost sight of that essential truth about 30 years ago and have been relying on increasing consumer debt and the financial industry to prop up themselves up.

 

[glenn1]

the tax structure helped create the social situation we're in. that ship has sailed. why shouldn't it be used to change the social situation we're in?



that's the social contract in a consumer society: the capitalists must employ the consumers who can buy their products. otherwise, there are no capitalists. henry ford knew it and even though he fought the unions tooth and nail he was also the highest paying of the automakers. the capitalists lost sight of that essential truth about 30 years ago and have been relying on increasing consumer debt and the financial industry to prop up themselves up.

There was a little more to the Ford $5/day story than what you're portraying. First of all, Ford was already in Detroit with high cost of living vs. other automakers who were in lower cost areas and couldn't pay the same wages. The wage also came with the company providing a sort of "morality police" over workers and their personal life conduct that would completely not fly in today's world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ford#The_five-dollar_workday

 

[dmcowen674]

Quote: If we don’t do something to fix the glaring inequities in this economy, the pitchforks are going to come for us. No society can sustain this kind of rising inequality. In fact, there is no example in human history where wealth accumulated like this and the pitchforks didn’t eventually come out. You show me a highly unequal society, and I will show you a police state. Or an uprising. There are no counterexamples. None. It’s not if, it’s when.

-------------------------------------

This is already happening, see the SWAT police and militarization of America threads. Corps and wealthy politicians and elected officials are positioning local law enforcement to deal with the "pitchforks" when they come out to protect themselves and their wealthy Corporations.

It will be even bloodier than the civil war because of the high tech weaponry.

Those with the high tech weapons are however out numbered.

The masses will eventually win out.

Just like Gravity always wins, the people will too.

I know many on here will be on the wrong side of the battles.

Viva La Pitchforks

 

[halik]

No, I would just raise the top rates on LTCG. It's currently at 20% for the top bracket and their federal income tax rate is 39.6%. There's a lot of room between the two to increase LTCG without making the two equivalent.

This. The spread of the income gap has nothing to do with minimum wage, that's just a stupid plot by SEIU to try to get more money. The effective tax for the top 400 AGI filers has halved over the last 30 years, chiefly because LTCG.

Also $15/hr is asinine and will kill most low-margin industries. You can't sell fast food $2 burgers if 80% of your cost is wages and benefits.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Very true, minimum wage is a good place to start. Hanauer makes a very salient point that's difficult to refute; the two highest minimum wage cities in the country are Seattle and San Francisco, liberal bastions that also happen to be the fastest growing and booming city economies in the country. It's not just tech startups, those cities are quite diverse (though, granted, it's hard to live there and not bump into people in tech pretty consistently).

Also, Hanauer, the author of the Politico piece, is well known from being featured in Inequality for All, the documentary based around Robert Reich's worldview of wage earners and the economy at large.

I take issue with using San Francisco and Seattle as examples of places where the high minimum wage is helping to grow those economies. The high minimum wage isn't what caused those economies to start booming in the first place; the proliferation of tech jobs and meteoric rise in wealth of the major tech companies brought a huge influx of cash into those areas, which in turn caused local economies to skyrocket, but subsequently drove home prices and rents through the roof. The minimum wage was increased so that workers outside the booming tech industry could still afford to live in a place where median home prices were five times the national average. I'm not opposed to increasing the minimum wage, mind you, but I don't think it's fair to point to San Francisco and Seattle and say, "they increased the minimum wage, and they're doing great!" They increased the minimum wage AFTER their economy was booming, not as a means to jump-start it. It's not like if you increased the minimum wage in Detroit to $20 an hour, it's suddenly going to become the most prosperous city in the country; ultimately, a city is still going to need to have something it can export to generate wealth or it isn't going to grow as the cities benefiting from the tech boom have.

 

[First]

This. The spread of the income gap has nothing to do with minimum wage, that's just a stupid plot by SEIU to try to get more money. The effective tax for the top 400 AGI filers has halved over the last 30 years, chiefly because LTCG.

Also $15/hr is asinine and will kill most low-margin industries. You can't sell fast food $2 burgers if 80% of your cost is wages and benefits.

Few people are talking about $15/hr nationally. $10/hr is more reasonable, especially if indexed to inflation. $15/hr makes sense for certain cities, sure. Higher cost of living tends to be in affluent, urban areas who are the type of people who can afford higher burger prices anyway.

 

[First]

I take issue with using San Francisco and Seattle as examples of places where the high minimum wage is helping to grow those economies. The high minimum wage isn't what caused those economies to start booming in the first place; the proliferation of tech jobs and meteoric rise in wealth of the major tech companies brought a huge influx of cash into those areas, which in turn caused local economies to skyrocket, but subsequently drove home prices and rents through the roof. The minimum wage was increased so that workers outside the booming tech industry could still afford to live in a place where median home prices were five times the national average. I'm not opposed to increasing the minimum wage, mind you, but I don't think it's fair to point to San Francisco and Seattle and say, "they increased the minimum wage, and they're doing great!" They increased the minimum wage AFTER their economy was booming, not as a means to jump-start it. It's not like if you increased the minimum wage in Detroit to $20 an hour, it's suddenly going to become the most prosperous city in the country; ultimately, a city is still going to need to have something it can export to generate wealth or it isn't going to grow as the cities benefiting from the tech boom have.

Absolutely, I know what you're saying, and definitely would never prescribe a minimum wage increase as a way to directly jump-start an economy. But if you follow the logic of those opposed to minimum wage (that forced higher wages inevitably lead to job loss), it's substantively difficult to support said argument knowing that the top 2 examples of minimum wage hikes (Seattle and SF) are absolutely booming. Now, those are different circumstances as you said; expensive, highly affluent areas that can afford higher prices. Of course, ideally, more areas of the country would be like them; affluent. That's why an exorbitantly high minimum wage doesn't make sense at the federal level; $10/hr isn't exorbitant though, and that's the bill before the Senate.

 

[glenn1]

Here's a direct counterpoint to the article in the OP:

"The rich can stop worrying about a middle-class revolution"

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/dail...worried-about-the-middle-class-151842954.html

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Absolutely, I know what you're saying, and definitely would never prescribe a minimum wage increase as a way to directly jump-start an economy. But if you follow the logic of those opposed to minimum wage (that forced higher wages inevitably lead to job loss), it's substantively difficult to support said argument knowing that the top 2 examples of minimum wage hikes (Seattle and SF) are absolutely booming. Now, those are different circumstances as you said; expensive, highly affluent areas that can afford higher prices. Of course, ideally, more areas of the country would be like that. That's why an exorbitantly high minimum wage doesn't make sense at the federal level; $10/hr isn't exorbitant though, and that's the bill before the Senate.

Yes, the argument that increasing the minimum wage will inevitably lead to job loss and collapse an economy is demonstrably false (unless you increase it an unsustainable level, like a million dollars an hour or what have you). But it's going to take more than that to jump-start some of our depressed local economies.

 

[First]

Yes, the argument that increasing the minimum wage will inevitably lead to job loss and collapse an economy is demonstrably false (unless you increase it an unsustainable level, like a million dollars an hour or what have you). But it's going to take more than that to jump-start some of our depressed local economies.

Agreed on all points. There are no silver bullets.

 

[Engineer]

Well, call off the pitchforks...there's going to be no revolution!

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/dail...worried-about-the-middle-class-151842954.html

While they may not be worrying about a revolution, there better be some worry as to who going to keep it all going (economy) in a few decades. The government is running out of bubbles.....

 

[Jaskalas]

Here's a direct counterpoint to the article in the OP:

"The rich can stop worrying about a middle-class revolution"

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/dail...worried-about-the-middle-class-151842954.html

... what was decent about this article? It flat out ignores or denies that anything can come from our disastrous economy, the looting of our wealth from Wall-Street, and the destruction and dependence of the American worker. In fact, it fails to mention any of these things.

Our country is rapidly turning into Mexico where the rich will hide behind communties with walls lest the violent, gang / cartel ridden peasants ambush them.

No amount of taxes will change that. We require fundamental changes in our economy. Trying to help the poor escape a downward spiral of government dependence is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[hal2kilo]

Frankly, I think all income should be taxed at the same rate. I realize they're trying to incentivize investment, but screw it. Treat all income the same.

That's really going to fix the inequallity problem.

Cluless.

 

[Engineer]

No amount of taxes will change that. We require fundamental changes in our economy. Trying to help the poor escape a downward spiral of government dependence is just the tip of the iceberg.

Helping poor escape? Hell, right now, it would be great to stop the addition of former middle class people to the poor / government dependence rolls.

 

[Zebo]

I doubt it they'll prolly just screw the middle class and upper middle class more who have "earned income" and tax the hell outta it. People are too fucking stupid to understand the complex tax structures that lets the real rich like the romneys and buffets pay 15% or less.

Also the rich are smart. They've been importing 2m+ a year to divide people on racial lines, start wars, give enough anti riot payments (welfare) and other things to keep eye off the ball.

In what economics class is it taught that importing 2 million people a year into a high unemployment environment is good policy? None yet they do it. 2 reasons divide and conquer and keep labor prices low.

All I can say is thank god i accidentally stumbled on the mortgage scam they were running to fleece america and got a little piece of the action as a home builder for 10 years and never have to work again. My previous profesional job is prolly in China now and I'd be struggling.

 

[Zebo]

... what was decent about this article? It flat out ignores or denies that anything can come from our disastrous economy, the looting of our wealth from Wall-Street, and the destruction and dependence of the American worker. In fact, it fails to mention any of these things.

Our country is rapidly turning into Mexico where the rich will hide behind communties with walls lest the violent, gang / cartel ridden peasants ambush them.

No amount of taxes will change that. We require fundamental changes in our economy. Trying to help the poor escape a downward spiral of government dependence is just the tip of the iceberg.

We will be just like Mexico. I already see it! Neighborhoods have 12ft walls all around it, gate, Armed security at the entrance gates. High-rises with armed security in lobby and at entrance to gated parking garage. You never saw this when I was growing up.

Mexico is like this everywhere. Safe cities and neighborhoods while 95% of country is in misery and destitution.

I was in Cancun once so nice and safe. Guys patrolling with machine guns in jeeps. So safe mosquitoes prolly couldnt get in. Drive out the check point a little outta town looked like middle ages.

 

[Engineer]

We will be just like Mexico. I already see it! Neighborhoods have 12ft walls all around it, gate, Armed security at the entrance gates. High-rises with armed security in lobby and at entrance to gated parking garage. You never saw this when I was growing up.

Mexico is like this everywhere. Safe cities and neighborhoods while 95% of country is in misery and destitution.

I was in Cancun once so nice and safe. Guys patrolling with machine guns in jeeps. So safe mosquitoes prolly couldnt get in. Drive out the check point a little outta town looked like middle ages.

Does this mean that all of the former US middle class, now poor, will be crossing the border with Canada? :sneaky:

 

[Olikan]

well, US got out of the great depression throught the new deal and the WW2

maybe do it again?

 

[Zebo]

Does this mean that all of the former US middle class, now poor, will be crossing the border with Canada? :sneaky:

Thats happening. A Canadian guy told me "we have our illegals problem too, Americans - god damn hippies who want free healthcare". I think it's too cold for the South Americans.

 

[dmcowen674]

All I can say is thank god i accidentally stumbled on the mortgage scam they were running to fleece america and got a little piece of the action as a home builder for 10 years and never have to work again. My previous profesional job is prolly in China now and I'd be struggling.

Thanks for admitting you are a 1%er.

Are you planning on staying in the States?

 

[Jaskalas]

Here's a direct counterpoint to the article in the OP:

"The rich can stop worrying about a middle-class revolution"

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/dail...worried-about-the-middle-class-151842954.html

I thought of your post when I read this:

Advocates Say City Hunger Problem Is Reaching Crisis Levels

The cost of living is pushing the United States over the edge.

 

[Engineer]

Article stemming from the OP:

http://theweek.com/article/index/264127/america-is-only-half-primed-for-a-violent-revolution

But here is where Hanauer's warning fails: A sour economic situation alone is by no means enough for a revolution. Research suggests that aside from economic inequality, mass institutional corruption is necessary to galvanize the anger necessary for civil unrest.

And on those measures, the data suggests that the U.S. is far less ripe for a revolution than other countries. According to Transparency International's Corruption Perception Index, the U.S. is one of the least corrupt countries in the world, ranking 17th out of 177. That was better than 2012, when the U.S. ranked 19th.

LOL...talk about using the pitchfork to shovel hey full of horse shit. There's a reason that CONgress starts with CON.

Meanwhile, food inflation is currently running at 2.3 percent, close to the historically normal levels of the 1990s and 2000s.

.

There must be some serious deflation on the foods that I don't buy or Kentucky has a serious inflation issue when it comes to food. The grocery store prices have soared this year.

 

[dmcowen674]

Article stemming from the OP:

http://theweek.com/article/index/264127/america-is-only-half-primed-for-a-violent-revolution

The philosopher Aristotle was the first known thinker to argue that inequality can trigger a revolution. That was certainly the case during the French Revolution, when punitive taxes on the lower and middle classes redistributed wealth to France's aristocracy.

And, it's definitely true that the U.S. in the last few years has experienced conditions that have led to severe social and political discontent — a financial crisis, a very deep recession with a slow recovery, mass unemployment, and large numbers of home foreclosures.

Trust in just about every American institution has plummeted.

And most worrisome of all: Economic inequality in America today is worse than it was in 1774, just before the American revolution.

The top 1 percent should watch their backs.

===================================================
LOL...talk about using the pitchfork to shovel hey full of horse shit. There's a reason that CONgress starts with CON.

There must be some serious deflation on the foods that I don't buy or Kentucky has a serious inflation issue when it comes to food. The grocery store prices have soared this year.

Notice the Media is trying to sweep under the rug when 1%ers like Nick Hanauer come out with the truth.

Look at what I bolded from that article.

It's worse than even I thought and I have been closely tracking this American decline since before the formation of this P&N forum.

There will be an event that puts the Country over the top nearly overnight.

One thing for sure

"The top 1 percent should watch their backs".

 

[realibrad]

Notice the Media is trying to sweep under the rug when 1%ers like Nick Hanauer come out with the truth.

Look at what I bolded from that article.

It's worse than even I thought and I have been closely tracking this American decline since before the formation of this P&N forum.

There will be an event that puts the Country over the top nearly overnight.

One thing for sure

"The top 1 percent should watch their backs".

I know dave blocked me, so he wont see this but...

 

[squarecut1]

As long as you have the circus there will be no revolution. They make sure you are entertained, just like the Romans did. Gladiators. NFL.