The philosophy inherent in Fight Club -- what do you think of it?

[AndrewR]

I am not entirely sure why, but the philosophy of the book and the movie (I'm about half way through the DVD right now) makes a great deal of sense to me. I have often wondered about the whole meaningless pursuit of possessions that so many people are "consumed" with. You have to drive the right car (as defined by YOU, that is), own the right clothes, feed your obsession with new technology (see DVD reference above), etc. We work about 1/3 of our lives, sleep about 1/3, and live what small remainder we have in the remaining time not consumed with taking out the garbage, cleaning the dishes or running errands.

Certainly, there is a place for technological advances, in the area of medicine most profoundly (or engineering). However, the walls of society which surround the advance of technology are ridiculously oppressive in many ways, and I find the whole scheme just a tad sickening at times. Do you not ever feel like a drone sometimes? A cog in the wheel?

In some manner, this was also reflected in the movie "They Live" by John Carpenter. We live our little lives, going about our business, while living under deception and manipulation -- quite a nice little hidden meaning in that movie.

I find some comfort at times in religion, but I wonder, like my wife, if the religion is born from a sense of need for a crutch. Or, is there a real force out there which is reflected in the world's religions from the beginning of time? Or, even further, does the collective will of a planet, praying to a variety of deities, create some sort of force? We'll never know, but I find no definites there though others obviously do (I don't need to hear them, thank you -- any in depth religious postings are unwelcome).

Maybe I need to relinquish my belongings, set up a home in a run-down warehouse district and make designer soap out of biological waste from liposuction clinics.

I thought the scene where they (he) were hitting golf balls outside the house was a riot. Looked like fun to me.

 

[Raspewtin]

<< have often wondered about the whole meaningless pursuit of possessions that so many people are &quot;consumed&quot; with. >>



Me too. I read somehwere where they put it quite well. Basically (the book said), we are taught socially that if we string together enough consumable pleasures in a row, we can be happy forever - nice breakfast, lots of work accomplished, good dinner, great movie, nice sex, good sleep, refreshing morning, etc. Of course, this creates the necessity of always looking for the next fix. I found a certain religious soln. that works for me. I'm sure there are non-religious solns. as well.



<< f the religion is born from a sense of need for a crutch >>



I think most religion was created to give power and control to certain individuals, capitalizing on this need you were talking about.

 

[DefRef]

This is too heavy a topic for MONDAY!:frown:

 

[vi edit]

lookie here ...lots of philosophical thoughts on the philosophical thought of fight club

 

[AndrewR]

Interesting thread -- guess I missed it. It seems to have died prematurely, however.

I started a thread like this (unrelated to Fight Club) awhile ago and received some intriguing responses until it dove into a Christian discussion, which doesn't appeal to me (hence, my request for a restriction of such here).

I don't subscribe to the existential position nor the nihilist view of life. I think there is meaning to life, but I am fairly positive it is not focused on the meaningless rat race that describes life for so many people. Even look at the topics people focus on in Off Topic right here! That's not to minimalize the people involved, only that it serves to describe the problem.

Do we really want to lift the blinders though?

 

[vi edit]

Many people wouldn't be able to handle it. Too many are caught up in the image that is painted on them by glitzy jewelry and $50 designer jeans.

To say that your worth is proven by your actions, instead of your possestions would be too hard of a slap in the face for them. Telling many of these consumer lemmings that their material worth is, well worthless would put them into shock.

Some may want it, few could handle it.

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

I am Jacks inner rage.

 

[vi edit]

Andrew look at IAMDavids thread about bill gates. Check out the rubish that MoralPanick spews forth. The fact that he states the &quot;better man&quot; is the one with the most money to give is evidence to my statement.

The fact that someone can give more, because they have more to give, does not make them a better person than someone who gives because they want to, not because they necessarily can.

It just goes back to money. If the economy was to crash, what good is 22 billion dollars in paper? It certainly is not better than someone like mother theresa who spent her whole life helping people.

It's actions...not possessions.

 

[novon]

I have the feeling too...possesions are a designer drug...and most people don't even know they are taking it. I have always felt this need to improve my inner self - my speech/thought/actions instead of being sucked into the external improvment, but it's really really hard in this society, here is what I wrote in the other thread...

1. On the one extreme we have those who live the absolute &quot;material life&quot; &quot;If I only had this I would surely be happy.&quot; They are in a vicsious cycle, from one purchase to the other, always convinced that there is happiness at the end of the road. They sacrafice meaning in their life, fullfilment, they alway feel empty deep down.

2. In the middle we have the average &quot;good guy&quot; worker, he works hard, plays hard for temporary happiness, and also critisizes the worlds problems seeking for a answer. He does a little bit of both sides (spritiuality and materialism) in order to cover his bases. He swings from one side to the other his whole life always looking for something.

3. On the other extreme we have those who become &quot;too spiritual.&quot; Believe it or not this is also as bad as materialism. In the U.S. we feel disconnected from humanity with materialism...but in countries where materialism is non-exsistant for most, people are in touch with the emotions of love and unity, people become obsessed with the troubles of the world...and since there are so many...this leads to a life of depression, and &quot;life is meaningless.&quot;

Now notice all the above paths lead to &quot;life is meaningless&quot;

4. The often talked about yet not walked path, one which I have yet to experience, seems to be of the person who experience permanent &quot;inner peace&quot; Release from the two sides, the enlightened ones, on a different perspective towards the world, the ones who change to world for ever. Now they say numerous people have reached this stage, they say it deffinetly exsists, yet I am not convinced, but I am very attracted to the possibility. I sometimes feel like a &quot;puzzy&quot; for not taking this path in life now, for staying satisfied with the temp. happiness. But it seems that this is the hardest path to take, it takes faith in love...

Anyone have experiences with the fourth path?

Good luck in your journey

 

[lupin]

Fight club's philosophy may look good... but as far as the real world is.. Totally B.S!

I love nice cars. I love the feeling of achievement that I get after years of work to buy my first Ferrari (not yet ). The world is made that way. I want nice peripherals for my computers, I want a nice house, even nice FURNITURE.

Imagine how boring the world would be if everybody follows Tyler Durden's philosophy ? Everyone would be like the squad (or whatever it's called) he recruited. Talk about mission B.S.


And some people also mentioned that religion is nothing but man's need for something to worship, to hold on to. It's true, BUT that's not the whole picture. (keep in mind, that by this philoshophy, man is the FOCUS. not GOD)
The truth is: GOD is the creator of all, and when he created humans, he made us with a sense to go back an seek for our creator. Here, GOD is the FOCUS, not man. But let's not talk about religion and stick to fight club.

 

[zogar]

I moved to a third world country and lived in total poverty (no electricity, running water, drinkable water, etc..) for a year for just this reason. I would not trade that experience for anything.

 

[novon]

that's interesting that you moved to a different country for this reason...what was you conclusion after the trip? Please explain your experience...

thanks

 

[sandorski]

In Fight Club, only Tyler is truly &quot;free&quot; or has truly benefited. All the other members are just as much cogs within the club, as they were before being &quot;enlightened&quot;. I haven't read the book, but the movie was poorly done. I saw what was happening a long time before the movie decided to let me in on the secret.

 

[Cybordolphin]

Zogar...

It's interesting isn't it..? That there is happiness all around us. Even when there is seemingly nothing. The people are somehow more real.
One thing I noticed... is that the people have much more character.
Even in a place of complete uncertainty ..... there is security and even calm.

It is refreshing to experience it. Suddenly you have NO expectations put on you (not the same), as you had. The fight for wealth and
&quot;things&quot;.... becomes much further down the ladder. The things that we take for granted..... become most important in living day to day.

Weird thing is..... that I am not pressing myself to return to it (the simplicity/simple happiness). I guess that is the &quot;drug&quot; we speak of. It almost controls us. We live in unhappiness sometimes and won't even make a change.... knowing that there is a happier, simpler way.

I meet people all day long..... few will I remember like those from the
&quot;simple lands&quot;..... those poor, poverty stricken, uneducated, simple,
happy, hopeful, loving, caring, real people.

Now..... I have to run off to Staples to pick up one of those thumb scanners for my new super fast computer I just built!

 

[zogar]

I was so tired of people in this country not realizing how good they have it. I was caught up in this need for more education to make more money to be happier; in exchange for no sleep and constant worrying over my plans for breakfast the next day. I was tired of trying to have a better car and better clothes just to impress people that I really didnt like in the first place. the only reason for impressing them was to get in to an even higher circle of people that put even more pressure on these things, in hope of getting a better job, deal, etc.. that would satisfy this growing snowball that only leads to the need for a bigger, faster moving snowball. So one day I met a man from nigeria who was trying to raise money for a school that he runs (no public schools there, they are all private owned and expensive). He was providing a school for adults who wanted to continue thier education. I decided to go help him, so that I could be around people that were thankful for an education, a job, food, and nothing more. I acted as a guidance counselor for the school. I did this as a volunteer. I paid my own way and used my own money for food. Its really amazing.... time doesnt mean anything to them. if a class lasts 4 hours long, if it last 15 min long... it doesnt bother them. the are the most patient, friendly, carefree people I have ever seen. one of their popular sayings is &quot;no wahala&quot; which means no problem. If they have to stand in line for hours... they look at it as a chance to bask in the sun. If there is no food to eat... they shrug and say maybe later. I took on this philosophy that they have... and I have never been happier. I now have a job that doesnt pay very much, but I love doing it. I sleep good at night, at least 8 hrs. I dont have many friends, but the ones I have are real friends. Most importantly, I'm happy, and satisfied. Some people take the &quot;american dream&quot; thing a little too far. Be happy with what you have..., or as one wiseman once said, &quot;be content in all things&quot; . Its far less stressful, like a neverending pink floyd song.

 

[zogar]

I never read the book... I saw the movie about 3 months ago and really enjoyed it .

 

[lupin]

never read the book either. I don't read novels.

But the movie was kickass.

 

[AndrewR]

NovoN: I saw your post, and I definitely recognize the first three though the third is foreign to me. The fourth puzzles me, but I suppose I understand the archetype in the abstract. I see perhaps a danger in the fourth becoming the third. Interesting though.



<< Imagine how boring the world would be if everybody follows Tyler Durden's philosophy ? Everyone would be like the squad (or whatever it's called) he recruited. >>


lupin: In your denunciation, you but prove the point. &quot;Years of achievement&quot; for a piece of metal, wood, and plastic? You toil endlessly for something that will last for several years, while you have wasted the BEST of your physical years working to achieve? That doesn't strike you as pointless?

The point is not to become one of the Space Monkeys but rather to live your life as you will it, not as someone else tells you. By rebelling and joining Tyler's movement, the Space Monkeys were only trading one master for another and proved that with their brainwashed actions. It's a fascinating conundrum -- rebel to conform.

I've always been intrigued by the idea of an &quot;anarchist movement&quot; and more particularly with the &quot;leaders of the anarchist movement&quot;. Rich irony there.



<< It's actions...not possessions. >>


Are you Catholic by any chance? Just curious.

For those who have seen the movie, READ THE BOOK. I was much more affected by the book, and I know the end of the book is superior to the movie, though I don't recall how. I remembered that when I heard what the end of the movie was (a friend told me), I was disappointed that they emasculated the message to a degree. I need to find my book and reread the last chapter.

How about this: Someone mentioned that with the advent of the modern age, we were suddenly freed from mundane tasks which kept us working 24/7 and were able to contemplate the state of our being, giving rise to feelings of despair and an aimless search for meaning. However, what if it is more that now that we have given the task of survival to others (food, shelter, etc.), the VAST majority of us work in jobs with no bearing on life and death. We push paper, fix machines, answer phones, generate work for others and ultimately consume the products produced by others doing the same thing. Since we are not involved with harvesting crops, hunting animals, building our shelters, migrating to more hospitable areas, we are left without meaningful purpose.

A hunter who kills an animal to feed his family has accomplished something concrete with obvious purpose. Ditto for the farmer who brings in the corn. How does completing a great stock purchase translate into survival? Indirectly it does, yes, but that leap is a difficult one when you consider that your action exists in a complex web which supports billions like it -- all tangled together in their meaninglessness.

Worker A produces wood. Worker B produces a widget with that wood. Worker C markets and sells the widget. Worker A buys the widget with the money he earned producing the wood. The widget has no intrinsic value, really (say it's a chair), but the production and consumption of it has employed three people (and more). Millions upon millions of these chains exist in our economy.

Do you enjoy being a cog?

 

[novon]

AndrewR

good references to economics....that's exactly what I realized when I was in econ...we are productive yes, but does it improve us as humans? I would say more people are less human even though we live so comfortably now. What really gets me is I realize all this, that the life I am working towards now will probably feel empty once I have it, but I am too afraid to leave it. I really takes a leap of faith or an inspiring leader or something. Or maybe all the frustration will build up and cause a social movement like those of the 60s. This is kinda reminding me of the feminist movement...it strated with a lot of discontent house wives talking and lead to social change. Maybe it's the next social frontier? Lets face it, we have only recently (relativly) become so consumed in consumerism, so it just might take a little longer for everyone to find that it's not all that it was promised and to seek spirituality again. Afterall, historically we have gone on spiritual roller-coasters. So if we step back and look at the big picture, we, the gen X and above who are discontent may be the start of a new movement

 

[AndrewR]

<< I really takes a leap of faith or an inspiring leader or something. >>


But then there's the Tyler Durden aspect of it again -- a leader? Again we relinquish one master for another. The unfortunate realization is summed up by the &quot;leap of faith&quot; part, but to me, it must be an individual one. I don't know where it leads or how one gets there.

Millions of people have lived and died while accomplishing nothing aside from raising children. The success for such a person lies in a child who does something rather than adding another cog to history. That happens rarely though. So, most people are left with nothing but a happy home life (and not even that often enough) and consumerism.

Can actions and purchases be enjoyed for their own sake? -- watching a movie for instance. The sad fact is that it's enjoyable because it's an escape from reality -- a reality which is meaningless to begin with so the inherent &quot;artistic&quot; worth becomes a reflection of the emptiness elsewhere. It's akin to being beaten constantly with a stick then only beaten with fists -- at least it's not a stick, and that becomes relief.

Developing another aspect right now. Will post later.

 

[XMan]

LOL . . . as you guys wax philosophic I wonder what the fact that Tyler Durden was actually a figment of the protagonist's imagination means . . .