The people of America just helped Disney set a record for its live action movie adaptations

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Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
30,037
7,209
136
There is, or at should be, a difference between cultural appropriation and culture integration. Cultural integration is when you add parts of a culture with respect to that cultures values and beliefs. Cultural appropriation is when you take something from a culture and either use it to ridicule that culture, or use it in a way disrespectful of that cultures beliefs and values.

I think a lot of people, even liberals, have confused the two.
100% this.
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,946
1,077
126
Or as has been stated many times. Intent means everything. The problem is, intent is lost in a clip someone took to call it out to be offended about it. The idea that someone shouldn't do/wear/say things other cultures have done is overblown and basically seems to be used as a form of reparations these days.
 
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Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
12,527
7,624
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There is, or at should be, a difference between cultural appropriation and culture integration. Cultural integration is when you add parts of a culture with respect to that cultures values and beliefs. Cultural appropriation is when you take something from a culture and either use it to ridicule that culture, or use it in a way disrespectful of that cultures beliefs and values.

I think a lot of people, even liberals, have confused the two.
So can my white daughter dress as an Encanto character or not?

Can I eat Chinese food? If you believe Twitter I can eat Chinese food, but can't wear a Chinese dress, however they can do either.

And I can tomahawk chop at a FSU game, but not a chef's game.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
13,802
3,815
136
So can my white daughter dress as an Encanto character or not?
Yes, because she most likely loves the character that is a positive representation of that culture. As long as she is not wanting to be that character sarcastically, or to make a mockery of the culture it is fine. It celebrates the culture instead of insulting it.

Can I eat Chinese food? If you believe Twitter I can eat Chinese food, but can't wear a Chinese dress, however they can do either.
This one is a bit more complex. You can most definitely eat Chinese food, but most of what you get at your local takeout is not actually Chinese and that is a bit problematic. This is an example of cultural misappropriation. We are taking something decidedly western and calling it Chinese.

The 'Chinese dress' is problematic because it more often than not represents a fetishization of Chinese women, this can be seen by how often the dress is cut specifically to be sexualized. The real dress should be floor length with slits on the sides to allow leg movement. Overall it is probably best to avoid all cultural outfits if you are not representing that culture. It you are not Scottish don't wear a kilt.

And I can tomahawk chop at a FSU game, but not a chef's game.
You should not be doing the tomahawk chop at all. It is straight up insulting.
 
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[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
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Some of it is just straight of nostalgia and people in hollywood flat out stomping on things people love for the sake of change so they can add their own spin for no particular reason than catering to whatever the current culture trend is. I don't think many of us are immune to it in things we grew up loving no matter how 'woke' we may be.
Ah yes, I too remember high school locker rooms, where all the burly guys that would later grow up to become maga-hat wearing fucktards were talking about how much they loved the little mermaid. I'm sure it's just nostalgia.
 
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ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
36,034
15,655
146
Ah yes, I too remember high school locker rooms, where all the burly guys that would later grow up to become maga-hat wearing fucktards were talking about how much they loved the little mermaid. I'm sure it's just nostalgia.
im struggling to think of anything I cared about as a young person that makes a single difference to me now.

Ariel was my first crush, I was like 8.

I seriously can’t fathom why people care, at all, about a remake.
 
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Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
12,527
7,624
136
Yes, because she most likely loves the character that is a positive representation of that culture. As long as she is not wanting to be that character sarcastically, or to make a mockery of the culture it is fine. It celebrates the culture instead of insulting it.

This one is a bit more complex. You can most eat Chinese food, but most of what you get at your local takeout is not actually Chinese and that is a bit problematic. This is an example of cultural misappropriation. We are taking something decidedly western and calling it Chinese.

The 'Chinese dress' is problematic because it more often than not represents a fetishization of Chinese women, this can be seen by how often the dress is cut specifically to be sexualized. The real dress should be floor length with slits on the sides to allow leg movement. Overall it is probably best to avoid all cultural outfits if you are not representing that culture. It you are not Scottish don't wear a kilt.
So it's wrong for white people to support Chinese-american owned businesses by buying food/clothing designed and created by first generation Chinese-americans. Meanwhile "American" food is sold all over the world. American clothing and copies of American clothing is also sold all over the world. How about knock off America TV and movies? It's it okay for the Chinese to be appropriating our culture?

Cultures blend and change, Italy has taken back Americanized "Italian" food, so has Korea and China. Mexico has stolen Texan food. Barbecue is sold all over the world (mostly in shitty forms), stolen from the slaves of America. If you are doing it to be insulting are stereotyping, yeah that's an issue, if you like food the first generation immigrant is selling, good.

Everywhere I go I see people ripping off American culture, which is great, but then Americans are told we better not enjoy anyone else culture. Screw all the first generation immigrants cultural appropriation supports.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
11,408
8,783
146
im struggling to think of anything I cared about as a young person that makes a single difference to me now.

Ariel was my first crush, I was like 8.

I seriously can’t fathom why people care, at all, about a remake.
They don't care about the remake itself. They're fucking racist and getting upset because a black person is playing a role that at one point was played by a white person. Nevermind the fact it's a fucking half-fish, it was a white fish. They take the act of changing the character's skin color as a personal offense to them because they're fucking racist.
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,946
1,077
126
Ah yes, I too remember high school locker rooms, where all the burly guys that would later grow up to become maga-hat wearing fucktards were talking about how much they loved the little mermaid. I'm sure it's just nostalgia.
Actually, you are thinking about this in only the context of the narrative and not the whole story. There are plenty of people who are 'fans' who do care and are very vocal, but my comment was in a broader statement regarding backlash around hollywood decisions. This isn't new. It's been going on for decades. To the point of the topic though, yes, plenty of racists/etc get in on the complaining these days.

If you think this is only about The LIttle Mermaid though, you are mistaken. I even gave a very valid example that has nothing to do with racism. The reality is it doesn't matter what they did, if it wasn't exactly as they remembered, or even just the wrong actress (in their mind), there would be backlash.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
36,034
15,655
146
They don't care about the remake itself. They're fucking racist and getting upset because a black person is playing a role that at one point was played by a white person. Nevermind the fact it's a fucking half-fish, it was a white fish. They take the act of changing the character's skin color as a personal offense to them because they're fucking racist.
the only logical conclusion.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
11,408
8,783
146
Actually, you are thinking about this in only the context of the narrative and not the whole story. There are plenty of people who are 'fans' who do care and are very vocal, but my comment was in a broader statement regarding backlash around hollywood decisions. This isn't new. It's been going on for decades. To the point of the topic though, yes, plenty of racists/etc get in on the complaining these days.

If you think this is only about The LIttle Mermaid, you are mistaken.
If they were 'fans' they would be up in arms about the fact that Disney keeps casting faces for their musical remakes rather than voices. Today's Disney would never cast 90's Lea Salonga, despite being one of the greatest singers of all time.

Emma Watson. Give me a fucking break.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
65,424
20,514
136
I just watched the trailer. Ariel is pretty so no issue there. I do object to the wimpy tail fins though. Mermaids should be strong swimmers and Disney went with a frilly, sun dress tail that couldn't possibly propel Ariel at the speed necessary to evade predators. I suppose I should be content that Disney didn't CGI her eyes to meet Disney's creepy princess standards.

1663685113977.png
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,946
1,077
126
I want to know what the backlash would have been if they cast Sam Jackson as Ariel.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
12,527
7,624
136
I just watched the trailer. Ariel is pretty so no issue there. I do object to the wimpy tail fins though. Mermaids should be strong swimmers and Disney went with a frilly, sun dress tail that couldn't possibly propel Ariel at the speed necessary to evade predators. I suppose I should be content that Disney didn't CGI her eyes to meet Disney's creepy princess standards.

View attachment 67811
According to Disney nobody tries to eat you "Under The Sea."
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
13,802
3,815
136
So it's wrong for white people to support Chinese-american owned businesses by buying food/clothing designed and created by first generation Chinese-americans. Meanwhile "American" food is sold all over the world. American clothing and copies of American clothing is also sold all over the world. How about knock off America TV and movies? It's it okay for the Chinese to be appropriating our culture?
Other people being assholes does not give you permission to be an asshole.


If you are doing it to be insulting are stereotyping, yeah that's an issue, if you like food the first generation immigrant is selling, good.
This is pretty much the point of what I said. I just said that maybe you need to also consider the implications of it as well. Basically, be considerate.
Sure, if you like chopped suey, eat it! No one is going to really care. All we are asking is that you be aware that it is not a good representation of Chinese culture or food.

The whole point of pointing out cultural appropriation is to try to get people to examine their biases and be a better person. It is not perfect, and no one is encoding it into law. It is a whole social movement to try to get people to be just a bit better to each other. Somehow a bunch of people have decided this means that they are being repressed.

Everywhere I go I see people ripping off American culture, which is great, but then Americans are told we better not enjoy anyone else culture. Screw all the first generation immigrants cultural appropriation supports.
Nice stawman you built there. Did you enjoy beating on it?
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
12,527
7,624
136
Other people being assholes does not give you permission to be an asshole.
So people in other countries eating hamburgers and hot dogs is them being an asshole? Seriously?

Nice stawman you built there. Did you enjoy beating on it?
This is from you right?
The 'Chinese dress' is problematic because it more often than not represents a fetishization of Chinese women, this can be seen by how often the dress is cut specifically to be sexualized. The real dress should be floor length with slits on the sides to allow leg movement. Overall it is probably best to avoid all cultural outfits if you are not representing that culture. It you are not Scottish don't wear a kilt.
Last time I was in Asia I saw a whole shit ton of Americanized clothing. But you just said, an American shouldn't wear clothing from any other culture. So why is it the rest of the world can wear our clothing and use our culture but we can't wear their clothing?

You started off basically saying cultural appropriation is okay, as long as you aren't being an asshole about it, but then you grew the definition of being an asshole to very large proportions.

Dressing up in war paint and a head dress and being very stereotypical caricature is being an asshole. Going to a Tribe hosted Pow-Wow and buying some tribe made clothing is not.
 
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nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
55,172
7,956
126
This one is a bit more complex. You can most definitely eat Chinese food, but most of what you get at your local takeout is not actually Chinese and that is a bit problematic. This is an example of cultural misappropriation. We are taking something decidedly western and calling it Chinese.
To my knowledge, Americanized Chinese food was primarily created by non-Americans, mostly Chinese, to appeal to American tastes? And is labeled by them as Chinese food?
The 'Chinese dress' is problematic because it more often than not represents a fetishization of Chinese women, this can be seen by how often the dress is cut specifically to be sexualized. The real dress should be floor length with slits on the sides to allow leg movement. Overall it is probably best to avoid all cultural outfits if you are not representing that culture. It you are not Scottish don't wear a kilt.
The Irish also have a history of kilt wearing, and also LOL. I think maybe "don't wear a clan tartan unless you're of that clan" is a more accurate directive. I wear kilts a lot, and I'm not Scottish, but none of them have a tartan either.
 
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quikah

Diamond Member
Apr 7, 2003
3,805
488
126
This one is a bit more complex. You can most definitely eat Chinese food, but most of what you get at your local takeout is not actually Chinese and that is a bit problematic. This is an example of cultural misappropriation. We are taking something decidedly western and calling it Chinese.
American Chinese food was developed by Chinese immigrants to better fit local tastes and available ingredients at the time. Panda Express was founded by 1st generation Chinese / Burmese immigrants. Calling this cultural appropriation is bizzarre.

The 'Chinese dress' is problematic because it more often than not represents a fetishization of Chinese women, this can be seen by how often the dress is cut specifically to be sexualized. The real dress should be floor length with slits on the sides to allow leg movement. Overall it is probably best to avoid all cultural outfits if you are not representing that culture. It you are not Scottish don't wear a kilt.
Chongsam / Qi pao as currently styled was developed in 1920s Shanghai under influence from western fashion (as all fashion takes influence from many cultures in cosmopolitan areas). Hanfu is the more traditional Chinese clothing which still has a more traditional style. Chinese don't really give a shit if you wear chongsam, they enjoy seeing pretty women wear it regardless of race. Only some 2nd/3rd gen Chinese-Americans get offended. Same goes for Kimono, though I don't think Japanese-Americans are as sensitive about it (could be wrong there).
 
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Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
12,527
7,624
136
American Chinese food was developed by Chinese immigrants to better fit local tastes and available ingredients at the time. Panda Express was founded by 1st generation Chinese / Burmese immigrants. Calling this cultural appropriation is bizzarre.
And those Chinese immigrants used their restaurants to get around very racist immigration laws and have grown it to massive scale helping countless first generation immigrates. There are more take out 'Chinese' restaurants in the US than all McD, Subways, and Burger Kings put together.

The fortune cookie was also invented in the US, by Chinese immigrants.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
13,802
3,815
136
So people in other countries eating hamburgers and hot dogs is them being an asshole? Seriously?
Really like those strawmen don't you? Have fun beating on them.
I wonder where in America hamburgers were invented?

Last time I was in Asia I saw a whole shit ton of Americanized clothing.
Americanized clothing is not American traditional clothing. America does not have much in the way of traditional clothing because it is not really old enough to have a historical culture. If you see people in Hong Kong walking around in Lederhosen or Dirndl Dresses feel free to call them assholes.

Dressing up in war paint and a head dress and being very stereotypical caricature is being an asshole. Going to a Tribe hosted Pow-Wow and buying some tribe made clothing is not.
This is pretty much what I was saying. The Chinese dress is problematic when it is being used as basically fetish gear. As would be wearing a Tallit as a wrap top bikini.
The problem with traditional clothing is it is really hard to separate the clothing from what they represent to the culture. Because it is so hard to do it without the appearance of appropriation it is best to just avoid it altogether, not that it can't be done, just that it is hard to get right.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
16,209
14,156
136
Some progressives, and it's a small minority, but super vocal is the problem, are way over the top with cultural appropriation where they just take anybody doing anything with another culture's stuff as negative. Even just someone doing a good tasting riff or fusion dish inspired by another cuisine. With no malice, just wanting to sell food. Absolutely nothing about it mocking the other cultulre.

I find absolutely nothing offending if you treat a food with respect and just try to turn it into your own, fuse it into another dish, or to even just try to replicate it. In fact I did that myself.
 
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SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
13,802
3,815
136
The Irish also have a history of kilt wearing, and also LOL. I think maybe "don't wear a clan tartan unless you're of that clan" is a more accurate directive. I wear kilts a lot, and I'm not Scottish, but none of them have a tartan either.
Yeah, that is really what I meant, I was being a bit too simplistic there. I kind of enjoy utilikilts as well.

Calling this cultural appropriation is bizzarre.
Read what I wrote again very carefully. I did not call it cultural appropriation, I called it misappropriation. I stretched that word a little bit for a little word play. It is 'misappropriated' in that it is seen by many Americans as Chinese food, as in the food one would eat if in China, when it is really food made by Asians for American palettes. What I wrote about it was only that it should be remembered that it is not actually a fair representation of Chinese cuisine. Do that and there is no problems with it.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
12,527
7,624
136
Really like those strawmen don't you? Have fun beating on them.
I wonder where in America hamburgers were invented?


Americanized clothing is not American traditional clothing. America does not have much in the way of traditional clothing because it is not really old enough to have a historical culture. If you see people in Hong Kong walking around in Lederhosen or Dirndl Dresses feel free to call them assholes.



This is pretty much what I was saying. The Chinese dress is problematic when it is being used as basically fetish gear. As would be wearing a Tallit as a wrap top bikini.
The problem with traditional clothing is it is really hard to separate the clothing from what they represent to the culture. Because it is so hard to do it without the appearance of appropriation it is best to just avoid it altogether, not that it can't be done, just that it is hard to get right.
"The exact origin of the hamburger may never be known with any certainty. Most historians believe that it was invented by a cook who placed a Hamburg steak between two slices of bread in a small town in Texas, and others credit the founder of White Castle for developing the "Hamburger Sandwich." Records from that time are scarce, however.[1]" -wiki

This is how every debate on this subject goes. Basically "America has no real culture, therefore it can't be appropriated." But clothing invented in the 1920s in China is off limits.

America has deep and far reaching culture that seems less so because it's literally been exported all over the world. Several cultures have reapporiated food and celebrations we've invented and taken them as their own. Japan celebrates American Christmas with a KFC dinner (because they were taught that's what Americans did).
 
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quikah

Diamond Member
Apr 7, 2003
3,805
488
126
Read what I wrote again very carefully. I did not call it cultural appropriation, I called it misappropriation. I stretched that word a little bit for a little word play. It is 'misappropriated' in that it is seen by many Americans as Chinese food, as in the food one would eat if in China, when it is really food made by Asians for American palettes. What I wrote about it was only that it should be remembered that it is not actually a fair representation of Chinese cuisine. Do that and there is no problems with it.
WTF do you think misappropriation means? "The term “misappropriation” refers to the stealing of something, usually money, that was not meant for the thief, but which he used for his own personal gain."

Not calling Chinese-American food Chinese is kind of insulting to the Chinese people that developed it IMO. Chinese food is ridiculously complex and varied. Most "real" Chinese places in the US are anything but, they are a mismash of MANY styles stuffed into one menu. Hardly find things like that in China.
 
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