monovillage
Diamond Member
- Jul 3, 2008
- 8,444
- 1
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Doc Savage Fan
Lifer
- Nov 30, 2006
- 15,456
- 389
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Fess up...tell us how old you are. I've got $5 that says you weren't even a gleam in your father's eye during the 60s. Bet?
Last edited:
airdata
Diamond Member
- Jul 11, 2010
- 4,987
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- 0
OWS is similar to the 60's protesting in the sense that history will look back on them and show they were right.
We went into the vietnam war through documented trickery, just like Iraq. So, all of the people protesting against the war then were right. I'm sure just like now, back then there were plenty of people saying look at those dirty hippies!! and refusing to acknowledge the things they were protesting.
And yet today, a simple google search will bring up countless results showing you that the gulf of tonkin was a staged event and that nothing actually happened. This along the lines of operation northwoods which would have us attack guantanemo bay and tell the public that it was Cuba so that the public would support war.
When you look at events like that in history, it's easy to see how they have repeated the tactics again w\ countless other conflicts. It really makes you question the legitimacy of any conflict we get into.
In 30-40 years, people will look back on OWS and know they were protesting against a known evil and that they were being beat down by a corporate owned government who wants no more than an ignorant populace.
We went into the vietnam war through documented trickery, just like Iraq. So, all of the people protesting against the war then were right. I'm sure just like now, back then there were plenty of people saying look at those dirty hippies!! and refusing to acknowledge the things they were protesting.
And yet today, a simple google search will bring up countless results showing you that the gulf of tonkin was a staged event and that nothing actually happened. This along the lines of operation northwoods which would have us attack guantanemo bay and tell the public that it was Cuba so that the public would support war.
When you look at events like that in history, it's easy to see how they have repeated the tactics again w\ countless other conflicts. It really makes you question the legitimacy of any conflict we get into.
In 30-40 years, people will look back on OWS and know they were protesting against a known evil and that they were being beat down by a corporate owned government who wants no more than an ignorant populace.
Something I haven't looked into and am curious about.
Who know what and when about the falsehoods in the Golf of Tonkin?
I've listened to once-secret phone calls between LBJ and others on the war, I've listened to the once-secret radio communication between senior and local military about one of the incidents, as the more senior official pressed for information and decided what the President would be told.
LBJ seems to have pretty clearly viewed it as his choice whether to 'give the generals and many in Congress what they want, a war' - implying that the justification of the Gulf of Tonkin was not that important, just a device used to get the authorization for war. But the authorization was passed based on the alleged incidents.
So who knew the incidents were largely false? Did LBJ, or did he think they were real and just decide to use them for the declaration? Did the military, and who?
As I understand it, the whole situations were pretty inaccurately described - that we had these destroyers escorting US-trained South Vietnamese commando terrorists into North Vietnamese waters to drop them at the coast to assassinate people, including civilians, and bomb infrastructure. That the the first attack was real, but the North Vietnamese attacking the invader in their waters; the second didn't happen at all.
If anyone has info on 'who know what was false when', to save looking into it, post.
The central complaint of 1960's counterculture was the Vietnam War. So tell me, what has been the general hindsight consensus about that war? Are conservatives any longer even defending it? Who still actually thinks we should ever have been at war in Vietnam? I'd say the counterculture movement was ahead of its time in many ways.
If it had not been for the draft, protests against the war would have been far smaller and far fewer. And yeah, I was in the military during the 60s, but I enlisted.
I believed the government about the "Gulf of Tonkin incident, subscribed to the "Domino Theory", and generally didn't believe the war was without merit. My old man fought for the country and didn't see why I shouldn't.
The years since then have changed my perspective.
But I digress. Most of the force behind the protests was about not wanting to be drafted.
I believed the government about the "Gulf of Tonkin incident, subscribed to the "Domino Theory", and generally didn't believe the war was without merit. My old man fought for the country and didn't see why I shouldn't.
The years since then have changed my perspective.
But I digress. Most of the force behind the protests was about not wanting to be drafted.
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
- 3
- 0
The right wing republicans have always been good at organizing, they have to be, they are a minority political party. And once right wing republicans can get enough conservative democrats to go along, they can set the political agenda and tilt the playing field towards concentrated wealth in only the few.
Conversely the left and the union movement have come and now have gone due to complacency and lack of continued commitment. But still, lesson taken, first there must be a real crisis for the left to really start to organize, but when it does, and has a some national unity, its usually unstoppable.
And having said that, I can start to discuss the Vietnam era protests at a time when American was peak prosperity. And woe be to the politician running for office without organized labor backing. As the USA emerged from WW2 far ahead, economically and militarily. With a self confident domestic and foreign policy consensus designed to keep America in first place. Or so we thought.
The first cracks to that solid glass foundation emerged during the 1950's, first a giant nuclear arms race with the Soviet Union, then a Korean war that the failed to win and instead got a stalemate, followed by the shock in sputnik, as the USA woke up one morning and found the USSR was way ahead in the space race. As the USA did the thing it knew best, throw money at the problem and do it inefficiently. Meanwhile, as education became a commodity, a nascent civil rights movement gained critical mass. As America once again saw its itself violently just starting to clash in the streets.
As America's first wave baby boom generation came of draft age just in time for the Vietnam war. The US involvement in Vietnam may have started out small, but after the mid-60's, American boys were coming home in body bags at a rate of 300 a week for months at a time at the times of peak activity. . No one cared that we were killing innocent Vietnamese at 30x the rate, but the civil rights movement and the antiwar movement somewhat combined.
Sadly, in my opinion, it ended up breaking the solidarity of the majority American left.
As the Union movement had achieved prosperity for its members, as they swiftly forgot the fact that the prior two or three generations of their families had to take to the streets and ballot boxes to win their rights. And they initially were not happy or inclined to join a youth based movement opposing the Vietnam war or civil rights for blacks. As for the draft, they had fought in died in WW2 in our nation's hour of need. And felt little sympathy with that did not do the same. As for their own son's, they made sure they were in college or had a military job deferment.
After that, the death of the democratic left was a matter of time and appeasement. First Nixon ended the draft and all the stream went out of the movement, enough of the formerly solid democratic labor votes tilted to the GOP, the civil rights movement won its small victories in law, as this nation found new and different ways to discriminate. And finally basically ended as the nation would not accept busing to achieve racial integration.
So the question is how should we historically view the OWS movement and I feel its hard to predict. One one hand its new birth for left leaning American movement, at exactly a time when government needs do so much in terms of leveling the playing field
so badly tilted against most of the American's people self interests. As the American economy shrinks, formerly well paying middle class jobs derived from value added manufacturing vanish, and outsourced off overseas. As America is racing towards a Haitian style economy. Plenty of goods in the store at low prices, but too few American consumers can buy them. On the other hand are the American people angry enough and united enough to toss the rascals out yet?
My guess may be not quite yet, so OWS may be a fizzle, but rest assured, the American people will have to take matters into their own hands soon. But soon in the eyes of history may be 20 years, the pendulum of change always largely lags the need.
And the last thing to say may be, a stable government can last for a thousand years as long as it keep pace and changes with changing internal and external realities, but as soon as a government becomes fossilized and incapable of changing, it will violently be overthrown from within.
Conversely the left and the union movement have come and now have gone due to complacency and lack of continued commitment. But still, lesson taken, first there must be a real crisis for the left to really start to organize, but when it does, and has a some national unity, its usually unstoppable.
And having said that, I can start to discuss the Vietnam era protests at a time when American was peak prosperity. And woe be to the politician running for office without organized labor backing. As the USA emerged from WW2 far ahead, economically and militarily. With a self confident domestic and foreign policy consensus designed to keep America in first place. Or so we thought.
The first cracks to that solid glass foundation emerged during the 1950's, first a giant nuclear arms race with the Soviet Union, then a Korean war that the failed to win and instead got a stalemate, followed by the shock in sputnik, as the USA woke up one morning and found the USSR was way ahead in the space race. As the USA did the thing it knew best, throw money at the problem and do it inefficiently. Meanwhile, as education became a commodity, a nascent civil rights movement gained critical mass. As America once again saw its itself violently just starting to clash in the streets.
As America's first wave baby boom generation came of draft age just in time for the Vietnam war. The US involvement in Vietnam may have started out small, but after the mid-60's, American boys were coming home in body bags at a rate of 300 a week for months at a time at the times of peak activity. . No one cared that we were killing innocent Vietnamese at 30x the rate, but the civil rights movement and the antiwar movement somewhat combined.
Sadly, in my opinion, it ended up breaking the solidarity of the majority American left.
As the Union movement had achieved prosperity for its members, as they swiftly forgot the fact that the prior two or three generations of their families had to take to the streets and ballot boxes to win their rights. And they initially were not happy or inclined to join a youth based movement opposing the Vietnam war or civil rights for blacks. As for the draft, they had fought in died in WW2 in our nation's hour of need. And felt little sympathy with that did not do the same. As for their own son's, they made sure they were in college or had a military job deferment.
After that, the death of the democratic left was a matter of time and appeasement. First Nixon ended the draft and all the stream went out of the movement, enough of the formerly solid democratic labor votes tilted to the GOP, the civil rights movement won its small victories in law, as this nation found new and different ways to discriminate. And finally basically ended as the nation would not accept busing to achieve racial integration.
So the question is how should we historically view the OWS movement and I feel its hard to predict. One one hand its new birth for left leaning American movement, at exactly a time when government needs do so much in terms of leveling the playing field
so badly tilted against most of the American's people self interests. As the American economy shrinks, formerly well paying middle class jobs derived from value added manufacturing vanish, and outsourced off overseas. As America is racing towards a Haitian style economy. Plenty of goods in the store at low prices, but too few American consumers can buy them. On the other hand are the American people angry enough and united enough to toss the rascals out yet?
My guess may be not quite yet, so OWS may be a fizzle, but rest assured, the American people will have to take matters into their own hands soon. But soon in the eyes of history may be 20 years, the pendulum of change always largely lags the need.
And the last thing to say may be, a stable government can last for a thousand years as long as it keep pace and changes with changing internal and external realities, but as soon as a government becomes fossilized and incapable of changing, it will violently be overthrown from within.
Last edited:
Fern
Elite Member
- Sep 30, 2003
- 26,907
- 174
- 106
Yeah. Basically even if they lost the battle (elections), they won the war (huge transformations to much of American society).
Well of course. A small minority of people will always be much more intelligent, hardworking, innovative and ruthless than the vast majority.
"Men must be governed! Often not wisely, but governed nonetheless."
BudAshes
Lifer
- Jul 20, 2003
- 14,011
- 3,399
- 146
Londo_Jowo
Lifer
Ausm will lose, I have roman spikes on my wheels and a AR-15 (w/30 round magazine) mounted on the handle bars.
KlokWyze
Diamond Member
The draft is what ended the Vietnam war, ironically. Regardless of the pretty successful, pro-military campaigns of today, I doubt Call of Duty + Join the Navy Commercials + Godsmack guitar riffs would really convince most 20 somethings to enthusiastically join the military.
Do you think I should be able to call my Congressman and tell him how I feel about an issue? Do you think I should be able to hire someone to make the call for me? Do you think me and friends should be able to put our money together and hire someone? Where do you draw the line?
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