The ORIGIN of AIDS

[MAW1082]

This thread is simply meant to supplement the 'Flu Shots and Faith' thread:

First, let me summarize the basic process of manufacturing vaccines:

1. Identify the virus in question

2. Identify a living creature which has developed antibodies to the virus

3. Extract tissue from the living creature (the liver or kidneys, etc.)

4. Introduce the virus to the living tissue to develop more antibodies

5. Strain out the solid tissue, leaving a soup of antibodies and other fluids

6. Put it in a syringe and inject it into another living creature so that it has the recipe to make more antibodies to fight the virus

Now this, as far as a I know is the basic recipe for a vaccine. It's kind of a synthetic way of developing traits to protect against natural selection.

So, as one researcher has theorized . . . the living tissue used to create the Polio vaccine was from a Chimpanzee infected with SIV, the Simian version of HIV. Eventually, the SIV mutated into HIV through the process of natural selection and evolution.

Is this possible? Research more about 'The Origin of AIDS.' I saw the film version of the book, it was pretty thought provoking.

It's Evolution Baby!

 

[glenn1]

So, as one researcher has theorized . . . the living tissue used to create the Polio vaccine was from a Chimpanzee infected with SIV, the Simian version of HIV. Eventually, the SIV mutated into HIV through the process of natural selection and evolution.

I thought polio vaccines were created by using inactivated vacinnia virus?

 

[Hacp]

Originally posted by: MAW1082
This thread is simply meant to supplement the 'Flu Shots and Faith' thread:

First, let me summarize the basic process of manufacturing vaccines:

1. Identify the virus in question

2. Identify a living creature which has developed antibodies to the virus

3. Extract tissue from the living creature (the liver or kidneys, etc.)

4. Introduce the virus to the living tissue to develop more antibodies

5. Strain out the solid tissue, leaving a soup of antibodies and other fluids

6. Put it in a syringe and inject it into another living creature so that it has the recipe to make more antibodies to fight the virus

Now this, as far as a I know is the basic recipe for a vaccine. It's kind of a synthetic way of developing traits to protect against natural selection.

So, as one researcher has theorized . . . the living tissue used to create the Polio vaccine was from a Chimpanzee infected with SIV, the Simian version of HIV. Eventually, the SIV mutated into HIV through the process of natural selection and evolution.

Is this possible? Research more about 'The Origin of AIDS.' I saw the film version of the book, it was pretty thought provoking.

It's Evolution Baby!

um are you kidding?

 

[abj13]

Originally posted by: MAW1082
Now this, as far as a I know is the basic recipe for a vaccine. It's kind of a synthetic way of developing traits to protect against natural selection.

Antibodies would not provide long-term protection to an infection. The body would have no way of figuring out that "hey I need this idiotype of antibodies," because those changes would have to be done at the DNA level or through areas like thymic selection.

Almost every vaccine works by using a dead form of a virus, proteins of a virus, or an analogue of the virus, which does not infect humans.

Antibodies are not used for vaccines to protect someone for the long term. They are used in problems with Rh+ babies in Rh- mothers, but that is not a vaccine.

 

[Meuge]

Originally posted by: glenn1

So, as one researcher has theorized . . . the living tissue used to create the Polio vaccine was from a Chimpanzee infected with SIV, the Simian version of HIV. Eventually, the SIV mutated into HIV through the process of natural selection and evolution.

I thought polio vaccines were created by using inactivated vacinnia virus?

You're thinking of a smallpox vaccine.

 

[Meuge]

.

 

[TraumaRN]

I was going to post some findings on HIV vaccines and some other things about the virus(etiology, pathophysiology etc) but I figured since Meuge is our resident expert on the issue I won't.

However the OP did mention one thing interesting to me, and that is the origin of HIV/AIDS, now I dont know if they'll ever truly nail down a source but I hope they do just to prove that it wasnt a scourge of God to strike down gays...or that some drug company made it up and that getting HAART treatment actually makes you infected somehow

 

[Meuge]

Originally posted by: DeathBUA
I was going to post some findings on HIV vaccines and some other things about the virus(etiology, pathophysiology etc) but I figured since Meuge is our resident expert on the issue I won't.

However the OP did mention one thing interesting to me, and that is the origin of HIV/AIDS, now I dont know if they'll ever truly nail down a source but I hope they do just to prove that it wasnt a scourge of God to strike down gays...or that some drug company made it up and that getting HAART treatment actually makes you infected somehow

I don't think we should worry about that. Just like ID, these ridiculous speculations (my tongue can't twist far enough to reach my ass, thus not allowing me to call them theories) should place the burden of proof on the shmucks who perpetrate them, not on us.

A statement is not true if hasn't been proven false. Formal scientific inquiry doesn't work that way. The veracity is determined in a diametrically opposite manner.

 

[Meuge]

Originally posted by: DeathBUA
I was going to post some findings on HIV vaccines and some other things about the virus(etiology, pathophysiology etc) but I figured since Meuge is our resident expert on the issue I won't.

Actually, HIV may be one of the best examples of evolution at work. Its genetic replication machinery is so incredibly bad, that it had puzzled virologists for years, until they realized that the collossal rate of mistakes ultimately works to the advantage of the virus, since it creates an incredible number of mutants very fast. This results in a very large percentage of nonviable replication- or metabolism-deficient virus... but also works to protect it from the attacks of the immune system.

That's why if you plot the level of virus in the blood (viral load) of a patient against time, you get something that looks like gradually increasing waves... as the virus is repeatedly almost completely cleared by the immune system, only to shift to a different antigen isotype, and come back.

 

[ntdz]

I could've sworn that vaccines were weakened versions of the viruses introduced into the body so the body can fight it off, thus becoming immune to it.

 

[Meuge]

Originally posted by: ntdz
I could've sworn that vaccines were weakened versions of the viruses introduced into the body so the body can fight it off, thus becoming immune to it.

It depends on the vaccine actually - there are several types. The one you're thinking of is called a "live attenuated" vaccine. Along with xenobiotic vaccines, these are the most effective types of vaccines. They elicit both a T, and B cell response... and result in both T and B cell memory cells being created. An example of live attenuated vaccine is the new "FluMist" nasal inhaled flu vaccine, as well as the oral polio vaccine. The most famous xenobiotic vaccine is of course its namesake - the vaccinia virus, otherwise known as cowpox.

Another type of vaccine is a "inactivated" vaccine. Here the virus is killed, typically by treating it with formaldehyde, and often irradiated to make sure that genetic material is destroyed. This material is then introduced (usually subcutaneously) into the body alongside an irritant. The resulting inflammation produces an antibody (B-cell)-mediated response, and generates much few memory B-cells, and no memory T-cells.

The last type of vaccine is a "subunit" or "purified protein" vaccine. Here the virus (or bacterium) is destroyed, and the highly immunogenic proteins (or complexes) are purified and then used as a vaccine (also with an irritant). Nowadays, many of these proteins are not actually produced from live virus (or bacteria), but are recombinant (produced by cloning the genes that translate into the protein of interest, into an organism specifically adapated to produce large volumes of protein).

 

[MAW1082]

Originally posted by: glenn1

So, as one researcher has theorized . . . the living tissue used to create the Polio vaccine was from a Chimpanzee infected with SIV, the Simian version of HIV. Eventually, the SIV mutated into HIV through the process of natural selection and evolution.

I thought polio vaccines were created by using inactivated vacinnia virus?

There may have been quite a large number of methods attempted at creating a vaccine; however, I think it was created in the way I mentioned.

The doctor who may be to blame for the SIV to HIV transformation was pretty much shunned by the medical community in the US. he was caught testing out some of his early work on people (people with mental retardation I believe). He then tried to make the polio vaccine by employing the intiially stated process, but he used all kinds of monkeys transported directly from Africa. The guy was then kicked out of the US and went to the Belgian Congo (I think?). Continued with the same research and AIDS breaks out there. It most definitely could be a coincidence.

His name was Dr. Hilary Koprowski.

Now there has been a test done on a loftover vaccine which was supposedly an original vaccine. It was found not to have the SIV virus contained in it. But I think only one vile was tested.

Edit: Reading over this again, the vaccine tested was from other types of monkeys, not chimpanzees. It is thought that chimpanzees were the carriers of the SIV virus. Kaprowski was known to have imported large numbers of chimps for testing during the preiod he was developing the vaccine in africa.

 

[AragornTK]

I know this may be a little off topic... but how can we see the evolution of a non living subject (HIV/AIDS) but living organisms take millions and billions of years to evolve?

just wondering, don't mean to hijack the thread MAW

 

[chcarnage]

Originally posted by: AragornTK
I know this may be a little off topic... but how can we see the evolution of a non living subject (HIV/AIDS) but living organisms take millions and billions of years to evolve?

just wondering, don't mean to hijack the thread MAW

Viruses and Microorganisms procreate much faster than mammals and this allows faster evolution. We also can observe evolution in living microorganisms in short timeframes (e.g. antibiotics resistance of some bacteria).

 

[Meuge]

Originally posted by: AragornTK
I know this may be a little off topic... but how can we see the evolution of a non living subject (HIV/AIDS) but living organisms take millions and billions of years to evolve?

just wondering, don't mean to hijack the thread MAW

Two words: Reproductive cycle

Bacteria and lysogenic viruses may have generation times as short as 20-30 minutes... versus 25 years for a large mammal. That's a 650'000X difference. Thus, to bacteria, the last 100 years were like 65'000'000 years to mammals.

Of course, there are even more layers of complexity beyond that, but that's the simple explanation.

 

[AragornTK]

I suppose that satisfies...



I was hoping for something more along the lines of "virus's are infused with pixie dust"... but oh well, I guess "science" wins this round
j/k

I guess it makes sense