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The nonpartisan website Spinsanity weighs in on the swiftboat anti-kerry ad

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Finally, an unbiased site gives us the dirty details. The analysis doesn't look good for Riprorin, charrison, heartsurgeon, cad, and rush limbaugh:

http://www.spinsanity.org/post.html?2004_08_08_archive.html#109210244709528076

Spinning swiftly (8/9)

By Bryan Keefer

A new ad by an independent group called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth attacks John Kerry's service in Vietnam. Some of the evidence presented by the group, however, fails to back up allegations presented in the ad. And some reporters and pundits are already spinning the facts about members of the group.


The group's ad repeatedly accuses Kerry of lying - an inflammatory charge that the ad presents no evidence to support. On its website the group provides supporting materials, but the charges often boil down to disputed accounts to which there is no definitive resolution.

For example, the commercial features one veteran, Louis Letson, who states that "I know John Kerry is lying about his first Purple Heart because I treated him for that injury." In backup documentation on the website, Letson, a former military doctor, describes the treatment he gave Kerry: removing a small piece of shrapnel from his arm and applying a bandage. (Letson, however, did not sign the medical treatment report of Kerry's injury.) While the group suggests that the injury was minor, the extent of the injury does not matter according to the Navy's criteria for Purple Heart eligibility, only that it was received by enemy fire.

Letson speculates that the wound could have been caused by shrapnel from a mortar fired by Kerry himself, which may have exploded close enough to the boat to cause such an injury. Letson, however, was not present during the firefight, and bases his accusation on the contested accounts of others. This is extremely thin evidence upon which to directly accuse Kerry of lying.

A second example is the dispute surrounding Kerry's Silver Star. In the ad, Kerry's former commanding officer George Elliott, who recommended Kerry for the medal, states that "John Kerry has not been honest about what happened in Vietnam." In an affidavit, Elliott states, "Had I known the facts, I would not have recommended Kerry for the Silver Star for simply pursuing and dispatching a single, wounded, fleeing Viet Cong."

However, as FactCheck.org pointed out, Elliott himself admits that his contention is not based on first-hand knowledge, but rather upon his own reading of other versions of events, including Kerry's own account in a biography by Douglas Brinkley. Moreover, Elliott's claim in his affidavit mischaracterizes the official citation, which awarded Kerry the medal for two ambushes - not just the specific killing of a member of the Viet Cong. (Last week Elliott appeared to retract his criticisms in a Boston Globe article, but later issued a statement reaffirming it.)

In short, the evidence upon which the group has based its claims of lying falls short, for the moment, of definitively proving these charges.

Unsurprisingly, however, the group's allegations are already being distorted. While none of the veterans filmed in the ad served in either of the swift boats Kerry commanded in the war, the group's technically true claim that the men "served with" John Kerry is already leading some pundits and journalists to exaggerate their relationship to the Massachusetts senator.

Fox News Channel has seen several instances of such distortion. As the liberal group Media Matters pointed out, Fox News Channel's Sean Hannity and Pat Halpin both claimed that the men were "some of his crewmates" on August 4, and Catherine Herridge introduced the ad as " featuring some of John Kerry's Vietnam crewmates" on August 6. Such exaggerations take the technically true claim that the veterans served with Kerry and spin it into a misleading talking point.

Perhaps the release of the book Unfit for Command will provide more definitive evidence. But the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth ad and website do not prove several of the group's charges.
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
Sean Hannity, Pat Halpin, and Catherine Herridge should all be fired for purposely misrepresenting the truth and trying to influence voters. There is no place for that is journalism. Save that sh!t for the water cooler.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Fox News Channel's Sean Hannity and Pat Halpin both claimed that the men were "some of his crewmates"

Why am I not surprised Hannity would froth at the mouth over this?

Is there a more pathetic sack of bloated protoplasm on this planet?
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Phokus
Finally, an unbiased site gives us the dirty details. The analysis doesn't look good for Riprorin, charrison, heartsurgeon, cad, and rush limbaugh:

:roll: Nice try, but this analysis isn't "bad" or "good" for me, so take your little "weasel snipe" elsewhere junior. It's simply rehashing things that aren't settled. They cry spin, and this "article" can be considered the same thing. They may be misinterpreting or making things bigger than they were in the ad.

CkG
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: Phokus
Finally, an unbiased site gives us the dirty details. The analysis doesn't look good for Riprorin, charrison, heartsurgeon, cad, and rush limbaugh:

:roll: Nice try, but this analysis isn't "bad" or "good" for me, so take your little "weasel snipe" elsewhere junior. It's simply rehashing things that aren't settled. They cry spin, and this "article" can be considered the same thing. They may be misinterpreting or making things bigger than they were in the ad.

CkG

They aren't making claims one way or the other cad, they're just pointing out the inconsistencies of the swiftboat claims.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: Phokus
Finally, an unbiased site gives us the dirty details. The analysis doesn't look good for Riprorin, charrison, heartsurgeon, cad, and rush limbaugh:

:roll: Nice try, but this analysis isn't "bad" or "good" for me, so take your little "weasel snipe" elsewhere junior. It's simply rehashing things that aren't settled. They cry spin, and this "article" can be considered the same thing. They may be misinterpreting or making things bigger than they were in the ad.

CkG

They aren't making claims one way or the other cad, they're just pointing out the inconsistencies of the swiftboat claims.

But they are spinning how it's presented and received. Just because they claim it's being distorted doesn't mean the ad is. Those people served with kerry- correct? Thought so.

Now again, none of us know if what they say is true or a lie and for you to sit here and claim it isn't good news for me is laughable.

Next...

CkG
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: Phokus
Finally, an unbiased site gives us the dirty details. The analysis doesn't look good for Riprorin, charrison, heartsurgeon, cad, and rush limbaugh:

:roll: Nice try, but this analysis isn't "bad" or "good" for me, so take your little "weasel snipe" elsewhere junior. It's simply rehashing things that aren't settled. They cry spin, and this "article" can be considered the same thing. They may be misinterpreting or making things bigger than they were in the ad.

CkG

They aren't making claims one way or the other cad, they're just pointing out the inconsistencies of the swiftboat claims.

But they are spinning how it's presented and received. Just because they claim it's being distorted doesn't mean the ad is. Those people served with kerry- correct? Thought so.

Now again, none of us know if what they say is true or a lie and for you to sit here and claim it isn't good news for me is laughable.

Next...

CkG

They 'served' with him, but they weren't on the same boat as he was. Spinsanity was pointing out how some media outlets were saying that some of these veterans were 'crewmates' of kerry's when they clearly weren't. They were either on the same boat as kerry, or they weren't. There's no 'spinning' here (well, except for the spin you're putting out :p)
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Originally posted by: alchemize
I thought calling out threads were locked and/or deleted?

I thought it was only in the titles? (sorry i don't cruise the P&N forums every day like i used to)
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: alchemize
I thought calling out threads were locked and/or deleted?

I thought it was only in the titles? (sorry i don't cruise the P&N forums every day like i used to)

I stand corrected. The other calling out example I've seen the moderator said something along the lines of "None of these people have posted yet in this thread, what is the point of naming them all" or something along those lines. But (s)he didn't lock it.

In any case, it's inappropriate. But I'm not a mod so all I can do is express my humble opinion.
 

Drift3r

Guest
Jun 3, 2003
3,572
0
0
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: Phokus
Finally, an unbiased site gives us the dirty details. The analysis doesn't look good for Riprorin, charrison, heartsurgeon, cad, and rush limbaugh:

:roll: Nice try, but this analysis isn't "bad" or "good" for me, so take your little "weasel snipe" elsewhere junior. It's simply rehashing things that aren't settled. They cry spin, and this "article" can be considered the same thing. They may be misinterpreting or making things bigger than they were in the ad.

CkG

They aren't making claims one way or the other cad, they're just pointing out the inconsistencies of the swiftboat claims.

But they are spinning how it's presented and received. Just because they claim it's being distorted doesn't mean the ad is. Those people served with kerry- correct? Thought so.

Now again, none of us know if what they say is true or a lie and for you to sit here and claim it isn't good news for me is laughable.

Next...

CkG


Actually no ! Only one guy from SwitBoatVets.com served with/under Kerry and only for a short while as stated by Bill O'Reily on his show the other day and that guy clearly hates and loathes Kerry for his post-Vietnam statements. He clearly has a agenda behind his attacks and statements.
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
Originally posted by: arsbanned
These guys are liars. Case closed. Nice try 'cons.

Yep. They won't even have their 15 minutes of fame because they are liars and too scared to face any sort of an inquiry into their fabrications. All we hear from the to support their bold stories is that they are all very upset with his post war behaviour. Not a one of them (like Letson) have the stones to answer questons regarding statements that are directly accusing Kerry of lying himself. They will only speak about their 'opinons' of his ability to be CIC. I served with John Kerry, too. Except my tour of duty was in the early 80's and I was in the Marines. But damn it, I served in the same damn military so what is the difference.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: Phokus
Finally, an unbiased site gives us the dirty details. The analysis doesn't look good for Riprorin, charrison, heartsurgeon, cad, and rush limbaugh:

:roll: Nice try, but this analysis isn't "bad" or "good" for me, so take your little "weasel snipe" elsewhere junior. It's simply rehashing things that aren't settled. They cry spin, and this "article" can be considered the same thing. They may be misinterpreting or making things bigger than they were in the ad.

CkG

They aren't making claims one way or the other cad, they're just pointing out the inconsistencies of the swiftboat claims.

But they are spinning how it's presented and received. Just because they claim it's being distorted doesn't mean the ad is. Those people served with kerry- correct? Thought so.

Now again, none of us know if what they say is true or a lie and for you to sit here and claim it isn't good news for me is laughable.

Next...

CkG

They 'served' with him, but they weren't on the same boat as he was. Spinsanity was pointing out how some media outlets were saying that some of these veterans were 'crewmates' of kerry's when they clearly weren't. They were either on the same boat as kerry, or they weren't. There's no 'spinning' here (well, except for the spin you're putting out :p)

But the ad didn't say they all served under him on his boat now did it?;) Spinsanity is claiming that just because some commentators or such have taken liberties with that doesn't mean the ad is wrong.
Spinsanity is trying to make the link between someone commenting and embellishing what was said and what the ad actually said. So yes, you may think it is unbias or unspun but they did infact try to present it in a spun fashion.

Drift3r - and? Did the ad claim that they all served on his boat? Umm - nope. Maybe the guy hates kerry for what he did after the war, and? That somehow makes his opinion invalid? I know quite a few Vietnam vets who think kerry is a liar and think what he did was stabbing them all in the back and aiding the enemy. I met and talked to a bunch of them today. But yeah, since they have an agenda it makes it all invalid...ofcourse you overlook kerry's agenda.
Oops - sorry, I meant "kerry, the highly decorated Vietnam veteran" :roll: ...but there is no agenda there...

alchemize - you are correct.

CkG