THE NEXT CHAPTER - all you chemistry pros (including YOU Lab Rat) get in here and let's make free fatty acid history!!!!

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SaltyNuts

Platinum Member
May 1, 2001
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Thank you very much for your post snoopy7548. But what you linked to does not contain free form fatty acids, at least not in any appreciable amount. They are just oils. Heck, you can see it on one of those pictures where it has the ingredients at the bottom - borage oil, flax oil, yadda yadda yadda. Just plain old oils they are selling for a bunch of money.

But I appreciate your help!

And LAB RAT, I see you gave snoopy a thumbs up right there, so I know you are here! Help a homie out, brother!!!!
 
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snoopy7548

Diamond Member
Jan 1, 2005
7,514
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Do you have a centrifuge, a Bunsen burner, and an Erlenmeyer flask? I can walk you through it, but you need those first.
 

uclaLabrat

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2007
5,275
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The reason I'm not giving any help is you have clearly demonstrated you don't understand the dangers; you thought adding the base and neutralizing the saponified product is the dangerous part. It's not. What the real danger is to you (and everyone around you) is the fire hazard:
"Man dies days after "butane honey oil" explosion in Oxnard" https://amp.vcstar.com/amp/6391818001

So no, lacking proper equipment and supervision I'm not providing guidance to people who are going to pose a danger to themselves but really everyone around them.

You can find soap made from the shit you want and honestly all you're doing is making hipster shit a la fight club that isn't doing anything for your hair or scalp as you claim (and the obsession is honestly disturbing at this point). Given the number of existing grifters in the health and beauty market (which has to be the most saturated market on the planet outside of MAYBE real estate speculation), if what you were attempting had any real benefit, someone would lost certainly be doing it by now.

Quit while you're behind.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
108,303
25,131
146
You know soap is really bad for you, don't you, OP? It can make you filthier, and it is certainly really quite bad for your skin health.

This thing you are doing is a colossal waste of money.

Soap should only ever be used "where skin folds over other skin." The rest of your dermis is naturally self-cleansing, and self-protective. Every time you scrub yourself with soap, you're destroying several millimeters of anti-bacterial, anti-viral protection. It's very bad for you, and is also exactly why the very same industry that convinced you to soap up every inch of your body, later had to create all of these pointless "moisturizing" products that humanity never needed, an certainly doesn't need, save for Big Soap's desire to remain preposterously profitable.

You're a total rube, OP.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
64,986
19,652
136
You know soap is really bad for you, don't you, OP? It can make you filthier, and it is certainly really quite bad for your skin health.

This thing you are doing is a colossal waste of money.

Soap should only ever be used "where skin folds over other skin." The rest of your dermis is naturally self-cleansing, and self-protective. Every time you scrub yourself with soap, you're destroying several millimeters of anti-bacterial, anti-viral protection. It's very bad for you, and is also exactly why the very same industry that convinced you to soap up every inch of your body, later had to create all of these pointless "moisturizing" products that humanity never needed, an certainly doesn't need, save for Big Soap's desire to remain preposterously profitable.

You're a total rube, OP.
List of people I will share a sleeping bag with:
zinfamous
 

SaltyNuts

Platinum Member
May 1, 2001
2,399
270
126
The reason I'm not giving any help is you have clearly demonstrated you don't understand the dangers; you thought adding the base and neutralizing the saponified product is the dangerous part. It's not. What the real danger is to you (and everyone around you) is the fire hazard:
"Man dies days after "butane honey oil" explosion in Oxnard" https://amp.vcstar.com/amp/6391818001

So no, lacking proper equipment and supervision I'm not providing guidance to people who are going to pose a danger to themselves but really everyone around them.

You can find soap made from the shit you want and honestly all you're doing is making hipster shit a la fight club that isn't doing anything for your hair or scalp as you claim (and the obsession is honestly disturbing at this point). Given the number of existing grifters in the health and beauty market (which has to be the most saturated market on the planet outside of MAYBE real estate speculation), if what you were attempting had any real benefit, someone would lost certainly be doing it by now.

Quit while you're behind.


OK, Lab Rat, fine, you win. Forget it. I give up. But let me ask you a totally different theoretical question then.

Let's say you had a mix of fatty acids, all perfectly extracted, using the method above that you don't want to spell out for me. Just assume, POOF, they are there, all perfect.

But now you want to extract out ONE of those several types of fatty acids out of the mix. Let's make it a simple example, and probably the hardest to separate.

Let's say you have a mixture of what you are sure is 70% linoleic acid and 30% linolenic acid.

Now, these are VERY similar substances. The differences in physical properties are small.

The freezing point of the former is apparently -5 degrees celcius, the latter -11 degrees celsius.

So could you get a freezer, set it on -5 degrees (or -6 or -7) , and freeze the former, pouring out the latter, thus separating them? I worry that because they are miscible in one another (maybe that is not the correct word) this would not work because they become a joint/combined liquid and they will just freeze out at some temperature (probably somewhere between -5 and -11 I would guess) at the same time, doing you no good. Does that sound right that that won't work?

Now, apparently linoleic acid has a boiling point of around 400 degrees celcius, linolenic acid is closer to 450 degrees celcius. So, theoretically, could you boil the mix at the 400 degrees and wait until approximately 70% of the total has distilled out, leaving only 30% behind, and what remains should MOSTLY be linolenic acid? I know their boiling points are not that far apart so SOME linolenic acid would boil out as well, and so you would be left with SOME linoleic acid in the mix. But any guesstimate as to how much left behind would be the linolenic acid?

I'm reading about "columns" to separate out different types of free fatty acids. Like "silica" columns. And even some studies used "argonized silica colums" or some crap like that. Do you know anything about those?

Thank you so much Lab Rat, and I sincerely do appreciate you not wanting me to blow myself up. :)
 

uclaLabrat

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2007
5,275
2,254
136
OK, Lab Rat, fine, you win. Forget it. I give up. But let me ask you a totally different theoretical question then.

Let's say you had a mix of fatty acids, all perfectly extracted, using the method above that you don't want to spell out for me. Just assume, POOF, they are there, all perfect.

But now you want to extract out ONE of those several types of fatty acids out of the mix. Let's make it a simple example, and probably the hardest to separate.

Let's say you have a mixture of what you are sure is 70% linoleic acid and 30% linolenic acid.

Now, these are VERY similar substances. The differences in physical properties are small.

The freezing point of the former is apparently -5 degrees celcius, the latter -11 degrees celsius.

So could you get a freezer, set it on -5 degrees (or -6 or -7) , and freeze the former, pouring out the latter, thus separating them? I worry that because they are miscible in one another (maybe that is not the correct word) this would not work because they become a joint/combined liquid and they will just freeze out at some temperature (probably somewhere between -5 and -11 I would guess) at the same time, doing you no good. Does that sound right that that won't work?

Now, apparently linoleic acid has a boiling point of around 400 degrees celcius, linolenic acid is closer to 450 degrees celcius. So, theoretically, could you boil the mix at the 400 degrees and wait until approximately 70% of the total has distilled out, leaving only 30% behind, and what remains should MOSTLY be linolenic acid? I know their boiling points are not that far apart so SOME linolenic acid would boil out as well, and so you would be left with SOME linoleic acid in the mix. But any guesstimate as to how much left behind would be the linolenic acid?

I'm reading about "columns" to separate out different types of free fatty acids. Like "silica" columns. And even some studies used "argonized silica colums" or some crap like that. Do you know anything about those?

Thank you so much Lab Rat, and I sincerely do appreciate you not wanting me to blow myself up. :)
You could try the freezer trick (fractional crystallization) but 1) those melting points are very close and 2) those melting points are only valid for pure substances, not mixes. I think it wont work.

Distillation would be a better way to go and separating things with a BP difference of 50 deg is generally trivial (like that's what I would give someone in their first ochem lab) but you won't be distilling anything at 400 deg c except carbon dioxide cause that shit will all catch on fire.

Silica gel columns are the bread and butter workhorse in ochem purification but 1) running fatty acids through there will be a stone cold bitch, 2) silica gel is expensive as fuck and working with it without the proper safety equipment can give you silicosis, and finally 3) you would need giant size columns and barrels of highly flammable solvents to accomplish this (which you then need to distill off safely and dispose of safely).

All of this is a waste of time.
 

SaltyNuts

Platinum Member
May 1, 2001
2,399
270
126
Wow Lab Rat. Wow. Your post came crashing down on me hard. I mean HARD. Honestly I guess I need to go back to the drawing board and think about this some more. Fuck. But let me boil this down to a simple question: Is there no cost (and health) effective way to separate free linolenic acid (regular, alpha or gamma) from other free fatty acids? It literally cannot be done in any cost effective manner?

Thanks so much Lab Rat, so glad you had the horsepower here, none of these other yahoos do LOL...

:(
 

SaltyNuts

Platinum Member
May 1, 2001
2,399
270
126
And, let me add, it IS possible to extract it one way or another, it has to be, here is a link:

https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/US/en/product/sigma/l2376


You can see how expensive it is (despite what the yahoos were saying earlier in this thread or the other thread, "just buy it, you are wasting your time when you could just buy it cheap!!!". You can see how expensive it is. But how did THEY get their purified linolenic acid? They made it somehow. But steam distillation? Those cancer causing columns? They had to get it purified SOMEHOW...

Thanks!!!

:(
 

uclaLabrat

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2007
5,275
2,254
136
And, let me add, it IS possible to extract it one way or another, it has to be, here is a link:

https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/US/en/product/sigma/l2376


You can see how expensive it is (despite what the yahoos were saying earlier in this thread or the other thread, "just buy it, you are wasting your time when you could just buy it cheap!!!". You can see how expensive it is. But how did THEY get their purified linolenic acid? They made it somehow. But steam distillation? Those cancer causing columns? They had to get it purified SOMEHOW...

Thanks!!!

:(
I'm sure there are ways to isolate it, but as you see it won't be cheap. That shit probably isomerizes under visible light as well so unless you plan on working in the dark, it's probably toast anyway.

The better question is, WHY do you want to separate them? You're making soap. It doesn't fucking matter if you have the unsaturated or saturated versions. Doesn't. Fucking. Matter. Stop wasting your energy.
 
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snoopy7548

Diamond Member
Jan 1, 2005
7,514
4,382
136
I'm sure there are ways to isolate it, but as you see it won't be cheap. That shit probably isomerizes under visible light as well so unless you plan on working in the dark, it's probably toast anyway.

The better question is, WHY do you want to separate them? You're making soap. It doesn't fucking matter if you have the unsaturated or saturated versions. Doesn't. Fucking. Matter. Stop wasting your energy.
If he wants to use the soap as food, does it matter?
 

SaltyNuts

Platinum Member
May 1, 2001
2,399
270
126
So Lab Rat, I'm just in it for the science now. While I don't have a science background AT ALL, I find this stuff fascinating. And I like solving puzzles. And this is a HUGE puzzle. :)

I'm thinking distillation is the only way to go. But let me ask you this - you mentioned fire risk. What about VACUUM distillation? These substances boil and a much, much lower temperature when you reduce the pressure they are subject to, like 213 degrees Celsius at 1.70E+01 mm Hg. Are there any reasonably priced vacuum distillation devices out there that can get the pressures meaningfully lower than atmospheric pressure to make a difference?

Thanks!!!
 

uclaLabrat

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2007
5,275
2,254
136
Vacuum distillation would be the only way, but you need 1) a good pump to get you in the mTorr range, 2) a very expensive distillation setup to handle anything remotely close to production scale, and 3) experience in setting it up. For something on the scale of 1-200g, I'd expect to spend somewhere between $5-20k for all the equipment, maybe more. For something on the 500g-2kg scale you're talking much higher and I dont think I've ever done vacuum distillation over 500g when distilling solvents for anhydrous reactions.

You're well on your way to pilot scale at that point. It would be cheaper to get a degree and do it professionally. And less dangerous.

Chemistry is hard and it ain't cheap.
 

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