The New Republic?s ?Baghdad Diarist? admits to exaggerations and falsehoods

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Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,052
30
86
Originally posted by: Pabster
Of course, but I'd like for you to explain the following:

One has to wonder whose lies are of greater concern to those dead and wounded troops and their families and friends?

That sure sounds like a two wrongs make a right ... you are implying that two sets of lies were given and that one set is somehow less important than the other.

It means no such thing. If that's what it "sounds like" to you, get a new hearing aid.

Or is there some hidden meaning that I'm overlooking here?

There's no hidden meaning other than whatever fantasy you want to concoct if it makes you feel any better about yourself, and I can't stop you from overlooking the obvious.

I juxtaposed it with PJ's statement in his OP, "...you wonder if they will ever learn." He was referreing to the New Republic for publishing a story that was later proved false. The article to which he referred was by a so-called "Baghdad Diarist," who was supposed to be reporting about events he witnessed in Iraq that weren't being reported elsewhere. Quoting from PJ's OP:

Well now it seems that Mr. Baghdad Diarist has admitted that his articles ?were exaggerations and falsehoods--fabrications containing only "a smidgen of truth,"

That puts the story right in the middle of Baghdad, which makes my question about who has learned what from whose lies about Iraq completely relevant.

Nowhere did I condone publishing false stories or excuse any publisher from due diligence to confirm the accuracy of the material they publish. If a right wing rag like the Weekly Standard is to be believed, that includes the New Republic. That includes the Bushwhacko administration if what they've told the American public was false, which is well established by multiple credible references.

If you read anything else in my post, either you were too lazy to scroll back to the OP for the complete context or you really need to go home and practice reading comprehension.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: senseamp
Talk about a non-story. The out of the mainstream rightwing media is desperate for stories to distract from the mess they helped create, so they are trying to make blogs the story now, like they made the media the story before while ignoring/covering up the real story of government lying us into a war. Next they will be covering ATPN posts they don't like.
nobody claimed that this story was profound or far-reaching; only that it needed to be known that this one individual was a fraud. What's wrong with making that known?

It's also accurate to say that this isn't the first time something like this has happened. Just as all Muslims can't be blamed for the actions of the fanatical minority, the Far Left fanatics written about in this thread are not indicative of the entire Left-leaning crowd.

It still needed to be known.

relax duuuude.

Riight, we really need to know when someone lies in some blog, because blogs never lie. Definitely newsworthy material there. :roll:
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
8
0
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: senseamp
Talk about a non-story. The out of the mainstream rightwing media is desperate for stories to distract from the mess they helped create, so they are trying to make blogs the story now, like they made the media the story before while ignoring/covering up the real story of government lying us into a war. Next they will be covering ATPN posts they don't like.
nobody claimed that this story was profound or far-reaching; only that it needed to be known that this one individual was a fraud. What's wrong with making that known?

It's also accurate to say that this isn't the first time something like this has happened. Just as all Muslims can't be blamed for the actions of the fanatical minority, the Far Left fanatics written about in this thread are not indicative of the entire Left-leaning crowd.

It still needed to be known.

relax duuuude.
Riight, we really need to know when someone lies in some blog, because blogs never lie. Definitely newsworthy material there. :roll:
You seem to be missing a few things.

This was not just a random blog, but a blog for a large national magazine.

Second, the guy posts his outlandish and made up stories on the New Republic?s web site and others figure they must be true because of the source. Thus lies are repeated and myths are perpetuated.

Remember the story about the Koran being flushed at Gitmo? Never happened, someone made it up, repeated the story to the media and next thing you know its on the front page of the NY Times.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: senseamp
Talk about a non-story. The out of the mainstream rightwing media is desperate for stories to distract from the mess they helped create, so they are trying to make blogs the story now, like they made the media the story before while ignoring/covering up the real story of government lying us into a war. Next they will be covering ATPN posts they don't like.
nobody claimed that this story was profound or far-reaching; only that it needed to be known that this one individual was a fraud. What's wrong with making that known?

It's also accurate to say that this isn't the first time something like this has happened. Just as all Muslims can't be blamed for the actions of the fanatical minority, the Far Left fanatics written about in this thread are not indicative of the entire Left-leaning crowd.

It still needed to be known.

relax duuuude.
Riight, we really need to know when someone lies in some blog, because blogs never lie. Definitely newsworthy material there. :roll:
You seem to be missing a few things.

This was not just a random blog, but a blog for a large national magazine.

Second, the guy posts his outlandish and made up stories on the New Republic?s web site and others figure they must be true because of the source. Thus lies are repeated and myths are perpetuated.

Remember the story about the Koran being flushed at Gitmo? Never happened, someone made it up, repeated the story to the media and next thing you know its on the front page of the NY Times.

Remember those Iraq WMD's that Weekly Standards, Washington times, and other rightwing rags made up?
Never happened, someone made it up, repeated the story to the media and next thing you know its on the front page of the NY Times. I don't see you attacking right wing mags for their much bigger and consequential lies.
BTW, New Republic editorials were supporting the war (Spencer Ackerman), so it's not like it has much credibility even in liberal circles.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: senseamp
Talk about a non-story. The out of the mainstream rightwing media is desperate for stories to distract from the mess they helped create, so they are trying to make blogs the story now, like they made the media the story before while ignoring/covering up the real story of government lying us into a war. Next they will be covering ATPN posts they don't like.
nobody claimed that this story was profound or far-reaching; only that it needed to be known that this one individual was a fraud. What's wrong with making that known?

It's also accurate to say that this isn't the first time something like this has happened. Just as all Muslims can't be blamed for the actions of the fanatical minority, the Far Left fanatics written about in this thread are not indicative of the entire Left-leaning crowd.

It still needed to be known.

relax duuuude.
Riight, we really need to know when someone lies in some blog, because blogs never lie. Definitely newsworthy material there. :roll:
You seem to be missing a few things.

This was not just a random blog, but a blog for a large national magazine.

Second, the guy posts his outlandish and made up stories on the New Republic?s web site and others figure they must be true because of the source. Thus lies are repeated and myths are perpetuated.

Remember the story about the Koran being flushed at Gitmo? Never happened, someone made it up, repeated the story to the media and next thing you know its on the front page of the NY Times.

Remember those Iraq WMD's that Weekly Standards, Washington times, and other rightwing rags made up?
Never happened, someone made it up, repeated the story to the media and next thing you know its on the front page of the NY Times. I don't see you attacking right wing mags for their much bigger and consequential lies.
BTW, New Republic editorials were supporting the war (Spencer Ackerman), so it's not like it has much credibility even in liberal circles.
You sound like some little dysfunctional kid trying to justify the fraud... "but..but.. mommy! It was only a little white lie! I saw Tommy tell a bigger one!..."
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: senseamp
Talk about a non-story. The out of the mainstream rightwing media is desperate for stories to distract from the mess they helped create, so they are trying to make blogs the story now, like they made the media the story before while ignoring/covering up the real story of government lying us into a war. Next they will be covering ATPN posts they don't like.
nobody claimed that this story was profound or far-reaching; only that it needed to be known that this one individual was a fraud. What's wrong with making that known?

It's also accurate to say that this isn't the first time something like this has happened. Just as all Muslims can't be blamed for the actions of the fanatical minority, the Far Left fanatics written about in this thread are not indicative of the entire Left-leaning crowd.

It still needed to be known.

relax duuuude.
Riight, we really need to know when someone lies in some blog, because blogs never lie. Definitely newsworthy material there. :roll:
You seem to be missing a few things.

This was not just a random blog, but a blog for a large national magazine.

Second, the guy posts his outlandish and made up stories on the New Republic?s web site and others figure they must be true because of the source. Thus lies are repeated and myths are perpetuated.

Remember the story about the Koran being flushed at Gitmo? Never happened, someone made it up, repeated the story to the media and next thing you know its on the front page of the NY Times.

Remember those Iraq WMD's that Weekly Standards, Washington times, and other rightwing rags made up?
Never happened, someone made it up, repeated the story to the media and next thing you know its on the front page of the NY Times. I don't see you attacking right wing mags for their much bigger and consequential lies.
BTW, New Republic editorials were supporting the war (Spencer Ackerman), so it's not like it has much credibility even in liberal circles.
You sound like some little dysfunctional kid trying to justify the fraud... "but..but.. mommy! It was only a little white lie! I saw Tommy tell a bigger one!..."
You are trying to equate what some dude wrote in some blog to a lie that costs thousands of lives and hundreds of billions of dollars. Not going to fly. Yeah, not all liberal blogs are accurate or truthful, happy now?
Stop the presses.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
8
0
Originally posted by: senseamp
Remember those Iraq WMD's that Weekly Standards, Washington times, and other rightwing rags made up?
Never happened, someone made it up, repeated the story to the media and next thing you know its on the front page of the NY Times. I don't see you attacking right wing mags for their much bigger and consequential lies.
BTW, New Republic editorials were supporting the war (Spencer Ackerman), so it's not like it has much credibility even in liberal circles.
Are you sure those magazines just ?made up? the WMD stories?

Maybe they were just repeating what Bill Clinton and Al Gore were saying when they were President and Vice President.

I guess that was our first mistake, we should have known that anything Bill said was a lie or an exaggeration.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: senseamp
Remember those Iraq WMD's that Weekly Standards, Washington times, and other rightwing rags made up?
Never happened, someone made it up, repeated the story to the media and next thing you know its on the front page of the NY Times. I don't see you attacking right wing mags for their much bigger and consequential lies.
BTW, New Republic editorials were supporting the war (Spencer Ackerman), so it's not like it has much credibility even in liberal circles.
Are you sure those magazines just ?made up? the WMD stories?

Maybe they were just repeating what Bill Clinton and Al Gore were saying when they were President and Vice President.

I guess that was our first mistake, we should have known that anything Bill said was a lie or an exaggeration.

So you are using what Clinton said in 1998 to justify starting a war in 2003 when we had inspectors on the ground in 2003 saying they weren't finding any WMDs. Clinton may have thought Iraq had WMDs, but he didn't pretend there was slam dunk case for an occupation, which is why he was smart enough to not invade Iraq, just drop a few bombs and call it a day.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
The rightwing rags didn't make up the stories, they just parroted what the Bush Admin gave them, then editorialized on it, too...

9/11-Saddam-Osama-wmd's-alquaeda-terrar-nukes-Iraq was just one big super-hyphenated word... feeding and feeding on the fear and frenzy of 9/11...

Gotta kick some r@ghead butt, yeh, any r@ghead butt, especially teh ebil Saddam...

And anybody who didn't agree was soft on terrar, a weak sister, or worse- probably a traitor, a commie-pinko-f@ggot- liberal-lefty-francophile apologist for the islamofascist hordes poised to rain death on destruction on us all...

9/11 changed everything, goddamnit, everything I tell ya! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11!

Expect a lot more maudlin emotionalism dressed up as patriotism before the election is over, a lot more and a lot of scare tactics, too...

Code Orange! Secure the borders! More guns! More bombs! National Security! Surveillance! Fear for life, liberty, the american way, and most of all, for Jebus!



.....Ask me about the above, and I'll use the Dick Cheney defense- "Absolutely Not! I never said that!".....

And it'll be just as true when I say as when he did...
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
8
0
Originally posted by: umbrella39
i'm telling ya if you ignore the troll he will go away
I?ve been trying to ignore Harvey, but he just won?t go away.

Speaking of trolling? what?s the point of your post?
 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
183
106
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Lots of desperation on the rightwing, eskimospy. So they'll lash out in ways designed to discredit their detractors, rather than to actually support their own positions. It's all they've got, so they'll use it...

The whole rationale behind the invasion of Iraq was based on lies and deception, some of it apparently self deception, so any incidents like the one described will be used in an attempt to trot out the "They're just as Bad!" song and dance.

I wonder if they have a copyright on that... maybe it's now a registered trademark...

No, No, just the right applying their double standard. It is alright when they do it, but don't anyone else try to get away with it.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,006
47,966
136
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Do you think that the left never tells the truth about anything...

That about sums it up. And for the record, no, they don't.

I think it is appropriate to highlight when the outright frauds are discovered, just to remind people that everything you read and watch on television may not be exactly truth.

At any rate, I wonder what your problem with the thread is? Do you not support the cleansing of these fraudsters from the media? I know they toe the line with your political agenda but come on...

Oh hey, I didn't notice your stupid posting until now.

I think I made it very clear what my problem was. It was the original topic summary that said something to the effect of 'does the left ever tell the truth about anything?' That was an asinine thing to write, and I labeled it as such. I was just calling out ProfJohn for trolling, and I made absolutely no statement as to what I thought about this guy.

Of course if someone is lying in what they write I want them to stop. Duh.

You would already know that I hadn't commented on the story if you had actually read what I wrote, but I can't say that I'm particularly surprised. I'm glad to see that you are signing on to statements such as 'the left always lies about everything'. It lets other people know that what you say is utterly worthless, and now they can get that information right from what you wrote instead of having to take my word for it.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
8
0
link
Army denounces 3 articles written by GI
A magazine gets a hot story straight from a soldier in Iraq and publishes his writing, complete with gory details, under a pseudonym. The stories are chilling: An Iraqi boy befriends American troops and later has his tongue cut out by insurgents. Soldiers mock a disfigured woman sitting near them in a dining hall. As a diversion, soldiers run over dogs with armored personnel carriers. Compelling stuff, and, according to the Army, not true.

Three articles by the soldier have run since January in The New Republic, a liberal magazine with a small circulation owned by Canadian company CanWest Corp. The stories, which ran under the name "Scott Thomas," were called into question by The Weekly Standard, a conservative magazine with a small circulation owned by Rupert Murdoch's News Corp. The Standard last month challenged bloggers to check the dispatches.

Since then, Pvt. Scott Thomas Beauchamp, of the 1st Battalion, 18th Infantry, has come forward as the author. The New Republic said that Beauchamp "came to its attention" through Elspeth Reeve, a reporter-researcher at the magazine he later married.

The Army said this week it had concluded an investigation of Beauchamp's claims and found them false.

"During that investigation, all the soldiers from his unit refuted all claims that Pvt. Beauchamp made in his blog," Sgt. 1st Class Robert Timmons, a spokesman in Baghdad for the 4th Brigade, 1st Infantry Division, based at Fort Riley, Kan., said in an e-mail interview.

The Weekly Standard said Beauchamp signed a sworn statement admitting all three articles were exaggerations and falsehoods.

Calls to Editor Franklin Foer at The New Republic in Washington were not returned, but the magazine said on its Web site that it has conducted its own investigation and stands by Beauchamp's work.

In its note posted Aug. 2, it said, "We checked the plausibility of details with experts, contacted a corroborating witness, and pressed the author for further details. But publishing a first-person essay from a war zone requires a measure of faith in the writer. Given what we knew of Beauchamp, personally and professionally, we credited his report."

After the pieces were questioned, the magazine said it extensively re-reported his account, contacting dozens of people, including former soldiers, forensic experts, war reporters and Army public affairs officers.

The New Republic said it also spoke to five members of Beauchamp's company, all of whom corroborated Beauchamp's anecdotes but requested anonymity.

In the note, the magazine said the incident with the disfigured woman took place in Kuwait, not Iraq. The magazine also said the Army took away Beauchamp's mobile phone and his computer and he "is currently unable to speak to even his family."

The Associated Press has been unable to reach Beauchamp, and the Army said details of the investigation were not expected to be released. "Personnel matters are handled internally; they are not discussed publicly," said Lt. Col. Joseph M. Yoswa, an Army spokesman.

Bob Steele, the Nelson Poynter Scholar for Journalism Values at The Poynter Institute school for journalists in St. Petersburg, Fla., said granting a writer anonymity "raises questions about authenticity and legitimacy."

"Anonymity allows an individual to make accusations against others with impunity," Steele said. "In this case, the anonymous diarist was accusing other soldiers of various levels of wrongdoing that were, at the least, moral failures, if not violations of military conduct. The anonymity further allows the writer to sidestep essential accountability that would exist, were he identified."

Steele said he was troubled by the fact that the magazine did not catch the scene-shifting from Kuwait to Iraq of the incident Beauchamp described involving the disfigured woman.

"If they were doing any kind of fact-checking, with multiple sources, that error ? or potential deception ? would have emerged," Steele said.

He added that he was also troubled by the relationship between Beauchamp and Reeve, his wife, who works at The New Republic. "It raises the possible specter of competing loyalties, which could undermine the credibility of the journalism," he said.

Paul McLeary, a staff writer for Columbia Journalism Review who has written about the matter, said The New Republic failed to do some basic journalistic legwork, such as calling the public affairs officer for Beauchamp's unit.

"There is a degree of trust and faith editors have to put in their writers," McLeary said. "If you're on a tight deadline, you have to go as far as you can. The New Republic definitely didn't go as far as it could in terms of checking out its stories."

This isn't the first time New Republic's credibility has been called into question.

In 1998, the magazine fired Stephen Glass after reports surfaced that he had enhanced a story about computer hackers. Editors at the magazine researched his work and said they found fabrications in 27 of the 41 articles he had written for the publication over three years.
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
20
81
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
link
Army denounces 3 articles written by GI
A magazine gets a hot story straight from a soldier in Iraq and publishes his writing, complete with gory details, under a pseudonym. The stories are chilling: An Iraqi boy befriends American troops and later has his tongue cut out by insurgents. Soldiers mock a disfigured woman sitting near them in a dining hall. As a diversion, soldiers run over dogs with armored personnel carriers. Compelling stuff, and, according to the Army, not true.

Three articles by the soldier have run since January in The New Republic, a liberal magazine with a small circulation owned by Canadian company CanWest Corp. The stories, which ran under the name "Scott Thomas," were called into question by The Weekly Standard, a conservative magazine with a small circulation owned by Rupert Murdoch's News Corp. The Standard last month challenged bloggers to check the dispatches.

Since then, Pvt. Scott Thomas Beauchamp, of the 1st Battalion, 18th Infantry, has come forward as the author. The New Republic said that Beauchamp "came to its attention" through Elspeth Reeve, a reporter-researcher at the magazine he later married.

The Army said this week it had concluded an investigation of Beauchamp's claims and found them false.

"During that investigation, all the soldiers from his unit refuted all claims that Pvt. Beauchamp made in his blog," Sgt. 1st Class Robert Timmons, a spokesman in Baghdad for the 4th Brigade, 1st Infantry Division, based at Fort Riley, Kan., said in an e-mail interview.

The Weekly Standard said Beauchamp signed a sworn statement admitting all three articles were exaggerations and falsehoods.

Calls to Editor Franklin Foer at The New Republic in Washington were not returned, but the magazine said on its Web site that it has conducted its own investigation and stands by Beauchamp's work.

In its note posted Aug. 2, it said, "We checked the plausibility of details with experts, contacted a corroborating witness, and pressed the author for further details. But publishing a first-person essay from a war zone requires a measure of faith in the writer. Given what we knew of Beauchamp, personally and professionally, we credited his report."

After the pieces were questioned, the magazine said it extensively re-reported his account, contacting dozens of people, including former soldiers, forensic experts, war reporters and Army public affairs officers.

The New Republic said it also spoke to five members of Beauchamp's company, all of whom corroborated Beauchamp's anecdotes but requested anonymity.

In the note, the magazine said the incident with the disfigured woman took place in Kuwait, not Iraq. The magazine also said the Army took away Beauchamp's mobile phone and his computer and he "is currently unable to speak to even his family."

The Associated Press has been unable to reach Beauchamp, and the Army said details of the investigation were not expected to be released. "Personnel matters are handled internally; they are not discussed publicly," said Lt. Col. Joseph M. Yoswa, an Army spokesman.

Bob Steele, the Nelson Poynter Scholar for Journalism Values at The Poynter Institute school for journalists in St. Petersburg, Fla., said granting a writer anonymity "raises questions about authenticity and legitimacy."

"Anonymity allows an individual to make accusations against others with impunity," Steele said. "In this case, the anonymous diarist was accusing other soldiers of various levels of wrongdoing that were, at the least, moral failures, if not violations of military conduct. The anonymity further allows the writer to sidestep essential accountability that would exist, were he identified."

Steele said he was troubled by the fact that the magazine did not catch the scene-shifting from Kuwait to Iraq of the incident Beauchamp described involving the disfigured woman.

"If they were doing any kind of fact-checking, with multiple sources, that error ? or potential deception ? would have emerged," Steele said.

He added that he was also troubled by the relationship between Beauchamp and Reeve, his wife, who works at The New Republic. "It raises the possible specter of competing loyalties, which could undermine the credibility of the journalism," he said.

Paul McLeary, a staff writer for Columbia Journalism Review who has written about the matter, said The New Republic failed to do some basic journalistic legwork, such as calling the public affairs officer for Beauchamp's unit.

"There is a degree of trust and faith editors have to put in their writers," McLeary said. "If you're on a tight deadline, you have to go as far as you can. The New Republic definitely didn't go as far as it could in terms of checking out its stories."

This isn't the first time New Republic's credibility has been called into question.

In 1998, the magazine fired Stephen Glass after reports surfaced that he had enhanced a story about computer hackers. Editors at the magazine researched his work and said they found fabrications in 27 of the 41 articles he had written for the publication over three years.

Clearly a conflict in the stories, and we still don't know what the hell happened cuz reputable papers are waiting to get the facts before publishing a story instead of jumping on the drive-by partisan hackery bus.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,052
30
86
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: umbrella39
i'm telling ya if you ignore the troll he will go away
I?ve been trying to ignore Harvey, but he just won?t go away.

I keep hoping you'd do the same. Since you know I'm a mod, at least, you know I save my contempt for you to post under my own name, and I don't abuse my postion against you or others, as some have claimed.

Speaking of trolling? what?s the point of your post?

That's what I've been wondering about everything you post. For someone who claims to be a "conservative," it appears you haven't a clue about the meaning of the word. The word, conservative generally refers to being cautious and deliberative before acting. Why do you only spout off to support your Traitor In Chief and his cabal. They're the most RADICAL criminals ever to hold the executive offices of our nation while thousands of Americans are dying for their lies and they shred the rights guaranteed to all Americans under the U.S. Constitiution?

How in hell can thier criminality be considered conservative? :roll:
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: umbrella39
i'm telling ya if you ignore the troll he will go away
I?ve been trying to ignore Harvey, but he just won?t go away.

I keep hoping you'd do the same. Since you know I'm a mod, at least, you know I save my contempt for you to post under my own name, and I don't abuse my postion against you or others, as some have claimed.

Speaking of trolling? what?s the point of your post?

That's what I've been wondering about everything you post. For someone who claims to be a "conservative," it appears you haven't a clue about the meaning of the word. The word, conservative generally refers to being cautious and deliberative before acting. Why do you only spout off to support your Traitor In Chief and his cabal. They're the most RADICAL criminals ever to hold the executive offices of our nation while thousands of Americans are dying for their lies and they shred the rights guaranteed to all Americans under the U.S. Constitiution?

How in hell can thier criminality be considered conservative? :roll:
Many of us do not view their actions as "criminal." Immoral? Dishonest? Immature? Selfish? Ignorant? perhaps... but given the lack of actual idictments and/or convictions, "criminal" is the wrong word.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,052
30
86
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Many of us do not view their actions as "criminal." Immoral? Dishonest? Immature? Selfish? Ignorant? perhaps... but given the lack of actual idictments and/or convictions, "criminal" is the wrong word.

There are just causes for taking a nation to war. WW II was such a war. We didn't volunteer for it. It came to us on December 7,1941, and we owe an eternal debt of gratitude to all those who died defending our nation.

The Bushwhackos' war in Iraq is NOT a just war. Every sorry excuse for starting it they've fed the American people has been catigorically disproven as lies, deceptions and fabrications. If you still dispute that, either you are incredibly naive, or you are one of the liars.

Under Federal and most state statutes, one definition of murder is committing an act in callous, reckless or wanton disregard or depraved indifference for the safety of others that, in fact, causes the death of another. One foreseeable consequence of war is death... in fact, many deaths. As of 8/9/07 11:04 am EDT, your Traitor In Chief and his criminal cabal have murdered 3,683 American troops (and growing) and left tens of thousands more wounded, scarred and disabled for life in his war of LIES in Iraq.
rose.gif
:(
rose.gif


Assuming your own choice of words, immoral, dishonest, immature, selfish and ignorant, George W. Bush and his administration are guilty of the murder of all of those Americans who have died in Iraq.

All of the American casualties did not occur in one cataclysmic event. They happened over the five years we since the Bushwhackos started their illegal war. If you question whether immoral, dishonest, immature, selfish and ignorant behavior constitutes callous, reckless or wanton disregard or depraved indifference for the safety of others, it begs the question of how many times, and over what period, can one consider excusing their ongoing, repeated acts that continue to raise the number of dead and wounded Americans on a daily basis. At what point does it shock the conscience sufficiently to cross the threshold from being 3,683 cases of mere negligent homicide, which would also be criminal offenses? :shocked:

By any conservative understanding of the statutes against murder, the only possible conclusion is that the Bushwhackos are the worst criminals ever to hold the executive branch of our government. :thumbsdown: :| :thumbsdown:
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Many of us do not view their actions as "criminal." Immoral? Dishonest? Immature? Selfish? Ignorant? perhaps... but given the lack of actual idictments and/or convictions, "criminal" is the wrong word.

There are just causes for taking a nation to war. WW II was such a war. We didn't volunteer for it. It came to us on December 7,1941, and we owe an eternal debt of gratitude to all those who died defending our nation.

The Bushwhackos' war in Iraq is NOT a just war. Every sorry excuse for starting it they've fed the American people has been catigorically disproven as lies, deceptions and fabrications. If you still dispute that, either you are incredibly naive, or you are one of the liars.

Under Federal and most state statutes, one definition of murder is committing an act in callous, reckless or wanton disregard or depraved indifference for the safety of others that, in fact, causes the death of another. One foreseeable consequence of war is death... in fact, many deaths. As of 8/9/07 11:04 am EDT, your Traitor In Chief and his criminal cabal have murdered 3,683 American troops (and growing) and left tens of thousands more wounded, scarred and disabled for life in his war of LIES in Iraq.
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Assuming your own choice of words, immoral, dishonest, immature, selfish and ignorant, George W. Bush and his administration are guilty of the murder of all of those Americans who have died in Iraq.

All of the American casualties did not occur in one cataclysmic event. They happened over the five years we since the Bushwhackos started their illegal war. If you question whether immoral, dishonest, immature, selfish and ignorant behavior constitutes callous, reckless or wanton disregard or depraved indifference for the safety of others, it begs the question of how many times, and over what period, can one consider excusing their ongoing, repeated acts that continue to raise the number of dead and wounded Americans on a daily basis. At what point does it shock the conscience sufficiently to cross the threshold from being 3,683 cases of mere negligent homicide, which would also be criminal offenses? :shocked:

By any conservative understanding of the statutes against murder, the only possible conclusion is that the Bushwhackos are the worst criminals ever to hold the executive branch of our government. :thumbsdown: :| :thumbsdown:
How many charges or indictments have been filed by the Democratic Congress against Bush and Cheney? Just curious...

If there was any merit to criminal allegations, don't you think "your heroes" would have filed a few charges by now?

Like I said, as of today, they are not criminals. I still value the concept of innocent until proven guilty. You can save the rants. (Although I am somewhat impressed that you have the energy to retype that rant 1000 different times using 1000 different sentence structures...)
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: palehorse74
How many charges or indictments have been filed by the Democratic Congress against Bush and Cheney? Just curious...

If there was any merit to criminal allegations, don't you think "your heroes" would have filed a few charges by now?

Like I said, as of today, they are not criminals. I still value the concept of innocent until proven guilty.

Is there any part of BULLSHIT! you don't understand?

In my post, I specifically said they're guilty of the murder of I'll ask you, is there any part of my post that 3,683 American troops in Iraq. Can you refute that?

If not, regardless of what Congress has done about pursuing members of the administration on criminal charges (at least, so far), if you acknowledge the facts, how do you, PERSONALLY, defend them with bullshit rhetoric that they are innocent until proven guilty?

Forget about conviction. Unless you don't give a damn about all those dead and wounded troops, how do you live with yourself? :roll:
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,006
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Originally posted by: palehorse74
How many charges or indictments have been filed by the Democratic Congress against Bush and Cheney? Just curious...

If there was any merit to criminal allegations, don't you think "your heroes" would have filed a few charges by now?

Like I said, as of today, they are not criminals. I still value the concept of innocent until proven guilty. You can save the rants. (Although I am somewhat impressed that you have the energy to retype that rant 1000 different times using 1000 different sentence structures...)

The fact that Bush has ordered programs undertaken that specifically violate federal law is accepted by both sides of the isle as fact. (warrantless wiretapping) Bush himself has admitted to violating the law. This is clearly criminal. So of course there is merit to criminal allegations.

If you think that every time a president commits a crime that he is prosecuted for it though you are woefully naive. Impeachment, etc. are more political maneuvers then they are criminal ones, and the Democrats haven't found it politically expedient (or feasible) to impeach Bush or Cheney. Hell, they can't even seem to get the stones together to impeach Gonzales... which should be a slam dunk. So, don't try to hide behind the fact that they havent been indicted as somehow proof that they haven't broken any laws. It's not that simple when it comes to the president and you know that.

I have plenty of friends in the army, and I think that most people who know army people who have been deployed to combat zones will tell you stories similar to those in the New Republic. Soldiers in the army kill dogs? Of course they do... that's far from unheard of. These dogs are nasty, wild, rabid disgusting things that will frequently attack people. People get to hate them, and they are everywhere. The marines I used to work with talked about killing dogs in Iraq on several different occasions. 18-25 year olds making inappropriate fun of the disfigured? Hell it happens all the time in America, and we aren't under a millionth of the stresses that these guys are. Does anyone really honestly doubt that sort of thing goes on? Soldiers are people just like you and me... of course they mock people in bad taste sometimes. It doesn't make them evil people, it just makes them people.

As far as the child's bones, that one I have no idea on.

All I can say is that if the stories given by Beauchamp in the New Republic are false, there are certainly many many true ones covering the exact same topics, at least for the first two. I also don't buy for a minute the army's internal investigation, or what other soldiers will say when they are forced to go on the record. It would be very unwise for them to coroborate Beauchamp's story with their names on the record, and so I can't say I'm surprised that they didn't.